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the bonobo was the garden of eden

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by froggy, May 9, 2006.

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  1. #1 froggy, May 9, 2006
    ok lets see if i got this straight.

    the bonobo and the chimps are our two closest relatives, sharing something like 99.7% the same genes. there are relatively few differences between the bonobo and chimps other than social activities. this is also true with humans and the two close relatives. social activities have changed the three groups morphologically but only in minor ways and our genes are consistant. we are virtually the same.

    its said if u give a human a box, he will pack some goods and sell it to someone else with it. if u give the chimp the box, he will use it as a tool of somesort. if u give it to a bonobo, he will grab the nearest bonobo and have sex inside of it.

    the bonobo live in a lush tropical paradise where everything is provided by 'god'. food, shelter, weather. there are virtually no preditors because they travel in such large, tight groups that they are very strong. the same goes for chimps and humans.

    but the bonobos have one special trait that genetics has seemed to missed, they dont have 'war'. its highly documented that chimps do indeed go to war, tribe vs tribe to increase territory or women or ?. the humans, as we all know, are quite fond of war. hard to find a single day where some human isnt at war with other. and our basic economy is built on the 'industrial war machine' that eisenhower talked about. war is in our very blood. but this is not so in the bonobo. why?

    i believe that the theory behind the garden of eden is two fold. the actual garden is the hanging gardens of babylon. this is the historical basis for the legend of garden. but the reason this story resigns in humans so deeply is because there is apart of us that longs for that 'bonobo-ness' in our genes. where we dont really wanna make war but love. we talk of this, we write of it in poetry and song. its there in the heart of humans, beating out an ever longing of wanting that 'garden of eden', where we are not ashamed of sex and love and life. but religion takes that away by calling the desire for knoledge, sinful.

    i believe religion is the chimp part of us, always hating the ideal of freedom and love, but wanting war and rules. but where is the bonobo? i think one can find the 'bonobo-ness' of our history in the teachings of the dalai lama when he talks about compassion and empathy. or even when Jesus says love thyn enemy. or many other teachers and societies where peace, love and joy are more important than war and hating. this is few and far between in human history but every once in a while the bonobo in us comes out. religion hates this story. religion tries to shove this so deepy down that they create a hell as the ultimate punishment, going to a bad place FOREVER. religion hates gays, jews, incas, thought apartheid s. africa was on the side of god, allowed hitler to do his deeds.

    its time to take back our history and history and remember that we can also love. we dont need to war. war never works whilst peace always works. the bonobos have it right, they ARE in the garden of eden. the story of humans starts there and we need to return.
     
  2. #2 froggy, May 13, 2006
  3. #3 emagdnim13, May 13, 2006
    definitely interesting.

    especially about the bonobo not engaging in war.

    but how many animals don't engage in war? and live off of "god"?
     
  4. #4 froggy, May 13, 2006
    good question. and here is how i would answer it.

    its not about other animals, its about how the bonobo/chimps are the two sides of humans. we have both in us, we have love and we have war against the other. yet we virtually excuse ourselves of the love side, even tho we know its there, but we infact gravitate twords the chimp side, exclusively, the war way of solving problems. do we have a dept of peace and love? ofc not, we have only a dept of war inwhich we spend roughly 1/3 of our taxes on.

    remember that bonobos, chimps and humans are all on top of the food chain. so really we are only talking about how we solve problems with others of the same species. the bonobos have evolved a society where they solve problems with sex and love and empathy for the others. the chimps have evolved a society whereas its the opposite, they solve problems with their chimp neighbors with war with the others.

    and here is something that i didnt make clear in the first post, that religion is the wedge. religion is the way that humans drive away empathy and compassion because its a way of seperation of the other. how u ask? who on the planet is most against divorce, sexual promiscuity and infidelity? when was the last time 2 religions got together and respected eachother, hugged eachother and made intilectual love? what war hasnt almost exclusively been about religion and the otherness of the others religion? 9/11 bombers use violence in the name of religion and dubya used the name of religion to go to war in iraq (evil doers).

    and i dont hold myself to the ethics of a octipus or a watermelon.
     
  5. #5 jtp2007, May 13, 2006
    Theres another thing that separates us from those two monkeys. Opposible thumbs.

    I never knewabout the bonobo though. You got some interesting stuff.
     
  6. #6 delaWHERE?, May 13, 2006
    That's a really interesting comparison...never thought about things that way.
     
  7. #7 Maitereya, May 14, 2006
    yin yang, we cant have the good without the evil.

    there is love in society, its hard to find and sometimes hard to recognize because many people hide it beneath a thick layer of ego.

    whether we want to live in a society of 'bonobos' or a society of 'chimps' is totally dependant on us. i mean we can decide to buy into the mass media 'chimp' society. or we can decide to do something else :)eek: dubya is pissed). we can cultivate love and happiness within ourselves and just by our presence people will realize that they are 'chimps'.

    you cant say that religion is a wedge, catholicism may be a wedge but other religions are not. dubya and the terrositst chose the wrong religion lol.

    ps: i love the chimp/bonobo analogy. :D
     
  8. #8 froggy, May 14, 2006
    we cannot have good without evil, i dont want either, i want justice and empathy and compassion.

    and the reason religion is a wedge issue is because of that 'other' ideal. its easy to go to war with others. and religion is a very efficent way of creating others. ie, if u follow our rules, u will go to heaven. notice the word 'our'. just as good and evil are devisive, so is 'our'. think of it inside the analogy of the bonobo vs chimp. there are no others in the bonobo culture. vs the chimps are able to go to war with others. i think this is the real beauty of the analogy and the culture of the bonobo's themselves. its a very elequent way of showing the two sides of humans.

    im not saying that religion is the only wedge issue, its not. borders and languages are also wedgers. its just the most obvious way to wedge and a pathedic technology from the BC times.
     
  9. #9 Digit, Jun 6, 2006
    ummm... i thought we all shared the opposable thumbs...? can't chimps and bonobos grab branches? i thought they could.




    since learning about bonobos i have been fascinated... more though because it hints at other aspects of our being, more obvious through past cultures, most notably to my knowledge, ancient romans and greeks, whom shared most of the sexual traits of the bonobos, but also, the seeds of war were also sown.


    i do have to disagree partly with one aspect of your otherwise very sound hypothosis, and that is simply the rather absoluteness to your claims that it is religion that has caused all these things. i do not deny that such things have occured from religion, but there are many exceptions, and generally, the teachings of religions are certain against such things, and it is only misuse of power by individuals or the creation of micro hierarchies that are easily perverted or the mutations in interpretation and translation that has generally caused the discrepancies, "the wedge" you speak of.


    but yeah....

    bonobos are in our blood!
    or at least a close comon ancestry.

    but on war... recently i have taken up studying ancient religious texts, and most relevant is the bagvad gita... the very first part of which is on the "lamenting of war"... indeed. (yeah, i had to look up what "lamenting" meant too)


    GO BONOBO! lets regrow eden! can you think of better? if so, do that! soma what!? yups, heaven on earth is in our grasp as we trudge along like a snail on the edge of a straight razor. i say we fall eden side. but of course.... its only a suggestion.
     
  10. #10 Digit, Jun 6, 2006
    new religion... oneness awareness.
     
  11. #11 Digit, Jun 6, 2006


    oh dear, i seem to be triple posting, many appologies. however... i dispute that GW Bush is a Catholic. I thought his secret society had him worshipping Moly... who is moly? i dont recall moly ever coming up in any form of christianity i seen... but i could be wrong. but yeah, catholicism, and some of the yet even more dubious versions like opus dei *shudder* really aint being beneficial to global oneness and tranquility.
     
  12. #12 froggy, Jun 6, 2006
    the wedge = a way to make 'others'

    u need others to make war.

    bonobo's dont have others and maybe this is a reason they dont have war.



    maybe the reason chimps and humans have war is because we are able to wedge out others. religion is so very good at that wedging, at making others.

    remember we are talking in metaphor here. we all know that humans really came from aliens...
     
  13. #13 Maitereya, Jun 7, 2006
    mankind has a nature towards duality. but we have to have duality in order to have singularity(?). singularity as trancendence, duality as waking/dreaming, 'normal' state. u dont want duality, no one wants duality but thats the way our culture is.

    mmm ok i get it. so how do we make human kind understand that we as people are one people? .... now theres a task. imagine all the people, a brotherhood of man. ok i need some xmen powers then ill change the world lol. but untill then i can only change myself, and i suggest everyone do the same.

    ok i retract my statement :p. i recently discovered the dogmatic ways of religion and found spirituality as a technique and not as a religion. blah blah i dont make sence i know.
     
  14. #14 froggy, Jun 7, 2006
    mmm ok i get it. so how do we make human kind understand that we as people are one people? .... now theres a task. imagine all the people, a brotherhood of man. ok i need some xmen powers then ill change the world lol. but untill then i can only change myself, and i suggest everyone do the same

    i think the dalai lama has a good answer to this question. ill sum it up in 1 word, compassion.

    http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlspeech.html
     
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  15. #15 Digit, Jun 13, 2006
    "you have to be the change you wish to see in the world"
    -mohatma ghandi

    its remarkable how when we change to only allow ourselves the very best thoughts the world around us changes for the better too. we already have powers beyond that of the so called "x-men", we just have to allow ourselves to live our best, or better. it can really start within.

    the universe is here for us, if we forget, it will remind.

    compassion indeed.

    if we seek kindness to ourselves, be kind to others, for we get what we give and have given.
     
  16. #16 Digit, May 23, 2008
    so lets bonobo! c'mon everybody, lets do the bonobo!


    .... no?



    ......... yeah, i'm still too frigid for that kind of open shenanigans too.

    i got shy kidneys. i usually cant even pee if there's someone else around!

    hehe, what i'm sayin though, nurture can play a BIGGER role than nature.
     
  17. #17 dbpwattack, May 23, 2008
    compassion...? sure.. but lets shoot higher- unconditional love.

    when talking about changing yourself and the world will change with you:

    you don't necessarily have to go to each individual and wake them up.. as you expand your consciousness the rest will rise as well- we are all ONE.
    as the sea of consciousness rises the ship will rise with it. (the ship being humanity)
     
  18. #18 Digit, May 23, 2008
    ah yeah. thnx for the reminder.

    * pictures david lynch and dr haegel telling of the amplification effect *

    .... so just sit back, and be.
     
  19. #19 Cali Ounces, May 23, 2008
    also another difference is the bonobo social structure is female dominant,
     
  20. #20 Digit, May 23, 2008
    difference?



    ;)
     
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