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need help for rdwc. Cant get nutrients right at all

Discussion in 'Hydroponic Growing' started by Dimebong, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. #1 Dimebong, Jan 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2014
    Growing in 40l rdwc. I need someone who knows dwc first hand to tell me how to feed these plants.
    I'm using growzilla a&b NPK 28.5.30. they recommend 1000ppm. i also have canna aqua for
    flower.
     
    You can see they go from overwatered, to healthy, then a bad mag deficiency, and
    now.
     
    Here are pics in order from week 3, 4, 5, 6, and now (6 1/2)
    Week 3 (rockwool too wet).JPG Week 4 (drying out).JPG Week 5 (1 week in dwc).JPG Week 6.JPG DSCF1014.JPG
     
    What is this deficiency. The tips turn brown first, then the sides.
    DSCF1002.JPG DSCF1003.JPG DSCF1007.JPG

    I have two 6 1/2 week old plants from seed that look 2 weeks old.

    Once they dryed out and recovered from overwatering i added 100ppm @ph6.0 grow nutrients and they grew nicely for about 5 days, then magnesium deficiency started showing in the leaf stems. I tried increasing and lowering ppm to correct it but didn't notice anything happening and mag deficiency was starting to show on the leaf surface so i put plain ph'd water in and left for a day, then added 50 ppm nutes (+66ppm tap water).They started recovering a few days ago after foliar spraying with epsom salts.

    After taking care of the mag problem but i can still see one deficiency developing and they are barely growing. My ppm's don't seem to move, i added 50ppm nutes 2 days ago and it's still hovering around 119ppm. That's the main thing i don't understand, surely at this low ppm the numbers should be decreasing. I've considered the nutrient balace (npk ect) but there was another guy who grew
    a pound plant under 600w with this brand and not much else.

    Info:

    I fill with 40l of water

    30ml h202 twice during the week

    10ml growzilla a&b NPK 28.5.30

    water is kept below 20C with diy chiller on for 15 min every 4 hours,

    sometimes it goes over but i have an aquarium temperature controller
    in the mail.
     
  2. everything looks good to me never used growzilla nutes gen hydro work great. maybe its the lights? how many watts?
     
    cant overwater dwc ever as long as u have enuff oxygen in the root zone but they can dry out
     
    could be the ppms? u mentioned 1000ppm but thats for full grown plants try something a little lower and dont forget to flush every 2 weeks at a minimum some say 1 week some 4. when i flush i like to full 3 times with plain water then let it run a few minutes then drain. after that i fill with new nutes
     
  3. #3 TheAnswer121, Jan 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2014
    lack of quality lighting imo. that and nute burn or manganese deficiency. got too much going on. cut that h202 out. completely unnecessary
     
     
    strictly ph'd water 5.8-6.0 for 48 hours then add your nutrients. start around 180ppm. and get those lights as close as posiible ;)
     
  4. I turned the metal halide off while i was correcting the magnesium deficiency. I can guarantee there is no mag deficiency any more. New growth doesn't have any purple stems and is soft and moist, but this browning type deficiency keeps eating away at the lower leaves. It's a nute problem, the problem started under the metal halide.
     
    I'm gonna try the canna flowering nutrients for a while because phosphorus deficiency is the only thing on google images that looks remotely similar. I always have cloudy water and ph problems after 4 days in 68 degree, h202 treated water. These nutrients also have alot of weird slime floating in part b which according to the shop is normal, what a load of crap.
     
  5. Your starting ppm was pretty high for a dwc. Where you are now is good and I think when you change your tub next you should keep the ppm's very close to where they are now. I have had 3ft tall plants yielding a qp each and they never went over 100ppm of nutes with oppm water. Those plants had no brown spots or tips, ever. Nice green color and lush growth. Now I don't even go over 200ppm and everything always stays green and lush. That is all i care about is a green, lush, and vigorous plant; with that comes quality, and with longer veg times and more light you get better yields.
     
    You recovered nicley from 1k ppm that young. The misting helped you because I think what I'm seeing is vapor pressure deficit damage caused from a high VPD (aka low rh). Epsom salt's for plants is a myth and I'm not making that up, I read a magazine article on it. It is the addition of the tap water and the misting that is saving your plants right now. The tap raises the ppm so you add less nutes but the minerals in tap water are not so easily assimilated so they are less stressful on the plant that has suffered from a high fertilizer dose. Synthetic fertilizers get forced into plants, its up to us to regulate how much they eat. The misting of epsom salt probably seemed to help since it increased the rh when you were doing it. Its easier for the plants to get water through the leaves, and water is what they need when they have been overdosed.
     
    Just to prove how good I am I would guesstimate your plants are in a <40% rh environment with a average temp of 75F? Sorry not trying to brag but this will be fun for me like eye balling a bag before I actually weight it. :)
     
     
    For me this is a sign that my nutes are expiring. I think it is the amino chains forming or linking together in the bottle. This is a semi dark formula or no? I've never seen them before. I would bet so and with added humic. The company told you they were fine, of course, they all would to keep you happy with them. I have had precipitates (chunks) and floatys in bottles but they have always performed poorly so now I make sure its all a nice smooth liquid. I check for chunks by putting my ear to the bottle and gently rocking it to listen for the solids scraping the bottom as they move. The floatys are just luck of the draw but if I can I send them back. Companies will usually replace a product to avoid losing your business
     
  6. #6 Dimebong, Jan 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2014
     
    Experienced help. Finally!
     
    They were never fed 1000ppm, that is the bottles recommendation. It's mostly been 100, and then 50. I tried 300 for about a day last week but that didn't do anything. The brown deficiency develops pretty fast and i foliar sprayed with canna aqua florez at 300ppm last night and the new brown mark i saw yesterday didn't get any bigger like it usually does so that must have satisfied something. I suspect P deficiency given the low P % and possibility that they're expired.
     
    Today i drained the water and noticed slimey bacteria starting to grow on the air stones so i cleaned the buckets and other submersibles then sprayed the sides with straight 35% h202 (burnt me a bit doing that but worth it) and refilled with 200ppm of canna florez. I also washed the roots in an h202 bath as well, they're still healthy. I've only just recently set the chiller on a timer so they were going over 70F quite alot. I might turn the metal halide on again now that they are starting to grow.
     
    I'm hoping the flower nutes will fix the problem and get them big enough for flower even though it's really high in K. Maybe i can supplement N to balance the npk out. I can't afford nutrients until next time because i spent like $500 just getting set up, i was growing in coco before which was easy.
     
     
    It's a dark liquid and the stuff floating is slimey, it blocks my syringe alot and it gets caught up in the pump filter. I accidentally mixed a&b coco nutrients together once and it smelt like chemicals and salty chunks developed,
    could they be organic?
     
  7. It seems in my experience that adding stuff for problems usually only makes things worse. My most successful grows have has the least amount of things in them. The important thing for feeding is to keep the ratios where the manufacture intended them to be. That's why reverse osmosis is best so you don't through the ratios of one or another mineral off.
     
    If you are having P deficiencies and its in your soup then it could be because another mineral is abundant; I would suspect high K. You don't need a certain amount of each mineral to make it available to the plant. If it in the soup in the right ratio and the ph is on then the plant can get it. Also if a mineral becomes abundant then that pathway gets shut down and the symptoms show as a deficiency in the tissue. Feeding properly is tricky but you can't force feed with higher mineral ec's/ppm's.
     
    With plants that size I would run 50-100ppm of nutes; that's starting with 0ppm water, or as close to that you can get. The low ppm will allow better uptake and will help correct the deficiencies; believe it or not.
     
    You never did answer me on the humidity. Where is that at? I really think this is VPD damage and not a nutrient issue.
     
  8. #8 Dimebong, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2014
     
    I'll try 50 again when i change the rez later because the ppm hasn't gone down and ph hasn't changed since i tried these flower nutes. When they were first put back in the buckets with the flower nutrients they perked up quite a bit and were still perky when i went to bed but today they were drooping and the green stem of the new growth that wasn't purple had a few streaks. I don't know if that was because i stopped foliar spraying for a couple of days or if it was the ppm so i sprayed my epsom salt solution again and i'm waiting to see if they pick up within the next few hours. the lights only been on for 30 min. I also turned the metal halide back on last night, they were under a couple of 23w cfls before
     
    I don't have a hygrometer because i've heard it costs a bit to get a reliable one. I have a blower
    fan blowing air from outside just above the plants and with the metal halide on it's about 25-28 degrees on average.
     
  9. #9 Dimebong, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2014
    I think the cause of my deficiency's could be brown slime algae.
     
    After all that cleaning i checked the roots today and noticed a few cloudy droplets on the roots instead of clear which means the slime from yesterday is starting. They were yellow before i washed them yesterday which i assumed was due to staining but i read that it is the slime smothering the roots. Seems like this could be the root of all the problems. Maybe the plants can't drink the water or nutes, and droops. The buckets h202 treated water temps have stayed at a steady 68F since changing and are 100% light proof.
     
    I think i might pick up a bag of soil to finish these plants because i don't have a spare $ at all for the beneficial microbe fix and i am out of smoke. Then i can start over with benes, floranova veg nutes and a new air pump, my duel one is only 7L/s, plus a small pump for
    control rez.
     
  10. #10 bizie, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2014
     No man you're wrong. I have been growing for almost 8 years, I do somewhat know what I'm talking about. This is what you NEED to do. First, stop spraying with epsom salt, its just adding more salt to the tissue and the added salt only helps dehydrate the plant which is NOT what we want to do. Plants are mostly water so they need a lot of that, they don't need certain amounts of minerals to thrive! They need lots of water and when your rh is too low (like I can tell yours is) then you need to use a lot less nutes. Your roots are dieing because your adding too much salts/nutes into your res to try to fix what was never really a problem, and now going to really make it one. I guarantee that all the extra stuff you're adding is going to keep making things worse. The slime only happens when your roots start to die. Its not the slime that kills the roots; its the dead roots that start the slime, and its the slime that kills all the healthy roots. The roots start to die off when people try to feed too much to a plant and it tries to restrict uptake; they thin out and lose all their root hairs because the roots are actually being dehydrated from the salts. Once that starts then slime starts. The leaves droop from the plant trying to restrict uptake, it is actually being dehydrated from all the salts and the very very super duper dry air!! lol Just tryting to get the point across.
     
    What you heard about the hydrometers is WRONG. What is a better reading? A slightly if any miniscule amount off rh reading, or a guesstimation/no meter reading? I think you will be best with the reading. ;) I can tell you have spent too much time on IC mag forum.... :gc_rocks:
     
    If I were you i'd lower the ppm and stop messing with them while they adjust. Get the RH up! Your growth is going to stay stunted until you do. Again, the rh is way too low! I can tell just by looking at them, and they are screaming at me to tell you that. Keep misting but lose the epsom salt. Rain water is 0ppm and that's what plants like to be sprayed with.
     
     
    You are here asking for help, correct? Well please don't let me be wasting my time. If you want to figure things out the hard way like I had too then fine more power to you. Whatever doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, right? Well, yes, but you sure will be deciding to take the scenic route to get to the same place. No offense, no hard feelings, and one love bro! :metal:
     
  11. #11 Dimebong, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
     
    Well this is the article i read it off, what do you expect me to think after reading that. I haven't gone through a full week at all without the water suddenly turning cloudy and making the pH move up. What about the brown stuff growing on the airstones?
     
    "When a clear snot forms on roots in a DWC, and the normal course of treatment for root disease doesn't work, you probably have something called brown slime algae, which actually isn't algae at all, but a cyanobacteria. It loves oxygen and doesn't need light to grow. It doesn't care if your res is chilled or not. Safe levels of H202 slows it a bit but doesn't cure it. It can show up for DWC growers for no apparent reason even after years of successful grows. Once it shows up it's often a nightmare to get rid of."http://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/361430-dwc-root-slime-cure-aka.html
     
    I washed the roots again thoroughly yesterday as the roots were alot worse after i posted that message, worse than ever. 
    I put them back in the buckets with plain water so i guess i'll keep them in there and see if it comes back. Or should there
    be nutrients right away, maybe 50ppm when they are better?
     
    Accidentally left my chiller on overnight and the water was 32F, hope that doesn't cause too many problems. temp controller has arrived today though. I also broke my control rez air stone so yea, soil is looking pretty good to me, but i'll wait it out.
     
    What to do about humidity. I have no money for a humidifier, and it's never caused problems like i'm having
    before. It has continuous fresh air being pumped in and apparently humidity in my town is about 60%. These plants started getting budrot as well at the end of flower from humidity, and they were a bit close together,
    but i'll try anything:
     
    Week 4.JPG
     
  12. #12 Dro Smoe, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
    As bizie said, get a damn hygrometer.. They're 10 bucks at Home Depot.. Off or not, they're a LOT closer than nothing at all lol.. I'd back off of those ferts (the Npk rates seem erratic) and stick with something tried and true like GH..

    Your complete grow conditions along with some pics of the roots would be nice.. Speculating is really just a waste of time..
    I think it's safe to say that the 32 degree water shocked the hell out of them and will require a little time for them to pick back up if it doesn't just aid in their demise..

    Yea the plant in the pic above could have used more attention during veg... The key to a healthy harvest is a properly prepared plant long before it goes 12/12. You want to cut any branches that are under an 1/8th of an inch before flowering. They're just suckers that take away from the buds that are actually receiving light at the canopy level - not to mention, the popcorn is a pita to manicure. Read up a little more on pruning and training techniques - http://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/239247 -you'll thank me for that later lol excellent link!


    Edit: for humidity you could set up another bucket with some aeration and blow a fan across the top, or hang some wet towels (not crazy for this one) .. Btw humidifiers go for like 20 bucks (for such a small space) for a quick fix if you can't afford a better one at the moment.
     
  13. #13 Dimebong, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
     
    Not even $10 is doable at this point in time. Not for atleast another few weeks. We have about
    $40 left for food after bills every week and that will be for at least a few weeks.
     
    The reason i bought those nutrients was because at the time i didn't think i'd have enough
    money to set it all up properly if i didn't budget hard, then some money came along
    so i bought canna for flower but kept those cheap ones because i didn't want to waste
    money and someone vegged a pound plant in 1.5 months using them, i spent the rest of
    what i had on a 570cfm fan that's too powerful for me to run, and a cooltube i can't use without a fan,
    and a few other things.
     
     
    There isn't much more i can say about the grow conditions, i've talked about everything i can think
    of in that closet so i took a few photos.
     
    I'll set that temp controller to bring it down to 64 everytime it reaches 68 once i figure out how to get the tight screws out of wire terminals in the chiller.
     
    (kushberry roots)
     
    Kushberry.JPG
     
    (sage 'n sour roots)
     
    sage n sour.JPG
     
    The bubbles here look pretty weak without the airstone. It's just a small air pump for this bucket only.
    The water pump is always on. I'm using the cfl's again for now attached to the mh. Exhaust goes into the attic which made the house smell last time. Duct goes through the roof tiles.
     
    DSCF1001.JPG DSCF1008.JPG DSCF1002.JPG DSCF1006.JPG
     
  14.  
    I'll try the bucket thing with a computer fan.
     
     
    Those were 4 plants squeezed together. I lollipopeed half way up each of em but it wasn't enough,
    i was reluctant to go up too far but yea this time i was planning on doing a scrog and lollipop
    anything underneath. I hated pulling all the tops up that fell under the canopy all the time, it
    was an endless battle:
     
    Week 6.JPG
     
    Glad i didn't loose too much of the harvest.
     
  15. #15 Dro Smoe, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
    Sorry that your on hard times financially, I've been there so I feel for ya bro..

    I would venture to say that one of your problems seems to be a lack of o2 which will help anaerobic bacteria to flourish - though 32 degrees should have helped to slow them down a little at the moment lol. The rule of thumb is a minimum of 1 watt per gallon, though I personally double that - the more the merrier IMO until the water is completely saturated that is.

    That almost looks like early symptoms of root rot (unless there's humic acids in those nutes), but for your sake hopefully I'm wrong (certainly not a pro, but I do have about 14 years of dabbling experience).. I say that because of the drooping, funky spotting (resembles manganese def) and symptoms of overwatering, but again that could just go back to insufficient levels of o2 hence overwatering .. Any funky smells coming from the roots?

    Without some money I'm not sure how to help ya really.. Firstly, I'd can the h202 - it kills bennies along with everything else.. Stabilize the temp- as it seems you have now.. Get that MH on and can those little cfl's, they're useless apart from supplemental lighting.. In the future you'd be better with t5's if you're not using the hid's.. Try to grab another air pump if at all possible, or fill us in on the wattage of yours.. What are your room temps, did I miss that?
     
  16. #16 Dimebong, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
     
    With the metal halide on it's about 25-28 degrees on average. Air pump for the plants is 3w 420litres per hour. Total amount of water circulating is 10 gal, the control rez pump is 3w 160lph, it's alot weaker so it must be inefficient.
     
     
     
    The plants were looking really good when they were first put into 50ppm. I could see new growth and new roots, then it stopped.
     
    If it's possible to fix the problems with what i've got then i'll try it, but if not i still have everything to make some potting mix up
    so i can buy everything i need for dwc round 2. I just hope i don't loose the sage n sour. I only have
    1 fem seed of that left, but i have plenty of the kushberry.
     
  17. Yea the temps are good! But I'd at least double your air pump (when feasible),and get the mh going.
    It's worth a shot sticking with the dwc IMO, if it we're rot it'd be much more manageable in the bucket than soil..
    You wouldn't be able to monitor recovery if her roots were in the dirt lol.. Work on a pump - scrap, change $ etc... 5 bucks or somethin at walmart..
     
  18. #18 bizie, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
     Dang man I cant believe you would rather feed your plants then yourself. If money was a issue then you should buy one bottle and use that in every stage and that's it. A dynagro grow bottle will work fine for seedling, veg, and flower. Add a little silica if you can afford it but that's it. No boosters are needed and nothing else. I'm telling you man, these things basically grow on their own.
     
     Yes, heisenburg tea, yea yea I know I've used it, that guy is awesome and his dedication to the cannabis community is amazing. He knows more about slime then slime knows about slime. The tea can help but its not needed and the slime does not just appear out of no where. Physics does not allow any matter to appear out of thin air, it is literally PHYSICALLY impossible. The slime starts multiplying from dead organic matter. This can be organic nutes or organic roots. Dead roots are the ones that are to weak to fight off any disease so the bacteria start to multiply here. The roots die when they restrict uptake from the high salts or a abundant mineral (a simple out of tune ratio can do this). Bad bacteria is everywhere around us and it is literally impossible to get rid of all bacteria; It is your plants immune system (aka SAR or system acquired resistance) job to defend the bacteria. If the plant has dead roots then those roots cant defend didilly. There are some dwc growers that swear by adding beneficial bacteria (these are always present also) and this can help because these kill the bad bacteria. But IME the best thing is to never have the bad bacteria start and this is by keeping a healthy plant that is properly up taking water constantly and continuously generating new healthy roots. That is the way a plant is designed to work. It is suppose to make roots all through its life. I have even used that tea but it seemed to throw my ph off, was a mess, pain mixing and adding every three days, and really I was adding more minerals, and to what content I was unsure of. For me adding more things (like I've said) seems to always make things more difficult.
     
    The brown stuff on the air stone is the bacteria multiplying. Clean them. To clean your stones rinse them and brush them and you can microwave them for a minute to disinfectant them. Remember no metal in the microwave, some stones have a metal nipple that will need removed first. Then while they are warm attach a hose and blow into there with everything ya got (I use a air compressor) Don't hurt your self by blowing too hard lol no pun intended. lol. The porous surface of the stones hold all kinds of organic matter in there for the bacteria to eat, oxygen wont kill them but removing their food source will, i.e any dead or organic matter. When I or anyone adds that tea we are just guaranteeing that the battle would never end of the good and bad bacteria in the system and that's why the ph will always go all over the place. The tea just ensures that the good bacteria will always out number the bad bacteria and it should not spread and may even decline it it has started. The fact is though, when you add that tea you are always adding more organic matter and more minerals; imo this will ensure your mineral ratio is off and that you will always have food in there for the bad bacteria to eat so it will always be there and you will always need the tea, then you will be in the revolving door cycle until you can grow a healthy vigorous plant with out special cocktails. Just my view from a professional standpoint; anyone that needs a special boobonic formula to grow a self growing plant is not a professional, but a hobbyist.
     
    Start off this way for DWC- Base nute of your choice that is mostly clear. This will ensure there is no organic material. A one part is cheapest. Then add some silica; grow some grows with only this. When you get that down then start adding sea kelp product but ONLY to a healthy vigorous plant or the bad bacteria will take over. There are a few proven additives and kelp and silica are a couple. Run low ec's because water holds more oxygen with less salts, dwc is different then any growing style because the plant are feed 24hrs so ppm/ec can and should be ran much lower then any other growing style.
     
    Other then that I think I already told you how to fix your problem in the last post..but I'm nice so ill type away...misting temporarily raises the rh so do that but with out the epsom salt! Run low nutes but not no nutes because that shocks the plant and can also make things worse. The fan on the bucket will raise the rh but only a very small amount.
     
    Also on the humidity you said about 60% in your area right? Well about average you would minus 20% of that for what your lights are going to burn up; putting you around 40% at the canopy :cool:. Btw, I know your checking the weather station for rh readings now :ey: That's probably has to be the most accurate way ;) Sorry, I couldn't help that one. :laughing:
     
    Na but for real mate you need to learn about VPD and you will learn how the airs temperature effects how much water it can hold and that warm air at 60% rh has a lot more water in it the cold air at 60%rh. You need the temp configured into the humidity to get a accurate relative humidity reading. Relative, meaning relating to the temperature. You cant have one with out the other bro its love&marriage lol I'm too old.... Bizie out :bongin:
     
  19. #19 Dimebong, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2014
     
    Well the stuff pays for itself and i haven't really had to contribute much from my income to keep everything running in
    there.
     
    Ill put the canna florez back in then. Part A is clear and part B is like purple food coloring in water. I'll probably be able to grab
    some more nutes and a cheap pump in a month or so.  I'll also put the fan up for sale. They go for alot more here
    than what i paid and it's still new, i just wonder if it'll sell.
     
    I'll update whether these fixes work or not after a bit of recovery time. Hope it doesn't spread without h202
     
    Edit: shit, forgot to say thanks
     
  20. Oh well the slime came back with the 50ppm nutes, chiller set to 62-68F. They look good so i'm gonna soak in h202 water and transplant to soil and grow 2 seeds alongside. I'll do rdwc next time with some new buckets that i can clean properly.
     
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