Political Fact Checking Call Them Out Here...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by svedka, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. Do you think, as a Canadian, and me as a Norwegian (Europe's Canada), that there are cultural and political engines in America that seem strange and immoral to us - but, if we had a better look at things, we would understand? Let me put you at ease a bit with the Russian thing btw, and you're entirely right that Putin is a wicked and clever warlord and nothing less:

    I think America and Russia may well be allies. One course of achieving that is diplomacy, which is what Trump has been doing - speaking softly. At the same time, he's been wielding a big gun:
    Much fuss is made about how Trump is 'Putin's cockholster' as Colbert put it. His rhetoric, his lack of critique, etc. Yet, the militaristic actions under his administration - sanctioned by him or not (either is calming - either he sanctioned the actions, which makes him anti-Russian, or he didn't sanction them, which means these are decisions out of his control) - the actions taken tell a different story. Hundreds of Russian "pro-Syrian mercenaries" (the same kinds we see in Ukraine) were bombed to shit when they attacked American commandos in Syria: How a 4-Hour Battle Between Russian Mercenaries and U.S. Commandos Unfolded in Syria
    Right now, not just in my homeland, but in the home region of my homeland, one of NATOs largest joint exercises is being held. Exercise Trident Juncture 2018 - Wikipedia Trident Juncture fuckinexplosions.gif
    It's winding down now. For weeks, military helicoters have been flying overhead, jets have been thundering by in squadrons from the local air force base, there's amphibious vehicles landing on the beach by my cabin and warships are crashing in the fjords:
    Helge Ingstad: Norway stunned as warship sinks after collision - CNN (CNN fake news, we're not stunned, we're paralyzed by humiliation)

    The point of this massive exercise, other than to sink our own ships, is to demonstrate to Russia that NATO is there with a massive fuckoff force that dwarfs it's capabilities and that it can be there in no-time. Similar activities have been going on all across the eastern European NATO front - from Poland to Latvia. NATO itself being massively funded and backed by USA.

    So, this Trump/Russia thing - there is surely some fuckery going on, but the mouth talks sweet while the hand grips the gun, and I think that's good strategy for diplomacy.
    The other half of this conversation is the Russian's perspective on how NATO acts. It's a tricky story, this thing, and as with most things, more grey than black and white
     
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  2. And what type of economic investment do you think we should do south of the border? Some of these people might be running from violent drug cartels that murders anyone and everyone that might appears to possibly has any negative influence on their profits from drug trafficking, sex trafficking, political power, etc. How do we solve that part of the problem when the governments have been corrupted by said cartels and the people who have yet to become corrupt by the cartels are murdered... Should we entertain the idea of the US invading Mexico in an attempt to stabilize the country from the violence caused by the cartels?

    Also, why does the US have to be the one to foot the bill? Why can't we propose something that goes through the UN? Or an agreement between the US and Canada at minimum since we all share North America?

    I'm all for helping our neighbor to the south, but we can't approach it with a blank checkbook mentality and think that simply throwing money at the problem will help to the level that is required for that country to benefit and thrive.
     
  3. Does this not worry you though? Just the fact that Trump has such power worries me. He is a loose cannon
     
  4. I agree that is what is happening but its kind of scary to think what if the war lord calls bluff and says lets do this. Unlikely but still a possibility
     
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  5. What power does he have that past Presidents didn't have? He is not a dictator and no matter how much of a loose cannon he might possibly be, he isn't able to make certain drastic decisions without Congress...That's why we have a Congress... The US and Russia aren't going to war any time soon. At most, we'll be involved in another proxy war with them, but not them directly.
     
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  6. I don't know if anyone knows this but, in ancient China the Mongolians kept knocking over the wall.

    What makes you think in the day of underground tunnels and explosives that a wall would work today? It's a massive waste of money and will be climbed across or destroyed one way or another.

    Most immigrants come by expired green card anyway.

    Also they can deliver drugs by drone these days as well. A wall is a very old school way of solving new problems.
     
  7. The same power....look at what the Bush's did. Invade now and ask questions later
     
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  8. So based on the fact that some people are gonna find a way in regardless means we shouldn't do anything to combat illegal immigration? If that's the new school way of attempting to solve the problems, I'll pass.
     
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  9. No I'm just pointing out that the solution would cost more then the problem.

    60% are coming in by Green Card dude. A wall won't even solve half your problems.

    I'm saying come up with a better solution.
     
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  10. #50 VikingToker, Nov 29, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
    Yes, but so have all the others, and Trumps behaviour - while certainly not usual - is not extreme, and does not break any world-ending barriers.**edited, wrong order

    He has not yet started any wars - two years to go, of course. But, nonetheless, he does not strike me as the war-monger. One of the upsides of isolationism is a reduction in aggressive conflict - while, on the other hand, that same reduction may lead to powers more wicked than the US gaining power, as with Putin.

    But yeah it sure does. Admittedly, over here, the main cause of concern recently in my section of the woods hasn't been Russia, but the weight of migration, and how that has impacted the web of alliances in Europe, and the power balance of the left and the right. In this regard, Trump's policies (he's a bit intense) are exactly what Europe is implementing - except also with tanks and shit, and underhanded deals with dictatorships to keep migrants away. At the same time, war with Russia would be devastating to Europe, either by losing one of its main trade partners, or by collateral damage.

    So, where we come from definitely shapes how we feel about Trump's policies (though we mostly agree he's a douchey guy)
     
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  11. So maybe we should shrink the size of government then.
     
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  12. A wall is a huge government expense and, its cheaper to stay with boarder patrol and just as effective.
     
  13. I think you need to go after the people who are hiring them and cut off their money and make it known that anyone hiring illegal aliens will spend a minimum 5 years in jail that is after you decriminalize drugs and empty the prisons of simple possession charges
     
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  14. Well, then Russia's military is a fraction of EU/US combined might. Then, if you think of the other half of warfare - one's what you have, the other is how quick you can replace it when it goes boom - Russia's GDP is about the same as Spain's. And Spain is in an economic recession. And Russians are largely dependent on selling gas to - drumroll - Europe. So, it's really not a win for anyone, and Putin is - at the moment - the most intelligent and cunning of all of the world's leaders. He's sharp as fuck, and plays a masterful game with the poker hand of 4s and 7s he's got. Danced circles around Obama, around Merkel, around Schröder when he was the guy, has Trump singing his praises.

    He's smart enough to use other ploys. I'd argue one such ploy is making the western allies venemously argue among each other about which one of them is a Putin-stooge and which one is a loyalist.

    This whole Russia-thing... it's not beneficial, for anyone

    Edit: "Putin wins when you're an asshole to a fellow American on the internet over him" -Dan Carlin
     
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  15. Not to mention Trump actually deported less people then Obama did on his first year.

    I mean he also did promise to keep jobs in America but, that's not happening even last week a bunch were fucking lost in Michigan.

    However I will give him props for not starting any wars.
     
  16. See better solution right fucking there.

    Make room in the prison system by not dealing with possession charges in prison but, rather as a mental health issue. They can get sentenced to Rehabilitation while supplier gets hard time. Then deported once free!
     
  17. People don't give Putin enough credit. He's intelligent and he knows how to walk the walk. He's not stupid. He's not going to risk losing any of his power in Russia over relatively petty shit. He's not going to jump at the chance to go to war with the US because he knows it won't play out good for Russia. He is surrounded by our military allies; everyone from Norway to Japan/Korea, as well as Alaska. Russia is such a large and vast country that the Russian government would not be able to control their borders to keep us out if we truly wanted to get in there, and Putin knows this. Not only would that not be good for Russia/Putin, but there wouldn't really be any net benefit for the US to do something as drastic as that.
     
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  18. We've had our fair share of migrants and asylum seekers here as well. Costing taxpayers millions to house them and get the paperwork done. Problem is a lot of these asylum seekers don't actually need it and are just using the war in Syria as a reason to gain entry into our countries.
     
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  19. As a former drug user, and someone who is extremely skeptical of anything government, I don't like the idea of mandatory minimum sentences no matter the crime. It's a lazy way of fighting crime and getting justice.
     
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  20. It's becoming less and less politically taboo to state it, especially over here, but it's a problem that has to be fixed as soon as possible. The real victims in this kind of fraud - and hushing critique of it up with the ostracizing labels of racism, nazism and bigotry - are the actual refugees, who suddenly find themselves in camps while economic migrants live in apartments in Stockholm.

    Those taxpayer millions are not going to the right people. People that may be needy, yes, but the world is mostly made of those. Some are more needing than others. I think a more intelligent approach to this and many other issues is warranted. I guess that's why we're seeing such upheaval, across the west.
     
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