This model forecast the US's current unrest a decade ago. It now says 'civil war'

Discussion in 'Pandora's Box' started by Vee, Jul 5, 2020.

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    In the early 1990s, when Bill Clinton was in the White House and the United States looked unshakeable, the administration appointed Jack Goldstone to study how states fail. They meant other states; not the US.
    Few expected that his model would later predict their country's collapse.


    In an unpublished paper submitted for peer review, Professor Goldstone, who is a sociologist, and Peter Turchin, an expert on the mathematical modelling of historical societies, have concluded that the US is "headed for another civil war".

    The conditions for civil violence, they say, are the worst since the 19th century — in particular the years leading up to the start of the American Civil War in 1861.

    The reason for this are trends that began in the 1980s, "with regard to inequality, selfish elites, and polarisation that have crippled the ability of the US government to mount an effective response to the pandemic disease," they write.

    This has also "hampered our ability to deliver an inclusive economic relief policy, and exacerbated the tensions over racial injustice."

    Professor Goldstone is a leading authority on the study of revolutions and long-term social change at George Mason University. The model developed by him and Peter Turchin tracks such data as the ratio of median workers' wages to GDP per capita, life expectancy, average heights, and the number of new millionaires. It also measures political polarisation or the degree of overlap between the parties.

    Applied to US history, it 'predicts' the 1861 Civil War and the unrest of the 1930s — a time of Jim Crow segregation, Gilded Age inequality, and fascism.

    Ten years ago, Professor Turchin pointed his model towards the future, and made an uncannily accurate prediction. Just like in the 1850s, crisis indicators were rising, he wrote in the journal Nature. They could be a reliable indicator of looming instability and "look set to peak in the years around 2020," he wrote.
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    Speaking from his home in Virginia on Monday — the day before a member of an armed militia shot a protester beneath a statue of a conquistador in New Mexico — Professor Goldstone described these predictions as "scary as hell".

    "The general feeling is horror," he said.

    'Collapse happens slowly and then very suddenly'
    In fact, the present disorder was forecast as far back as 1991. In the book Revolution and Rebellion in the Early Modern World, Professor Goldstone used an early version of his model to predict the rise of a leader similar to President Trump.

    It came down to population changes, Professor Goldstone argued. The American population surged after World War II — the Boomer generation born in a time of relative peace and plenty. As this massive cohort aged and accrued wealth, they could make the country vulnerable to political crisis. But this would only happen, he wrote, if the elites did three things: tighten up the path to mobility to favour themselves and their children (like increasing the cost of university); dampen wage growth and claim a greater share of economic gains for themselves; and resist taxation so that government is starved of needed revenues.

    As it turned out, this is exactly what would happen over the following three decades.

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    At the non-profit Fund for Peace in Washington DC, the Fragile States Index tracks data such as the state of public services and income inequality and assigns countries a score indicating its resilience or ability to cope with shocks. It's been running the index since 2000, and in the last few years the US's position has steadily worsened. Charles Fiertz, a programs manager at the fund, told Hack that, although the index was not designed to make predictions, he had noticed some interesting correlations.

    "In 2016, when the Trump election and the Brexit referendum happened, we looked back and found that the US, along with the UK, was actually one of the most worsened countries in the world over the preceding several years in the indicators of group grievance and factionalised elites," he said.
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    These trends in the indicators have continued in recent years, Mr Fiertz says. Looking at other countries that have collapsed, he sees a pattern of several indicators steadily worsening before a sudden shock "overwhelms the system".

    "It could be a pandemic or a loss in a war or perceived abuse by public security forces," he said.

    "And normally, prior to this worsening process, a country would be able to adapt to, to deal with that. But because of this long-term buildup of vulnerabilities, it cannot."

    "It happens slowly and then very suddenly."

    Whichever side loses could dispute election outcome
    Professor Goldstone predicts the real problems will begin after July 31, when Americans' $600 a week COVID-19 unemployment welfare expires.

    "Social tensions likely continue to grow as we move to November," he said.

    "The risks of violence in November are very high."

    November is the US presidential election — now less than five months away. As the big date nears, the tone of predictions are darkening. Both Republicans and Democrats see a loss as a cataclysm — not just a setback, but the end of America. Four more years of Trump would 'destroy democracy', one side says. The other claims that Biden would destroy the economy as well as 'law and order'. The Trump campaign has launched an 'Army for Trump' website to "recruit and mobilise Americans ... committed to fighting to re-elect President Trump."

    "There's a real risk that, if the election is close, whichever side loses will be strongly motivated to mobilise people to challenge the result," Professor Goldstone said.

    "That could mean putting people in the streets."
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    There's another scenario: The protests calm down, Biden wins easily in November, Trump accepts the result, as do his supporters, and the country makes a peaceful transition to Democratic Party leadership. Unfortunately, this is "low probability", Professor Goldstone says. The chances of violence are higher.

    "The fissures in our society that led to the last outpouring of protest are deep-rooted and have been around for a long time," he said.

    "The concerns about racial injustice, gender discrimination, and severe economic and material inequality have been building for many decades.

    "COVID-19 like the 2009 housing crisis has exacerbated these differences."

    Could this mean a revolution? No, he says. The population of the United States is relatively aged and unlikely to be carried away by ideological fervour. Enough people would prefer to have leadership settled by election results rather than battles in the street. There's a chance, he says, of something like Ukraine's Orange Revolution. In 2004, after an election perceived to be marred by fraud and corruption, huge peaceful protests occupied central areas of the major cities and demanded a revote. When this took place, and the election was declared fair and free, the bloodless revolution was over.

    This has never happened in the US. A presidential election has never been re-run.

    "If we see an upsurge of violent protest and the election results are disputed the Democratic and Republican congressional leaders may try and get together across the party lines and maybe even justices of the Supreme Court," Professor Goldstone said.

    "They'll say that, 'We feel that we need to stop a popular battle in the streets over who will lead our third branch — the Executive — and we need to have a new election to satisfy everyone that the government is legitimate.'

    "Then they'd schedule an election in January."

    Can it be turned around?
    Some fragile states are able to turn themselves around, Charles Fiertz says.

    "It requires a lot of investment over a long time and across a whole bunch of different areas, but it can be done," he said.

    Professor Goldstone points to the 1930s, when President Herbert Hoover was leading the US at a time of growing fascism and democratic failure around the world. In the midst of the Great Depression, he was succeeded by Franklin D. Roosevelt, who tilted the economic balance away from the corporations and the wealthy.

    "It wasn't easy and it didn't all magically go away in one term," Professor Gladstone said.

    "He put the US in a position of global leadership rather than isolation — and led the defence of democracy around the world."

    The professor, who grew up in the 1950s, in the shadow of Roosevelt's achievement, sees a "new wave of progressivism" in the mass peaceful protests of the Black Lives Matter movement. He believes the present has also brought out the best in some Americans.

    "There's something good in America that's still very much alive," he said.

    "There's good as well as bad going on at the same time — and we always hope the good will win."

    (This model forecast the US's current unrest a decade ago. It now says 'civil war')
     
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  2. I don't trust Clinton's buddy Goldstone.

    There will not be a civil war again. The self flaggelating college girls in the streets protesting will realize that their daddy was right at some point. They'll go home and so will the simpering beta males following them around. If the election goes either way, people will accept it. I think there would be more tantrums and destruction if Trump won re-election than if he lost. The left here is much more prone to tantrums and destruction...
     
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  3. I don't know what to expect. I definitely don't expect anything near the civil war of the 19th century but shit can get crazy. I think the article makes a good point about covid unemployment payments ending at the end of the month. I personally have benefitted from that and they are giving us like 600 a month for food stamps too. So yeah, when I, and millions of others, are down $3000 a month (600 a week in unemployment and 600 a month in food stamps) it is going to have a huge impact on peoples lives. Luckily for me I landed two jobs starting the week after the stimulus ends, but I don't think that is the norm.

    I personally have always wondered if/when America's dominance will end and part of me wonders if this is the beginning of the end. There is potential for this to trigger so many things its hard for me to pretend I have an accurate prediction.

    I think you are right about these protesting girls. They remind me of Dead Heads from about 10-15 years ago - the most entitled, privileged people on the face of the Earth trying to act like they stand in opposition to society while their parents supply them travel money.
     
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  4. .....the real problems will begin after July 31, when Americans' $600 a week COVID-19 unemployment welfare expires.
    What ....? I get nil thats ok I don't want any help from youknowwho, so long as I'm free
     
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  5. LOL!

    Holy shit - i wish that were the case.

    while their government supplies them with $3,000.00/mo

    hehehe

    j
     
  6. I don't want a civil war but I can see our society heading that direction in it's current state.

    A civil war will benefit nobody.

    Today's Forcast... Partly Cloudy With A Chance Of Amber.
     
  7. I've been telling my American friends to calm down a bit for a while now, but when I warn of escalating conflict, it gets laughed at.

    If this comes, there will be too many who can't imagine it possible
     
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  8. Let's just hope this isn't true! If it is whats the war going to be about? North and South, racism, right vs left, rich vs poor? I'm from the northeast and im surrounded by all types. How would anyone know who's on who's side?

    For fucks sake why cant we all just get along man? Idk maybe a complete wipe and reset will be what's needed for people to live for the future and not for themselves
     
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  9. A complete reset is a horrible idea. As bad as the self flaggelating college girls in the streets believe the US is, it is actually the best system for preserving individual liberty ever created. It was created with human nature in mind. When you say people aught to live for the future and not for themselves, do you think changing human nature is an option? A complete reset followed by everyone living for eachother and the future sounds like a rose colored communist revolution to me.
     
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  10. This is ...Fact not written up by partisan journos but a leading sociologist and a mathematical modeller contracted by Clinton etc to study other countries failures relizing its happening to yours

    please leave politics to the polictal subforum here we are discussing the imploding of your nation

    the authors Jack Goldstone - Wikipedia Peter Turchin - Wikipedia

    thank you
     
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  11. in agreement here, not all recent american immigrants to Sweden blame Trump more the society and values
     
  12. Exactly. People who feel like everything in western civilization need to change have a naïve idea of what that actually means, nevermind that this whole idea of grouping all people by group or class (privilege) is exactly the mistake that every failed and catastrophic communist revolution has done.

    My biggest gripe with radicals these days is that there is no specific plan or policy that is under attack. It's just this persuasive systemic injustice. Communist China and USSR should be clear examples of what happens when people decide to just impose immediate social change.

    I think the clear sign that this current social movement is of no challenge to western society or the true "ruling class" is the fact that pretty much every slave driving corporation is behind it. Amazon, Starbucks, and name so many other corporation are not threatened at all by a movement that is based on generalities but if people started talking about how the destruction of unions has been one of the most detrimental things that has happened to black middle class, and middle class America in general, you would see these companies fall back real quick, because suddenly they would be responsible. Or how about the war on drugs? - which I think dozens of noble prize nominees have declared the detrimental economic policy in the world. How do you think corporate America would feel about specific policy issues to raise the standard or living for employees of these companies and of people of other countries that are forced to work for crumbs because of our failed policies.

    I guess what I am saying is is that making all this about race is actually no threat because all some rich privileged employer needs to do is say "black lives matter" and they're off the hook. They're one of the good guys. Anyways. I got a little emotional there and went on a tangent.
     
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  13. Hehe, notice how NONE of the Warhawks that used to be in office are saying shit about going to war? They have all turned their gaze to the inside, to the self... Not only will there absolutely be a civil war, but there are systems in place for people to profit off of it AND these same people will have no qualms in fleeing to China to hide... Hillary already sold a lot of US intelligence secrets to the Chinese reportedly and has had dealings with infamous Chinese figures.

    For those of you who have never watched this documentary, I PLEAD with you to watch it, its a detailed account of the Clinton's INCREDIBLY shady background, dating back before Bill ever held office in Arkansas.
     
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  14. When exactly will this be?
     
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  15. That depends when whoever is funding Antifa decides to give them a shit load of money
     
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  16. Oh. I thought you were serious for a minute.
     
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  17. Antifa is cropping up all over the planet, not just an American thing anymore.
     
  18. Who the hell is Antifa anyway? I see this all the time. Black Lives Matter is an organization that has a leader, different chapters, etc. Who is the leader of Antifa? Do people just go around saying they are part of this? Do they have regular meetings like BLM does?
     
  19. #19 jerry111165, Jul 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
    Its high schoolers who werent good enough to be Ninjas and had jumped the gun and already bought black outfits.

    So they all got together and decided they didnt want to waste the $29.95 black ninja uniforms and not they go around throwing rocks through store windows.

    I’ve heard their leader is Jackie Chan.

    edit: And they dont really call them meetings - they’re usually referred to as “Pep Rallies”...

    ;)
    j
     
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  20. Do you think theres 300 of them yet?

    j
     
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