Who makes the best cars?

Germany- never lost their sense of quality
Japan- Everything you hate about plastic and FWD under one hood
America- Died a slow horrible death, stick with the 70s and below
Britian- Some good, some bad
Italy- They have ferrari...

 

VW has runs shit over toyota and gmc. Spain and Italy don't even come close, I mean Fiat and Ferrari sure but that can't compete with the full VW lineup.

 

Uhhh are you serious? You equate your dislike of Japanese cars with a few cars the Japanese make - which, by the way, are given a bad name simply by the people who choose to drive them. There is nothing wrong with FWD at all - it's better than RWD as far as safety and handling go. You have all of the weight of the engine bearing down on the wheels that receive the power from the engine, so what is wrong with this?

There's a lot more to cars than just racing, but since I am assuming you are talking about that particular area of motorsport, the Japanese are actually extremely relevant.

Have you ever heard of the Toyota 2JZ engine? How about Nissan's RB26? Honda's F22C? Sorry to say it man, but if you don't understand that the Japanese simply build the strongest motors in existence today, then I don't know what to tell you.

Both the RB26 and the 2JZ can see upwards 650 horsepower on stock internals, and, when modified properly, have been known to produce over 1300 at the wheels. The F20 and F22 are equally impressive, bone stock the engine can handle a 9,000 RPM redline, and given the 84mm stroke (quite long), its average piston speed is the highest of any car in the world. Also, it produces the highest specific power output of any n/a 4-banger under $100,000 and is only second overall to the Ferrari 458 Italia. The F20C develops 123.5 horsepower per cylinder, while the 458 produces 124.5.

 

FWD better in safety and handling? Show me one race that's been one by a FWD car. Races are about good handling, and that's exactly why nobody races FWD cars that wants to win. I happen to have a 92 Cutlass Supreme that's FWD and it's the biggest piece of shit when it comes to handling. It can't even turn into a parking spot sharply. But I bring my big ass Expedition and since it's RWD, it can get into a parking spot without problems. And how it's better for safety, I don't even understand?

That's all good and sweet, but show me a Japanese car with those mentioned engines in it. This is a thread called "who makes the best cars?" Not "Who makes the best engines?"

 

SGW!
oh cars,

Germany / Italy imo

 

you can't classify who makes the best cars. cause you have all different kinds. muscle and tuner. car or truck. and it's all based on personal opinion and what it's being used for.

 

You may have missed this part of my statement:

Also, emphasis on cars, because you as kindly pointed out to me:

This thread is called "who makes the best cars?" Not "Who makes the best race cars?"

I pointed out the engines that Japanese car manufacturers make because that's a pretty important part of a car, wouldn't you say? Sorry I didn't cover all of the details, but I don't think my opinion should be rendered invalid because I chose to focus on engines rather than drivetrain in race applications as you did.

FWD is safer in daily driver circumstances than RWD is, are you serious when you say you don't see how? As I said before, the engine places a lot of weight on the front wheels, which is where power goes. It's harder to spin your tires in a FWD car, right? This is simple physics man, with more weight on your tires you literally have more traction. How do you not see that this is safer in cars ? Again, keep in mind we're not talking about race cars, because if we were, I'd say the most important thing is the driver, not the car. I don't see how your experiences in a 92 Cutlass and a Ford Expedition are relevant to racing applications as you were discussing earlier, so I don't see how it is relevant in the least

Also, check this out:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwapwrHgIU]YouTube - new civic type r tsukuba battle[/ame]

Edit: mmmmm

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBgjEC7NrnQ&feature=related"]YouTube- Damn fast DC2 integra Type-R Tuned by Phase (Japan)[/ame]

Are you serious man?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBCPN2jNPDg]YouTube - 850WHP Toyota Supra vs Suzuki GSX-R 1000 Rizla Edition[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7K4aGyPWAk&feature=related]YouTube - Killer supra 760hp incar![/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibuVqlf1u4&feature=related]YouTube - R35 GT-R BATTLE[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDVGjyI6GQ0&feature=related]YouTube - The Stig drives Skyline R34 GT-R in Luleå part 2/2[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5gZF9EeIpY&feature=related]YouTube - Top Secret Skyline: 200Mph through Tokyo tunnel[/ame] (fast-forward to 55 seconds)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3n2XXWjy0&NR=1]YouTube - Sickest VTEC Sound Ever (Integra Type-R modded) 10000U/min[/ame]

Street legal cars that are driveable. See, Americans build cars with horsepower in mind, and forget about all other parts of a car. The Japanese do well at keeping all aspects of a car in mind, and the Germans and various other European countries as well. I just happen to think that Japan is barely, barely #1, followed closely by European rivals. Americans are dead last though.

Also, as a last vid, go 1 minute into this and listen to the sound of that VTEC. Some N/A Honda motors are capable of making power all the way until redline. I've seen turboed ones make power until 9,000, and all-muscle ones make power until 10,000. And most of the internals come forged bone stock, which is a plus, but definitely not exclusive. Evo's have forged rods, and I think most of the internals on the b5 A4's were forged. You can see about 500chp with those engines before you need to swap internals, so I hope you can see the applicability in racing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jze3LAiDxq4&feature=related"]YouTube- integra type-r with a turbo you got to hear the v-tec[/ame]

 

Germany: Good cars, very well built and are very durable. Only problem is; if you live outside of Europe they are very expensive to maintain, but that's not their fault...They're in Germany. BMW, Porchse, Audi. Clearly the best.

Japan: Economically, these guys have it going as the best cars. Honda and Toyota, constantly #1 on EPA MPG; and have among the best loyalty of customers. My parents actually only bought Honda's, heck we used to drive a Honda Accord 2002 model, it had 150,000 miles on it and ran better than more than half American cars that were brand new!

America: Awful..Awful cars, you drive out of the lot and a bumper falls off. Once again my dad used to sell cars and he worked at numerous dealerships (he was a financial manager expert). He said that american cars are of the WORST quality and one time during a showing; they had a brand new model of a Chevy pickup. they claimed it was the best truck and the presenter says "look how durable this is" then taps the bumper with a pointer and it falls off...yeah...american cars = crap

Britain: Small and compact, its suiting for their style of roads like in London. Never driven one really so not sure.

Italy: Ferrari and super cars, Lambo's and more...what more do you need to say.

 

Japan = best value.

Japan has recently lost their way when it comes to sports cars (although the Toyota FT-86, now called FR-S will probably change that) but nothing beats a Japanese sports car of the mid 90's. 300ZX, Supra, Skyline, RX-7, NSX, MR2... all RWD, all amazing value, all outhandle anything American other than a Z06/Viper, and even then RX-7's and R34's are in the same category.

 

That's not an easy question. You give too many things to gauge a response on.

I could argue that German made stuff is crap...I believe it to be unreliable and very expensive not only to buy but to maintain. Especially the new stuff.

Japanese made stuff is cool because they came into the market with something to offer...a lot of car for little money. Very easy to repair, very easy to keep running. Although it's not to say they haven't had their fair share of lame cars.

American cars were great back in the day....They since took a turn in the wrong direction for a while but I think as of late American car manufacturers have started releasing a quality product at a fair price. For those that lost faith, go take another look.

Britain has the capabilities to make a great car but sometimes they are bit lackluster as well. Hit and miss with British car companies I think.

Italian car companies...well, they know how to build a car but again they fall on the same level as german car companies especially since lambo is owned by vw as well as audi seat etc...Ferrari is fancy ford these days sooo I dunno.

 

this is everything I was going to say, said perfectly.



I know I'm a little biased because I myself have an S2000 but my choices between best cars are in between German and Japanese cars. It cant be argued that Japan has come out with a few new badass sports cars. The R35 is giving Porsche a run for their money, and less cost. Now granted you can spend more on a GT2 and blow most cars out of the water, But your going to spend a shit ton more money. The new toyota is killing it on the track, but they are very expensive.

to sum it all up you have to pay to play. You can Get a Supra or skyline for 40,000 is great condition and spend another 40k making it a badass race car, or for instant you can spend a little more and get a Porsche GT3 for example. It all depends on what you want and how much money you have, plain and simple.

 

This is just not true. Once you factor in weight transfer from acceleration the "weight over the wheels" argument goes out the window. It is EASIER to lose traction in an FWD. If you have ever punched it in a FWD off the line on a rainy day you will see what I mean. Weight transfers to the rear......and youre spinnin.

Then you have the fact that most FWDs have a significant weight bias towards the front end. If you have a significant weight bias to either end handling is affected negatively...... this is why most engineers of high performance cars will shoot for 50/50 bias.

You also have the front end trying to accomplish moving the car forward,slowing it down (most of your braking is done with the front wheels) as well as steering......alot to ask of them tires.

RWD is superior to FWD in every way....the only reason they use FWD is because it is cheaper to manufacture.

 

I'd have to go with Japan just because of reliability. Man, that they got that shit right. Germans got some good stuff, no doubt about that, but if something goes wrong you are paying out the ass to fix that shit.

 

Find me a STOCK Japanese car that can beat a STOCK Corvette ZR1 and I'll gladly retract everything I've said.

 

Not gonna happen because of the 280HP gentleman's law in Japan.

The point is that Japanese cars have higher POTENTIAL, and tuning is something fun that makes the car a great value. ZR1's are over 100k... buy any Japanese sports car for under 20k (RX-7, Supra, NSX, R33), put 40k into it and you'll have a race car that will beat a ZR1 for half the price.

ZR1's are damn fast though... Japan needs to get back on the sports car game if they want to be taken seriously. GT-R is nice but it doesn't compete well with ZR1... though it is MUCH cheaper, has less power, etc.

Believe it or not fully tuned Skyline R34's/RX-7's are faster than fully tuned GTRs... Mine's R34 vs. ZR1 would be a better comparison. You also have to keep in mind that the US government prevents the better models of Japanese cars to come to the US specifically to protect shitty American manufacturers from competition... no late model NSX, RX-7, R34, S15...

 

fwd cars have the worst possible set up for traction or handling. sure you can make up a bit for it with a good suspension, but its still fwd. rwd, awd, rr, and mr are always going to be better handling and better launching than fwd.


and why does everyone think you need to throw like 40 or 50 thousand into a turbo 4 or 6 cylinder just to make it fast? take a 1jz, 2jz, RB, 4g63, VQ-TT, or 6G72, then invest $1000 on a huge ass diesel turbo, $500-1000 for a decent FMIC kit, $1000 on a brand new standalone system, $500-800 for a clutch, and another $1000-1500 for the fuel system and the car can put out over 500whp easily. add another 100 or 200hp if its a 6 cylinder.

 

Ford GT Twin Turbo

Power:
850 - 1000+ HP
850 - 1000 lb-ft Torque

Estimated Performance:
0-60: 2.6 sec.
1/4 mile: 10.6 @ 142 mph
Top Speed: 240 mph


shelby super snake 725 hp stock

BOOM

 

I don't understand how I can say something two times and people still don't get it. There's a **** LOT **** more to cars than racing. Is this understandable? Please let me know you have read and understood this so that we may continue.

Okay, now that you understand, I'll agree with you: in racing applications when you're going to do clutch drops and pedal-to-the-medal type racing, RWD wins over FWD. But you have to heel-toe around corners so the weight transfer doesn't fuck you over either, whereas on FWD cars you can control it much easier.

High performance cars also use carbon ceramic brakes with multiple pistons, triple plated clutches, carbon fiber, all-aluminum internals, etc etc. We're not talking about high performance specifically, we're talking about general cars, and I still maintain that FWD is more practical, safer, and more usable to every-day drivers than RWD is, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with any racing application at all. None. Otherwise, I'd be singing a different tune.

Okay, how about a Skyline GT-R?

Top Gear test track - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GT-R: 1.19.7
ZR1: 1.20.4

Also, I hope you know that you're talking about something that is totally irrational. The Japanese don't build bone stock cars with tons of horsepower, they build cars with realistic goals in mind. While not having driven a ZR1, I've driven a Z06, and honestly, I really didn't feel comfortable. Yeah, it was fast, yeah it hits 60mph in 1st gear and yeah you can spin the tires in 2nd going 70mph, but as soon as you take it around a corner you really start to feel scared. All of that power from that monstrous engine coming through the back two wheels makes it very easy to spin out. Trust me on this man, I'm not a newbie when it comes to racing, and the way I see it is, the ZR1 is completely impractical unless you're going in a straight line.

This is why the Japanese do not brag about building 200mph cars. When will you ever get the chance to hit 200mph unless you're going in a straight line? I guarantee you most Japanese performance cars have that capacity yet it is not actualized in the factory-released version, because it is totally impractical, unnecessary, and it's all just for talk. Look at the NSX, look at the GT-R, look at the Evo, the STi, and so on.

It's not as easy as that man, there are a lot of peripheral parts that need to be accounted for with a lot of 4-banger and 6-cyl engines. You need a turbo-back exhaust, new injectors, new fuel pump, new brakes, new brake lines, a larger MAF, a larger intake, maybe a new exhaust manifold, engine mounts, transmission mounts, and most definitely a new suspension, otherwise your car is going to feel like it's on the water when that engine tries to jump out of the hood.

You could definitely do a cheap tune-job for a few thousand bucks, but it's not worth it in the long run. You don't want to be stingy on a high-performance car, because they demand quite a bit, and if you don't give it exactly what it wants, it's going to fuck with you. I've seen differentials literally break off cars as they're trying to lay down 600hp on the rear tires from a dead stop. Obviously, with AWD, that isn't going to happen, but that just means you better have some damn good mounts and some really nice control arms, sway bars, springs, shocks, and so on and so forth.

 

Also, saying "stock ZR1" is not really valid, because a ZR1 is a tuned Z06, and Japan has many companies that do this. In fact, it's not exclusive to Japan, what do you think AMG is to Mercedes? RennSport to Audi? Mugen to Honda? Let's take a look at Mine's R34 Skyline, which you can buy "stock" just like you can buy a "stock" Z06 ... that happens to be tuned with a supercharger

YouTube - MINE'S R34 Skyline GT-R - RB Japanese Muscle - Hot Version International

That car has a twin GT25 setup, which is absolutely weaksauce.





GT25s are small-frame turbos, meant for quick spool but not high-end power. I drove a Jetta with a GT25R and that thing had full boost by 2,500, but it tapered off starting around ~6, yet the team at Mine's managed to get these tiny ass turbos to hold their power until redline which is right around 9,000. It helps that both turbines have to compress at lower pressure, but it's also quite taxing in terms of heat. It takes an all-around approach to upgrading a stock car in order to make it phenomenal, not just throwing a supercharger on a gargantuan engine that already has more torque than it knows how to handle.

YouTube - 907HP Audi S4....

Count the gears:

1st maxes out at 40mph
2nd maxes out at 70mph
3rd maxes out at 110mph
4th maxes out at 140mph

This is a twin GT28RS setup on an S4, which comes stock with a twin turbo 2.7L V6. Impressive stuff, minus the fact that the engine isn't built quite as sturdy as the Japanese alternatives (2JZ and RB26), but nevertheless, this thing is a fucking animal. Keep in mind, though, we're still in the mid-size turbo range, and a single turbo on an A4 that I've driven produced roughly 300 to the wheels. It's a Stage 3 upgrade from APR essentially, but with a twin setup, he managed to get something like 962 ponies at the wheels and 1062ftlbs of torque at the wheels. That's enough to make you have to hold your breath when he's flooring it, otherwise you may not be able to breathe

But yeah, seriously man, there's so many companies that work in tandem with Japanese car manufacturers, and they build on top of the engines. Corvettes are already specifically made for performance, so you obviously can't compare it with a Civic.

Also, if you want to see the potential of Japanese cars maximized, you have to look at companies that re-assemble the pieces and add on some stuff. Like this, for example:

YouTube - 430 horsepower, 0-60 mph 3.8 secs Subaru Impreza WRX STI T25

Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txnsy1e08zw

mmmm delicious. Except the FQ-400 isn't the best-modified Evo you can get.