Phos. Def. and Great White??

Discussion in 'Sick Plants and Problems' started by masterlights, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. So iven been battling slight phosphorous def through out flower for some time now and am just honing in on the perfect amount of nutes to use and such but its kinda hard when your not growing the same strain each time and all strains have diff nute uptake ratios.

    But eithr way the phos def have been affecting pretty much each lady in my flower,some worse than others.:rolleyes:

    I heard that someone on here also had phos deficiencies when using great white bc i guess the plant is just uptaking more nutes than usual with that stuff.Can anyone attest for that or have had experience with great white and the deficiency.

    I attached some pics so hopefully you guys can confirm its def a phos def.The spotting is happening at the very bottom of the plant and usually working its way up the plant somewhat.Im also getting the tell tale signs of a phos def. from the purpling of the fan leaves and petiols.The def seems to be affecting the bottom fan leaves the most working its way from the outside of the fan leaves toward the center veins.

    A lil background:coco,technaflora i add some flowering bat guano when im preparing the coco and i even sprinkle some on the top of the pots if i start noticing some P def.But it just seems like i cant keep up with the P uptake.

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  2. Hey yea I have the same prob with my blue cheese and I'm using the same frets I'm Evan outing bat shit as a top dressing but still not getting better
  3. Yo, Is your medium coco as well??

    Since i feed pretty much every day but i dont go by the chart tha says 3 tsp a gall.i only use about 1 teaspoon/gal of the bc bloom and even a lil less of the boost bc my plants were really dark green and thought it could be to much N,so ive been backing of the also doesnt have any Phos which isnt helping my situation.

    How much are you feeding?
  4. from those pictures that doesnt look like a phosphorus deficiency at all. in fact, i think they are getting too many nutrients. they look burnt.
  5. does nuteburn or overfeeding start at the bottm of the plant usually.All these pics are of the very bottom fan leaves and on some of the secondary leaves on the branches at the very bottom.

    Anyone else have an opinion.I do have some purpling of the fan leaves which i know they can say it can be genetic but i do have a few strains.But it seems that the taller plants leaves look fine and the shorter ones that are about 2.5 to 3 foot are the ones with the problem.

    Im wondering if it is overfeeding and the taller plants can just handle more nutes than the shorter ones.
  6. It actually makes sense bc why would the taller plants look so much better if it was a deficiency they would be the ones tearing up the nutes and the shorter plants would be fine.
  7. yep, just be easier on the nutes for the small 'uns.
  8. with the 'great white' It's not useful if you're feeding synthetic nutes. Micorrhiza function to supply constant nutrient to your plant (especially P, and probably N as well) especially when nutrient levels are medium-low. Their function will actually inhibit P uptake (lower yield) if you are supplying the plant with additional P in your water- and especially in the case of synthetic P which might simply kill the bacteria- Micorrhiza work best with soil amendments, no additional nutrients supplied. additional minerals and carbons are not a bad idea though because when the bacteria run out of sugar they will eat the carbon.

    hence the organiphile expression- feed the soil. not the plant.

  9. interesting.good post..but i just dont understand why ppl would still buy great white..i mean i hear it all the time hydro guys using this stuff so if chem ferts would kill the bacteria whats the point of using it..

    but then on the other hand if the chem ferts killed the bacteria why would feeding them additional P affect anything if their dead already?????

  10. first off chemical nutes don't kill mychos at least when used right thats a myth. what is ur cal mag usage? Micorrhiza actually go to sleep or shut down when p levels are above 70ppm its a waste to use great white once in flowering.feed ur girls some good spring water for a couple of days.
  11. well the past couple grows i was using cal mag to much.i was using about 1 tsp per gallon and was also using it when i was flushing the plant.since then ive knocked it down to 1/2 tsp like the chart suggest per gallon dont use it during flushing.i just use plain water and clearex.

    for these ladies however i havent been overdoing the call mag.

    i always heard mixed statements about ppl saying that chem ferts kill the great white and i think otherwise.i mean great white came out with a usage chart and it says if used with hydropinics how much to use and how sure great white has already done the research unlike ppl on a forum just throwing statements around..maybe i ll contact great white and see what they say.

    i guess i ll stop using the great white in flower since the P levels get kicked up in flower.

    However if im using great white in flower and bumping up the P does that cause any sort of inbalance or nute lockout?? or since the P getting bumped up causes the great white to go dormant its not having any affect on the nute balance??
  12. Heres an email i recieved from someone at great white:

    I hope I can clear some of this up for you.
    First, chemical fertilizers definitely do not kill mycorrhizae. Second, a main function of mycorrhizae is phosphorous uptake. So, when there are large amounts of P in the soil it stops germinating. That is why it is important to use it in the beginning stages. Let me know if you have any other questions and thanks for your business.

    So.. im def only going to use the great white during veg and the transplant stage.according to great white it is in fact pointless to use during flowering when P level are raised.

  13. uh didn't i say that?

  14. i want to see results from research done by professionals before i believe anything like that (chemicals dont kill the fragile fungi). no offense but your word and Plant Success's word just doesnt cut it for me. i will believe otherwise if i can see an article or excerpt (sp?) from a dependable source (i.e. not wikipedia). it sounds like tomfoolery. i dont really believe they go dormant when nutrient levels are too high - maybe they starve off and die. they also excrete P and N, so adding extra P and N may be toxic to them; just as your poop is toxic to you.

    mycorise has a symbiotic relationship with the plant. in laymans terms, plant roots excrete carbohydrates, which are eaten by mycorrhizae. mycorrhizae excrete N and P, which is taken in by the plant.

    again, it is a fragile organism and i think its useless to combine with chemical nutrients. even if the bottle of nutrients says "organic" (im not talking about pure extracts), i dont think it would be good to combine with mycorise.

  15. read this [​IMG] superfeedingwmycohydroponic.pdfits in there about synthetic nutes.

  16. awsome article.The only thing im going to change is my application.Im just going to use it throughout veg and sprinkle some on the roots when i transplant to flower..and maybe continue the use for the first week or so of flower then stop.Like the article said its pointless to use one the fungus is already established in mid to late flower and P levels start rising during that time anyway.

    I cant believe it can form into miles into just one thimble full of soil..really blows my mind!

  17. I read some where that the fungi was found in the 1800s by a scientist who traced a mushrooms roots back to the roots of an oak tree.
  18. that article is written to try to sell their product. it was in a Rosebud magazine or Urban Garden or somnthing like that, i recognize the Knowledge thing in the upper right hand corner. please dont take the use of my language offensivley. i am not mad at you guys, i am mad about the contents in the article. im mad at the publishers.

    they say hydroponic nutrients are ionic. no fuckin shit. im pretty sure all chemical fertilizers have some type of charge, hydro or not. "In hydroponics, all nutrients are supplied in ionic form." sentences like this are designed to lead you on. did you notice the big "Plant Success" at the bottom? i really dont want to offend you or anything, thesage3, but its propoganda like that which bring our growing world down.

    mycorise has a symbiotic relationship with your roots. as i stated above, your roots excrete sugar which is eaten by fungi near your roots (like mycorise). after the fungi digest it, their "poop" contains N and P. mycorise has a hyphae that is in the roots, which can act as a vascular system delivering things to your roots. they leave out details and whatnot which would have someone like me asking "why? how? what?"

    mycorise doesnt "cause" roots to branch out everywhere. their symbiotic relationship with the plant creates a very healthy rhizome, causing root growth. the extra P the myco gives your plant promote root growth, but so do phosphorus rich nutrients. but if chemicals kill off myco, than adding them in the first place would be pointless. i mean, i guess you can say it "causes" the growth, but its way way way deeper than that. thats why i dont read rosebud and urban garden. it isnt science. its their sponsor's perception of things. sometimes they have interesting articles about individuals, but when they get into science like that i would believe that as much as i believe the recomended dosage on superthrive.

    for example, mycorise do not translocate nutrients in the plant. maybe the ROOTS, but not the plant. for example, the xylem and phloem translocate nutrients throughout the plant. the way they put these magazines put things is very aggrivating. mycorise excrete their wastes, and the plant root absorbs it. it can also help in the process of absorption of other decomposed organic compounds. just as how your root absorbs nutrients naturally without them. yes, myco can greatly affect the way your plant grows. but its not just myco. there are WAY more beneficial microbes than myco and trichoderma. theres bacteria, protazoa, nematodes, lots of different types of life. they try and throw fancy words at you, but in the end, they sound ridiculous. real science prevails.

    i have never seen anything to support the fact that mycorise helps control excess chemical nutrients. maybe i havnt gotten too far in this book im reading, but i know for a fact that myco fungi will not help control excess chemical fertilizers. in fact, this book (revised by a soil microbioligist from Oregon State University) suggests chemicals kill myco. no, they dont suggest it, they actually say "it kills them."

    myco are NOT as effective in hydro as they are in organic (nature.) LIES LIES LIES. god that article raised my blood pressure. chemicals can kill them shits. nothing that is natural can be effective as nature. take indoor bud quantity vs. outdoor bud quantity as an example. they do state some facts about mycorise in the article, i will give them that. SOME facts. idk where the fuck they are coming up with this other stuff.

    than they say 90% of land plants need mycorise to survive. they forgot to mention that these are PLANTS IN NATURE. not plants people grow strictly with fertilizers. plants in the wild wouldnt be able to survive without mycorise because that is how they get their nutrients. in our setting, you give them the fertilizer, taking out the need for mycorise. they want you to interprate that statement as follows: for plant survival, you NEED to buy their product. its what they want.

    here are some real scientific articles for you guys. theres a war going on. dont believe their propoganda. all they want is your money.

    this guy sells mycorise and suggests to not use chemical nutrients with it.

    article about different species of fungi and how they affect certain plants.

    article suggesting that commercial applications of myco are usually ineffective, because the enviorment was unfavorable.

    again, thesage3, i do not want to hate on you. i do not mean to offend you at all with what i posted. but the things they try to get people to believe in those magazines makes my blood boil. i mean, who would want to spread around scientific information that is untrue? a salesperson, thats who.

    companies that mine natural gas by using chemicals to dissolve rocks in the ground say the chemicals aren't harmful to the enviorment, either. yeah, uh, BULLSHIT. this process of mining is called "fracking." look it up, its quite interesting. just another way for humans to destroy the planet. FUCK THE EPA!!!!!
  19. I don't read rosebud either. that was sent to me by the people at alphabio systems I think could be wrong with the name, they make thrive a "liquid"mykos not getting into that one any how I think its funny that one company is going to send me something a different co wrote or sponsored. I 4 1 hate the bs companys spread to sell their product, but I also find it funny that there are peops like u " no offense" that think everything is propaganda and its bringing the world lot of bs out there thou but its not all bs. and by the way side by side treated the same, 3 week old clones 1 botanicares pure blend grow original and 1 botanicares powerplant both treated with mykos same way at transplant into 6" square pots at 3 weeks when they went 2 3 gal they looked the same no differences same white fuzzy roots. mykos live to eat up nutes nowe if you run high ppms forget about it.
  20. #20 OhioStateBuckeyes, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2011
    well looks like that settles it i guess. maybe mycorise doesnt effect MJ as much as the growing world thinks it does.

    next time try using some clones with mycorise and some without. see if there is any noticable difference.

    oh, and i dont think everything is propoganda. just "information" released by advanced nutrients (or other companies, like the guys at urban garden or maximum yield.) some articles are interesting, but than there are things like that which blow my mind.

    all in all, not enough research has been done with mycorise to give a definitive answer. or maybe it has, just not enough research with cannabis. from my readings, however, i have learnt that mycorise is a very delicate fungi & can easily be damaged by chemical nutrients. unfortunatley, i do not have any scientifically proven facts on it. from most of the things i have read, i have been lead on to believe that chemical nutes kill mycorise.

    other fungi-s, bacteria, and protazoae are just as important (if not more) to root devolopment. this HAS been proven scientiffically. some fungi trap nematodes and eat them; they will not trap & kill the nematodes if there are chemical nutrients to kill the organisms off.

    if i dont hear from anybody, have a nice weekend! i apoligize for any spelling mistakes this evening. c'mon, its friday night!

    if i forgot to add or correct anything, please do so yourself (if you have the capibilities, that is.)

    edit: wow i am surprised that posted. i have been having lots of troubles accessing & posting on this webstite without getting an error message through my IE explorer. you can expect a huge rant by me tomarrow in the tech section. i know it is against the rules to suggest other websites on here. than again, look what this site is dedicated to. pretty fuckin hypocritical, huh? anyways, if anybody needs to reach me, my name is OSUB on

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