Irrespective of the truth of Christianity, it is often said, as an argument in defense of Christianity, that it is a religion of humility. It gives others hope. It's rather dignifying. Noble. Do you think this is true? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLL7k4K6XCI&NR=1]YouTube - Christopher Hitchens - The Tyranny of a Callous God[/ame]
meh i was actually typing a response to the video, but i got lazy and just went to sleep. maybe i'll keep typing the response. It was indeed funny how Hitchens accuses God of "thought crime" and not saving children from the demise that man has created out of his own "sin"...but ill tell u this now, God doesnt mess with free will...he oversees our progress with the small blessings he gives us.. so if we dont handle those small blessings here..how would we handle the blessings in heaven?
Technically - nothing happens out of the will of God (according to the Bible). So do we have free will? Or is everything that happens the will of God? Can't have it both ways.
Because if we have free will, then what we do is OUR own free will. If everything that happens is the will of GOD, then we do not have free will - as everything that happens is God's will, not ours. Make sense?
Yes, it makes sense. But I don't think that means free will and god's will would have to be mutually exclusive. How bout a little of both? I just wiki'd the concept and have no problem with that.
But here's the problem... If what you are doing is God's will, then it is not truly you're own. Things, as described in the Bible, are impossible. You cannot do things of your OWN free will, if they are, in fact, NOTHING happens outside of the will of God... And according to scripture, both are true... Thus showing another flaw in scripture. Is our will really our own? Or is it God's? A perfect example... In the Bible it teaches that human nature is to sin, and go against God. It's our will. So if nothing happens outside the will of God (according to the Bible, this is the case), then it is God's will that we sin? Another good example... The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance... So it is not God's will that any should go to hell, then... But yet the Bible teaches that there will be an innumerable amount of people who go there. The Bible also teaches that Jesus is God the Father, incarnated (Colossians, and John both teach this) - but in Mark, Jesus says that he does not know the hour of the end - ONLY the Father does. So is Jesus the Father? Or not? The Bible is riddled with inconsistencies, and blatant doctrinal contradictions. Christians refuse to acknowledge them, and continue to blindly follow their faith. They are far from "humble" as the title of this thread suggests. In fact, the things Christians do best is brag on themselves for how "righteous" they are, and condemn those who aren't up to their standards. Not all Christians mind you. But the ones who TRULY believe the Bible, and all that other BS, generally are that way.
I love Christopher Hitchens' straightforwardness. Christianity ain't one religion. The denominational differences are many and deep. I think it would be a sweeping generalization to call all of it humble or arrogant. You have, for instance, the Westboro Baptists, who picket the funerals of gay servicemen and celebrated the beheading of a Canadian citizen on a Greyhound bus because "God is... exposing Canadians as cannibals and highway decapitaters," (If I could find it again I'd post the link where I found that quote; unfortunately I only copied down the quote out of sheer shock) That kind of absolute moral certainty is the very antithesis of humility, it's unbridled hubris. But then there's actually a good number of quite humble Christians, several of whom I know, who barely go farther than believing that there is a creator-deity associated strongly with Jesus and that the Bible represents a best-effort on the part of humans trying to understand just what happened and isn't meant to be taken literally.
Not all are arrogant, but a good majority of actual Christians are. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually is one. A Christian is someone who believes Jesus to be the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament. The Apostles of Christ - the ones who preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and that all other roads lead to hell, were called Christians first. And for Christianity to be correct, the Bible would have to be taken literally. God can not hold you accountable to a book of metaphors. It would be cruel. The scriptures I gave, and the beliefs which they represent, are generally regarded amongst the majority of Christians to be true. I was hardcore into church and shit for a while. Even went to Bible college. I've met more than my fair share of Christians. A lot of them are just like the Pharisees of the NT. Not all of them, mind you. But the vast majority.
If I told you I was born in Texas and then told you I was also born in Alaska, would you feel anything was awry? Without a doubt there's a distinction to be made in the arrogance of Christians, and the ones you describe are relatively humble, but to say they are generally humble is missing the point Hitchens made. Someone who believes in a loving God is actually begging some disturbing questions about the rape and torture of small children.
Of course, but in the realm of a god's will and free will I don't see why there can't be both. Because we don't think there can be? They seem more like two things that involve each other. For example, if I have free will, and there is an omnipotent, omniscient god of the universe, it would have to be his will for me to have free will, no?
The Bible clearly states that every single happening from the beginning of time, until the end of it, happens because it is God's will. The Bible ALSO clearly teaches that we have FREE will - meaning we are free to do whatever we want, whenever we want. Even sinful things that go against the nature of God. So, then - it is God's will that we sin? Also, the Bible clearly states that he is not willing that ANY should perish (go to hell)... But it also teaches that lots of people go to hell. God's will is that all should come to repentance. So then why isn't the whole world Christian, if (and again, this is according to the Bible) NOTHING happens outside the will of God? It is a blatant conflict of interest, man, and it's difficult to put it much clearer than I already have. You cannot have your own free will to do whatever you want, if EVERYTHING that happens is "the will of GOD". That makes it GOD'S free will - not OURS'. Get it?
Yes. Do you get me? I'm saying that if we have free will, we would be 'encased' if you will by god, so our free will would have to be god's will. For example, what ever happens happens (god's will), and I'm pretty sure most people would agree with that. However, we chose what happens (free will). As far as sin and jesus and what not, I'm not at all informed enough to comment on that.
I contend that Christianity is not a religion of humility. What immediately comes to mind is that we humans are supposedly the point of the universe being created, although the universe is much older and larger than we can even begin to comprehend. For instance, the largest star we know of, VY Canis Majoris, is 1800-2100 times larger than our own sun, which in turn could fit one million Earths in it. Also, the universe is currently thought to be around 13 billion years old, Earth 4.5 billion years old, and human beings 1-200,000 years old; and Jesus came around 2,000 years ago. Our smallness is far beyond comprehension, but here the entire universe is, all just for us. The only thing that rivals the size and age of the universe is our aforementioned arrogance. And because most of the planet is non-Christian (as it has always been), it also seems absurd to me to believe that the vast majority of people ever to have lived are not going to enter heaven, since accepting Christ as one's savior is heaven's cover charge. And let us not forget the countless people that were and are condemned by Christians as heathens, abominations, blasphemers, savages, Satanists, et cetera. Surely that list is long and well-known enough to avoid its inclusion here. What hope does Christianity offer these victims when the religion's most vocal supporters are condemning them not just to hell, but to hell on earth? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1w8hKTJ2Co&feature=related]YouTube - Planets and Stars in Scale (With Music)[/ame]