The Welfare State

Prelude:
Anytime the government spends money it's a tax on the American people. The tax will either be direct or indirect, treasurer sells bonds to the FED. A bond is a promise to tax the shit out of the American people to pay back any debt the US Government accumulated. Uncle Sam doesn't have a job at the local grocery store, to pick up additional revenue, he extorts the american people.

We live in a society where it's becoming socially acceptable to accept welfare or wanting a welfare state. Let's look at the indoctrination process of these communist ideology that are being nurtured by the educational institutions across the United States.

"Free" University:

University is an expensive investment in one's future. A degree doesn't guarantee anything.

The reality:

The majority of students will take a loan out to attend a private (expensive) University. The majority of students selecting University are picking schools that would give them bragging rights around their peers. Normally those University are predators that will offer small scholarships that cover a tiny percentage of the tuitions luring students to attend their school. Majority of students will also use government assistance both Fed and State subsidies in conjunctions with the incentives offered by the school; However given those additional discounts it's never enough for the average student and the need for a student loan is usually required.

Students take a large loan out to bankroll their educational journey. This in itself is not a bad thing. A loan is simply strings attach to the money; this provides stability in the form of an incentive to work hard do well to earn a degree and use that degree to find a decent paying job, to eventually pay off your debt. Certain banks are predators they often will offer students loans at exorbitant interest rate, but that in itself is not a bad thing, students that accept those loans displays a lack of work ethic in research, that should be a sign that perhaps college may not be for you.

Irresponsibility
Students are now in an environment that is not supervised by their parents. Majority of students decide to live up to the ideas of college one see on TV or heard stories from elders. Majority of these students will party, drink, drugs, sex, experiments (all fun things) However students that made these poor choices are either mom or dad trust fund or for the majority has a student loan. Note: Not all students participate in this behavior.

Poor Decisions:
Majority of students that don't research the sustainability of college majors and decide Philosophy(not STEM) is the ideal major, because it makes them happy, These are the students that don't research the trends in the job market and the faint voice of their high school guidance counselor's advice "do whatever makes you happy" reconfirm their decision. We have a large amount of student population that are not majoring in STEM what is ideal for the job market.

Harsh reality:
Students argue the need to have "free" university, wanting hardworking americans to be taxed to pay for their irresponsibility and poor decisions. I think it's not fair to those that did everything right and are debt free. I don't think it's fair to the person that understood university isn't for him/her and found a trade such as mechanic, plumber, electrician, and/or welder started a mid class family and now have to pay additional taxes to flip the bill for the reckless decisions of these students.


The same students that want welfare makes an illogical argument that providing free education will help sustain the job market in the future, forgetting a degree doesn't guarantee anything and simply attending school doesn't mean you understand the substance. The reality: having self control and an excellent work ethic is usually what is needed from the indiviual to succeed.


Free HealthCare

Sounds like an awesome idea! however let's look at the reality:

I personally don't want to be taxed for other people's poor health choices and genetics.


American themselves have poor diets that consists of fatty foods not to mention a lifestyle that is sedentary. We will also have to considered the genetics of the indiviual health history that plays a factor in one's health.

Unlike many countries that have "Free HealthCare" America is a country that consists of people from all over the world and with such diversity also comes health problems. The reality diseases and illness are racist. Certain races are more susceptible to certain illness.

Granted Free Healthcare still sounds fairly nice, but it's an infringement on one's liberty. Given the reality of genetics, lifestyle, and diet it's not a fair assessment that we have to pay for other individual health care coverage.



I think having health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals compete across the country would bring health insurance down, remove government subsidies to the healthcare industry, remove all mandates and enforcing the laws of price fixing would be a better alternative.


I also wouldn't mind a government option of free healthcare it it wasn't a mandatory tax meaning. If you participate in the program you'll be taxed. If you're not participating you won't be taxed. I don't think that ponzi scheme will last long, because the majority of responsible individuals would simply opt out.


We live in a strange time where many of americans are outright lazy and expect the government to take care of themselves. We have individuals that live off the government and it's socially acceptable to demand the government pay for everything. I think it's damaging to the survival of the american principles that made this country so great.

 

I disagree, considering in my youth I spent the majority of my time preparing for my future. I think privatizing medicare and medicaid would be most ideal. I don't need an entire country to take care of me.

 

Yea, but thats not what im saying. I think you're interpetation of my response is not accurate and no i didnt poorly communicate my response.

I never spoke for others, i can only speak for myself. I have been prepping for sometime. I take care of my health and my vegetarians diets, running marthons, and gentics are fairly well. However i take precautions throught implementing preventable care.

I havr insurance through my employer and i stack gold and silver to ensure i will have a reasonable finance in elderly age.

I also save my greenback as well. I dony invest in any stocks includong 401k and i also have a side hustle which i stack bread.


I dont know what in my future, but im taking all preventive steps. I ensure in my late or sickly age i will have enough to support myself.



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Yes i have already established that prior and didnt need you to reinitiate something that has already been established by me.

Furthermore I have already stated my thoughts and stand by my thoughts. I dont spend time away from my family for the health and well being for others.

Health is a personal issue that takes individuals responsibility. Its not fair that other people have tp assume the responsibility for those that dont care about their health until the aftermath.

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1) "yes, i've read your "established thoughts". so let me try to be more eloquent. the world doesn't revolve around you"


I'm fully aware the world doesn't revolve around me, but I should not be expected to pay for others health care considering healthcare in itself is a personal responsibility. Obviously this may not be a warming statement, but reality is harsh, it's incumbent on the indiviual. We live in a world where we're overpopulated as it is given the limited resources. Sickness and Illness isn't necessary a bad thing it helps regulate our food supply. Yes, that sounds really horrible, but that reality; that's natural selection. I take preventive steps to ensure I will survive.

I spend time away from my families for my family and friends, not for others. I cannot control other people's addictions, mental illness, genetics, or lifestyle, only the individuals that faces these problems can makes changes. I don't want to be taxed to pay for other people's poor life choices or genetics, that's not my burden, I have my own burden and responsibility that need my resources.

Furthermore you don't know anything about me and what I do:

A) I run marathons for Cancer; considering I have family members that has cancer.
B) I donate Platelets and Blood.
C) I volunteer for charity with my mom at my local church.



2) "there are other people in this country who might be faced with unfortunate situation that have nothing to do with preventative measures."


There are other people in this WORLD do i have to be tax to give a portion to those as well? Where does this end?


What does other people have to do with me? That's ludacris so your communist mentality is indicating that I should work and tax a portion of my paycheck and it should go to some overweight person who has diabetes, because they can't stop eating jelly donuts?

I'm sorry, that's not my responsibility; besides that's call natural selection.


3) "just for fun: do you know how much a single dose of cancer medication can cost?
The High Cost of Cancer Drugs and What We Can Do About It
"The cost: $120,000 for 4 doses." ... obviously not all of them cost that much, but you'd be shit out of luck with your preparations unless you have a few extra millions stashed under you mattress.
it's good that we have something like the government-sponsored 340B program.
god forbid one of your loved ones gets into a car accident and needs extensive surgery, hospital care and physical therapy.

all of a sudden you'd be singing a very different tune."


I have two aunts that has cancer, one has breast cancer and the other has cancer in her foot. Don't insinuate that I have no clue, that's insulting to what my family and I have been through.

My aunts having cancer is natural selection, that's the harsh reality and it took me sometime to realize that fact; obviously it hurts, but that's an internal struggle. I understand the cost of Chemo and the Medication that drains families, fortunately both my aunts have insurance through their employers which shoulder the majority of cost.

I'm fully aware other people don't have insurance through their employers that would assist in cost, and that's extremely sad, but that's not my family responsibility. We run marathons, we donate, and we volunteer I don't understand why I should be forced to pay other people health care.


My brother works as a Pharmacist and discuss that more government gets involved in healthcare the more expensive health care is going to cost. Insurance companies and pharmaceuticals will charge the highest prices when they're aware the government is involved.

Your idea is highly flawed you don't want to fix the problem, you just want to write a blank check to these crooks in healthcare within pharmaceutical and insurance company industry. You're communist mentality is part of the problem.

Here is one example of you protecting the highly inflated cost of healthcare:

"Why does Gleevec, a leukemia drug that costs $70,000 per year in the United States, cost just $2,500 in India?

It's seemingly simple. Gleevec is under patent in the U.S., but not in India. Accordingly, Novartis, its Swiss-based manufacturer, may prevent competitors from making and selling lower-cost versions of the drug in the U.S., but not in India."

Why Chemotherapy That Costs $70,000 in the U.S. Costs $2,500 in India

You know nothing substantial about healthcare and it's worries me that people like you are out there and don't do the research needed to realize "welfare for all" is a bad idea especially when mandates and much needed reform can drive down the cost of healthcare. In this example a leukemia treatment cost 70,000 dollars in the US, bc of a patent that won't be able to generate a generic drug. 2,500 is still substantially high, but it's manageable.



Furthermore we never had my plan fully implemented: "Having health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals compete across the country would bring health insurance down, remove government subsidies to the healthcare industry, remove all mandates and enforcing the laws of price fixing would be a better alternative."

So how would you know it would fail? You don't even understand the mere complexity of healthcare and besides you're are being disingenuous, because it doesn't fit your narrative for welfare for all.

 

1) "if you are so heartless that this is your point of view, then there's really no reason to discuss this any further"

Please don't insult me, because i'm analytical.

2) "running for cancer and paying medical bills are two different things."

Oversimplification, because you lack work ethic to read my detailed response. Something I mentioned in my initial response. I forgot I'm dealing with someone who cares more about his/her personal image over an online resource than an honest discussion about healthcare. You can leave the dialogue, bc you disagree with facts.

3) "btw, your two aunts that have employer based coverage are also getting it subsidized through the employer via governmental programs including tax cuts to the employer. (talk about lack of knowledge of how this "system" works)."

Lol, How do you know that for sure? How do you even know their in this country? You know nothing about me Stop insinuating. You call me heartless and you're attacking my family that has cancer that's insulting.

4) "it's a strange view, if one is going to live in this country, enjoy all the benefits of our infrastructure, military and economy, but would not be willing to spend a measly 25% of the total 33% (which the government steals from you) to help a Veteran with PTSD... or say that your aunt dying is "natural selection" well, i don't know what else do i need to know about you. think it's pretty clear the type of person you are."

Thank You Perfect example look how poor veteran care is? my cousin who has severe PTSD that served in the NAVY hates the vet hospital, because of lack of care. I don't want to pay that money for shitty services, bc the government is going to half ass health care.

Furthermore You haven't address the reality that you just want to write a blank check to the corrupt healthcare industry, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies without proper reform, simply to provided welfare for all.

You haven't address issues such as:

"Why does Gleevec, a leukemia drug that costs $70,000 per year in the United States, cost just $2,500 in India?

It's seemingly simple. Gleevec is under patent in the U.S., but not in India. Accordingly, Novartis, its Swiss-based manufacturer, may prevent competitors from making and selling lower-cost versions of the drug in the U.S., but not in India."

Why Chemotherapy That Costs $70,000 in the U.S. Costs $2,500 in India


The reality health care is a personal responsibility and is solely dependent upon the indiviual.

 

1)"heartless is not an insult, it's a fact based on your statements."

It's not a fact it's your opinion, You don't know the difference between an opinion and facts? LOL



2) "because unlike you, i actually know about some basics of how our healthcare system works. i also know what get back from the government"

You're making a claim that you know how healthcare work, but you don't recognize the mere amount of bureaucracy within our own health care system that actually bankrupts people. You cannot change the reality that you want to write a blank check to the corrupt healthcare industry.


3) "btw, if your aunts don't live in the US, then why are you bringing up their situation as an example?
you said that your aunt's cancer is "natural selection" and you're accusing me of being insulting? (think about what you write)."

Yes, you mentioned cancer, I have family memebers that have cancer, I was addressing the insinuations that you made about the cost of cancer being that I have no clue. You're wrong, because you base your arguments on emotions and jump to conclusions about people without fact or without knowing them.


4) "no now on top of two aunts with cancer you have a cousin with PTSD (did he serve in the US navy?)."

Yes, her served in the US Navy, but now you're attacking my family and I
; and not the argument, because you don't have an argument.

- You cited Veterans Care,
- I made the argument of how horrible veterans care is actually is.
- You ran away from this argument.



5) "at least there is some support that is offered, it's shitty, but it's helping many people.
it's an interesting logic where you don't want to pay taxes for these things, but are more than happy to make donations..."

I don't mind justified taxes, I disagree with free healthcare for all. I think if you serve you should have the best healthcare the same as those crooked congress and senators. I just don't think everyone in the USA should have free healthcare, considering it's a personal responsibility.


6) "so are you ok or not with paying for shitty service? because those donations eventually wind up in the same bank account."

You don't know that for a fact. Once again you're merely guessing no tangible evidence nor facts are presented just like the baseless arguments and emotional rants from a positions to grand stand on morality. LOL



7) "what do you want me to address here? the whole thing is explained to you in the article.
patented medications are very expensive. because it can cost hundreds of millions to bring medication from concept (i.e. do actual r&d) to production.
generics are way cheaper to produce and manufacture because no r&d is required, thus the gigantic cost difference."

I want you to acknowledge the reality that you're wrong. That the cost of healthcare is highly inflated by bureaucracy within the united states. I supported and defended my claims with evidence yet you spend the entire time attacking my character and my family.

7) "perhaps you should look into counterfeit drug problem in india, before you start bringing that as an example of something tangible or even relevant."

Once again, if you would stop the assumptions and actually read you would realize the article mentioned simply laws from governments are attributed to the cost of healthcare.



People like you that has this childish mentality that wants welfare and are pushing a communist agenda don't understand the harm you're actually doing to the people that live in this country.

You want to simply write a blank check to the corrupt healthcare industry by the american people. That's disgusting you haven't provided any tangible or plan to reform the industry. I stand my plan:

Having health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals compete across the country would bring health insurance down, remove government subsidies to the healthcare industry, remove all mandates and enforcing the laws of price fixing would be a better alternative.

 

1) "it's impossible to have a discussion with you... you read very selectively."

No, I'm analytical.

2) "i never said "free healthcare for everyone", i have never disagreed that there is an ungodly amount of bureaucracy involved in the healthcare industry today."

What are you advocating? Aren't you advocating for more bureaucracy; considering you want more goverment involvement in healthcare. Now, You're claiming you're not for "free healthcare" and you understand theirs an "ungodly amount of bureaucracy"

What exactly is your position?

I think you're simply just making baseless arguments and emotional rants from a positions to grandstand on morality. Considering you haven't put forth any substantive response, but merely attacking my character calling me "heartless" and then claim that in itself to be a fact, when in reality you don't understand the difference between an opinion and fact.



3) "secondly, i simply don't feel like typing a response to every one of your strange thoughts."


Simple ... Don't Respond. I created this thread to have a discussion about the welfare state, but you haven't brought forward any reasonable opinions, ideas, or discussion besides morality of healthcare for all.


4) "that said, your magnificent plan has so many issues, i'm not really surprised nobody else had thought of implementing it."

You haven't criticize my ideas up until this very sentence, just my morality, family, and character.

5) "first of all insurance companies do compete with each other, that's why some employers pick Aetna while others pick United, etc. so that part is false."

Why are you being disingenuous?

Insurance companies compete within the state, but it's subjected to restrictions from other states due to the federal McCarran-Ferguson Act (1945). You are WRONG.

Large Business are able to operate in multiple states, which provides a loop, but the majority of small business, you know middle class folks, are mandates and restricted to competition within the borders of the state.

"insurance firms in each state are protected from interstate competition by the federal McCarran-Ferguson Act (1945), which grants states the right to regulate health plans within their borders."
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/out-of-state-health-insurance-purchases.aspx



6) "to top it off,"

Lol

7) "you can go to any health insurance company's web site and buy a plan directly from them without employer or government intervention. exactly as you would buy a car insurance."

Yes, any health insurance within your state, but not competition from other state. <=My point

Once again you're being disingenuous.



8)" likewise pharmaceutical companies also compete with each other, when pharmacy signs a contract with a specific generic drug manufacturer and not the other, that's because of competition."

That benefits the corrupted pharmaceutical company and those decisions are based on which will retain the most profit for the company, not savings for the populous. You call me heartless yet you're advocating for the pharmaceutical companies.

9) "and how do you suggest we go about "enforcing the laws of price fixing".. wouldn't you need government resources and regulations for that? ... so we're back to square one?"

LOL, I never said end all government, If I mentioned it in the very jump to enforce price fixing it's implied the government will be the enforcement. The mere fact that you tried to spin that statement displays how childish and and dishonesty you are. The fact you're going to behave like a child and I have to explain every little conceptual detail to you, perhaps participating in politics sections on GC may not be for you.


10) "anyways good luck with your plan implementation. hope it works out for you."

LOL You act as if I'm a sitting member in congress/senate.


You haven't proposed anything valid in opposition to my ideas and opinions. I think you're extremely childish and defending a dangerous idea that seems more and more for the corrupted health care industry; considering you want to write a blank check to the Healthcare Industry, you want more government bureaucracy, but it's OK considering you understand how bad government bureaucracy in healthcare.

That makes no sense. LOL

 

!) "what i'm proposing is that you drop your silly ideas and face the reality."

I have faced reality, you haven't proposed anything substantial and you're being indirect on purpose, because you're lack the facts to engage in an actual debate.

2) "i may not like paying taxes for a lot of shit, but i understand the purpose and the benefits"

I never said I wanted to stop paying taxes. Lol I think it's funny when people make shit up, it's just a sign of desperation.

3) "does healthcare need reform? sure it does. there's no need to debate that, if this is what you are trying to do here."

Landrace:
"I think having health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals compete across the country would bring health insurance down, remove government subsidies to the healthcare industry, remove all mandates and enforcing the laws of price fixing would be a better alternative."

I think by stating the following, yes I'm discussion healthcare reform, the fact that you're being condescending as if you're unaware of our previous discussion is amusing and once again displays you have no substance and are simply being childish.

4) "et me do simple math for ya: ... if you make 100K / year and you don't write anything off and pay 33% in taxes, then 25% (to support healthcare) of that number is just about 8K a year (pre-tax by the way).. that's how much you'd be paying to "support" others."

This simply math is totally out of context in terms of reality: Let's inject some reality into your "simple math":

100K a year is not enough money to take in consideration:

1) Mortgage
2) Family of 4
3) Car Note
4) Consumer Debt
5) Utilities
6) State Tax
7) Fed Tax
8) Now an additional tax at 25% for healthcare?

Considering this person did everything right in life has insurance through an employer and now has to be taxed at 25% to pay for other people who are dependent on welfare?

Not to mentioned the admission by yourself about the government bureaucratic issues that still corrupts our healthcare system:

You haven't addressed:

1) Poor Healthcare
2) Mandates that impedes cost saving ventures to the people.
3) Regulations that restricts generic drugs.
4) Competition that would be able to utilize the free market to bring down the cost. Capitalism the economic principle that build this country.



5) "this is not a "blank check" nor "free healthcare for everyone". that's just the reality of today's situation, where you have to pay a little to contribute to society."

This is a blank check, the government will tax those americans that did everything by the book and write a blank check to the corrupted healthcare system. It's going to be a tragedy and we see how excellent health care government provides to our vets.

I don't have a problem with additional taxes if it's just, but I don't free welfare for all is a just practice it undermines our liberties and capitalistic principles to provided for those within society that dependent on government help.


6) "i get it you're too greedy to pay 8% of your earnings (at the worst case) to support you cousin with PTSD."

Look how desperate you're I bet when you wrote that you thought it was clevor lmao at the smile I'm about to wipe from your face. lol

My cousin has a great job been working for a telecommunication company for 6 months and is able to support himself. He doesn't need a handout and is a staunch supporter of repealing obamacare. He understood that many people died that wore his uniform defending our democracy and capitalistic beliefs in free market that made this country so powerful and great. He's no communist. Lol.

7) "p.s. i really don't think you know what you're talking about, so i'll follow your advice and stop replying"

easier said than done you've been trying to back out of this dialogue, because you don't have any facts you have ran away from all the arguments put into play and only focus on my character and my family.

You're childish and don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. You based your arguments on emotions and lack analytical response. You are a joke. lol


I think you're simply just making baseless arguments and emotional rants from a positions to grandstand on morality. Considering you haven't put forth any substantive response, but merely attacking my character calling me "heartless" and then claim that in itself to be a fact, when in reality you don't understand the difference between an opinion and fact.