PGRs in Alfalfa and Kelp meals

First off, I cannot answer your question about PGRs.
 
your growing environment will largely influence inter-nodal spacing as apposed to a nutrient solution, if your environment is perfect then IDK.
 
your style of plant training will influence bud sites, I believe Potassium has a larger role to play in setting fruit/flower thus bud sites.
 
FPEs applied as foliar sprays have short lived effects, it is more efficient to use these FPEs as a soil drench in my experience.
 
Kelp contains all elements I believe I used it all throughout the grow cycle as I had no micro-nutrient source in my soil as it was unobtainable.
 
I found a foliar was really quite useless unless you wanted to remove debris from leaves such as dust or just general grime if you will. or the dreaded fungi/pest eradication programme.
 
I would not expect very much from applying kelp as a foliar if it is a FPE as you loose the secondary metabites (SP) because the brewing of an FPE takes so long. you will be spraying your girls with a natural multi-vitamin.
 
A quick soak tea perhaps 3 days you would stand more of a chance of extracting these hormones to induce vigour and heavy cropping.
 
and again quick soak teas ime have a greater efficacy when applied as a soil drench than applied as a foliar spray
 
I used quick soak teas to extract the hormone or w/e it is from the like of borage, nettle, and most recently comfrey, I was looking for the growth hormone, the vigour, resilience. nettle and comfrey gave the most "vigour".
 
probably if you want to extract all these secondary metabites AACT 12/24HR would be a wiser option than FPE or quick soak teas.
 
the best time to apply these things is all the time blade at small dosages.
 
HTH

 

 
From what little I understand, triacontanol stimulates the growth of shoots and internodes on cannabis. Chunk would know more of the specific attributes, though I've heard over application causes severe stretching. Here's a couple links to help you in your search.
 
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JARS/v36n3/v36n3-hinerman.htm
 
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4096873#post4096873
 
 
Offhand on the kelp, I believe it helps decrease the inter-nodal distance and promotes some lateral growth. Again, I'm just a placeholder for when Chunk gets here to save the day....lol

 

The biggest issue you are probably going to face is actually extracting these compounds so that you can actually use them.

 

Like I mean getting enough of these PGRs to have the impact you are looking for. There is a tipping point where you loose these PGRs and your left with a nutrient soup. This stands true for Fpe brewing

Edit - I'm not sure a meal would have PGRs. You would need fresh material. Wet if you will.

 

I'm trying to remember, but it seems kelp can cause stretching. Could be alfalfa, I use both, but not really paying attention and my internodes are increasing.
 
Same plant since 2009, so genetics are out. Normal internode spacing is ~1/2" between internodes. Seems like I top dressed with kelp meal, or added kelp meal to the tomato tone and top dressed. Alfalfa meal was in the mix along with kelp meal (~3/4cup/cf).
 
Anyway, a few weeks after the top dress, the internodes began increasing to over 1" apart. Nothing else was changed. These are mother plants in the same containers, lights, schedule, whatever. Not rootbound quite yet.
 
Anyone else with anything similar?
 
Wet
 
EDIT: It sure seems that it was me getting too happy with liquid kelp and over applying it. But, I only used liquid kelp once over 4 years ago and really don't remember. I think this was also before I started using alfalfa meal. but not really sure.
 
This was and is NOT the stretch going into flower, but while in veg. I've got to take clones, so I'll see what happens after everyone gets a haircut.
 
Wet

 

Would really like to hear Chunk and Possuum's thoughts on this.
 
Wet

 

First I wanted to respond to Twotoke's edit on his last post..... "meals" like kelp meal and alfalfa meal do have the PGRs.... you do not need "fresh" or "wet" plant material.
 
Second..... wetdog... I was very curious about triacontanol (TCN) a while back and did some messaging with GC member YourGrandfathe..... he knows a ton about that compound..... he said that TCN increases branching..... the plant doesn't actually grow any taller or shorter, but there is more branching within the same space, so internodal spacing is decreased.  I had heard shorter internodes, and was hoping that meant shorter plants, but to no avail.  
 
Anyway, while I was on this quest for info, several people did mention that they believed Kelp had resulted in more stretch for them..... hardly scientific, but when several people mention having observed something, I take note.....
 
Edit:  Actually I did find something scientific..... kelp contains gibberellin, which is associated with stem stretching because it promotes cellular division and elongation

 

Yeah, I also found some stuff from the Coot that suggested the same, more branching from the triacontonal but does kelp contain it?I thought it was just the alfalfa, but really don't know. Faulty memory, but I really don't recall any problems with the alfalfa.
 
Again, faulty memory, but it seems the problem popped up before from me getting heavy handed with the kelp. liquid and the meal. Makes sense with what you mentioned with the gibberellin. 
 
Bet I don't forget again. 
 
Wet

 

Yeah, I just mentioned the bit about branching and TCN because it was interesting and on topic for the original aim of the thread.... but yeah, I'm convinced the stretching you are seeing is from the gibberellin in kelp.

 

@[member="wetdog"] one thing that is perhaps overlooked in the grow space is the temperature difference between day and night periods. For cannabis specifically the greater the temperature difference the greater the stretch. Notwithstanding the issue with ongoing use of pgr's (alfalfa, kelp, fpe or tea, foilar or drench) all the way thru early flower or their regular use on clone mothers perhaps causing growth and elongation, dont rule out environmental facors (temperature flux day/night) as a contributing cause to stretching.
 
Something else to consider...perhaps

 

I have heard kelp tea decreases internode spacing and alfalfa tea increases internode spacing. But as already stated environmental factors have their part in this as well. I have also heard that alfalfa tea speeds up flower production. Idk how true this is. I have only started using alfalfa tea as of recent. I have always been told I have real tight internode spacing. I use seaweed extract from start to finish on all my plants.

 

 
When kelp is turned into seaweed extract, potassium hydroxide is used.... same thing as chemical cremation for humans/animals.... the compounds contained in the kelp, including gibberellin, are destroyed and only elements (nutrients) remain..... so the internode spacing effects of kelp would not be present in seaweed extract.

 

 
 
waktoo I can only speak anectdotally about foliar use of tea of alfalfa or algamin kelp. I think it was a great tool used weekly during vegetative growth and up until it got too messy to spray. I can't speak to the efficacy of that specific tool (foilar kelp tea) but certainly no harm ever came from it. I'd go easy with the alfalfa tea and keep that juice diluted and used as a drench once a week. I think overuse of any tea or fpe can lead to problems and foliar spraying with anything but h2o after light change is risky unless it's part of an IPM task.
 
A 'basal break' is a term used when grafting woody plants. It identifies a new growth site on the cane (wood stock) grafted to the root stock and it indicates a good graft has occurred! An exciting thing for rose and rododendron gardeners but in this case 'basal break' doesn't apply to what you/we do unless we're grafting cannabis.
 
Short internodal spacing can be a 'good thing' for any given garden. Some like it others not so much perhaps because at some point light penetration might become a problem due to the thick growth. If they start growing like crazy with budZ sites don't be afraid to pluck a path for the light... so-to-speak
 
HTH's. Did it?  

 

The seaweed extract I use is cold water processed. Would the pgr's still be destroyed in this? Growmore brand liquid seaweed extract.

 

 
 
i found this to be true as well and have even used diurnal and nocturnal inversions of only 5 degrees with good results, in keeping some pure sativa stretch to a minimum. that and at least 50 watt per sq ft of light kept as close to the canopy as possible.
 
great thread
 
oh and @ Gandalph, Brutha if you want shorter plants, just stand on a ladder to view them?

 

 
I believe that all liquid kelp products are simply seaweed extract (powder) reconstituted by adding water.  And I believe that all seaweed extracts are simply kelp that has had potassium hydroxide added.  I'm not aware of any companies using cold-press technology to extract compounds from kelp..... However.... I don't know everything lol.  So I emailed the company to see what they say.... I will get back to you.
 
 

 
I tried that, but standing on the ladder made my tent shorter too 

 

@[member="Gandalf"] Thanks. Yeah I'm not too sure I believe these companies claims. Just like some nutrient companies stamp "organic based" onto their labels.
 
 I have a buddy that uses cold water processing for his seaweed extracts and his stuff is the bomb. Only problem is he is all the way across the states. I might see if he can send me a jug again. I know his extracts are for sure processed without inorganic chemicals.

 

 
 
I recommend a 12' ladder... just in case "stretching" is what you be looking for .... lol. right around 63 days flower, ~ 120 days from clone. For real...
 
<no they're not organically grown, but think of the possibilities eh... >
 

 

i could upload a photo of a friends tomato plant tomorrow. it was his only one. i gave him half the bag of kelp meal i had left to use for what ever he wanted.  that day i saw that plant with my own two eyes. about 4 foot tall in a square trellis fairly bush, with multiple flowers. less than a week later the damn thing is 7 ft tall. and the bottom 4 is soo much bushier  than the top 3.  grown in a 3 gallon pot.
 
 i am going to get a picture