This isn't a thought I processed much, but it seems like people treat nature like a religion.. Been thinking a lot about evolution, adaptation, those types of things and it seems like everyone says "It's just nature, that's how it is" with no further explanation. I don't see nature as the controlling force for evolution, it's almost like believing in fate.. It's just one of several outside factors. I didn't dive too deep into it, just something I noticed. Seems like saying 'it's just how nature is' is a quick way out of having to try and explain it.. Same as when religious people say that that's just how God works. Anyone else feel the same?
I don't see how it suggests believing in fate. Personifying "mother nature" as the overseer of evolution is just a way of summarising the arms race that is evolutions' mutation and adaption process. Species and life on this planet, and presumably, throughout the universe, adapt to their environment to try and secure their population rate and continue to spread their genes. However, because the environment pertains to other creatures that might be prey or predator to any given life form, this means that mutations and adaptions are constantly happening to try establish efficient ways to survive. When saying 'this is how nature is' it's just a quicker way of indicating "mother nature"s resilience and diligence - another synonym for instinct - towards survival.
It's like personifying nature though. Just a far out example, say all grass is green. So grasshoppers evolved green. Not saying they actually will, but if you somehow change all the grass red, they'll evolve/adapt red coloring to survive better. Don't think I am saying that I believe if you throw a cricket into a red environment, that same cricket will turn red.. Just trying to illustrate my idea. Nature didn't cause the change, the grasshopper did. It's need for survival made it happen. Just like species out there what only have like one male who mates. If he dies, a female turns into a male and goes to work. Nature didn't change him/her, it did it. Sure, you could argue "Well that's what nature is silly.." but I see people looking at it like it's an all powerful creator. If nature makes life, why does it need to evolve anything? Why can't it just make it how it wants it right off the bat? There was this spider I saw a week or 2 ago. It was a small black jumping spider, but it looked like an ant. It was the ant-mimic jumping spider.. It was incredible. Pretended like it's front legs were ant antennae and it's body also grew to appear like it had 3 segments, just like ants. That was a thing that needed to evolve. Somewhere in the spider's family tree was the start.. There was a spider that seen life would be easier pretending to be an ant. I don't know what it did to do it, but that got the ball rolling for it's future generations. Some may want to try the ant thing, some don't. But the ones who want it will continue doing whatever it is it that does it. If nature wanted that spider to pretend it was an ant, it would of happened from the get go. It was the spider(s) that wanted it. Don't know if this is making sense, but to me, it's all on life to do what it does. Nature is just a force that has no control and exists beside/with life.
The grasshopper didn't consciously decide to change red though, and in such a drastic example as you have suggested there is a definite chance that the grasshopper that lived among the red grass would be under constant threat and thus face extinction. Evolution isn't like a dial the owner, or life, just twists from one attribute (for instance, colour) to another to suit themselves. Hopefully a more reddish grasshopper will mutate, be apt for surviving in the new red environment then breed and spread this mutation as the dominant gene that relates to colour. The spider your example also didn't 'see' the ant and decide to mimic it in the hope that he/she could blend in with the ant species to enable a more effective means of survival. When a species comes under distress it needs to adapt in order to maintain it's survival, thus some will mutate in ways that don't work and others might get lucky and adapt ever so slightly that it's chances increase... this is then refined, honed and improved over successive mutations until it's a capable 'design'. The spider didn't look like a spider one day then an ant the next, it took many many years. Again i like the analogy of the arms race to describe the sense of competition within 'nature' as a whole, a enormous ecosystem where everything relies on each other, but at the same time must compete to achieve their own alturistic needs. Nature is life, but rather than look at it as omnipotent or intelligent, understand it as a force just like gravity or electromagnetism.
That's why I love this ant-mimic spider example. Not only is it my two favorite bugs in one, kind of, it's a prime example. The fact that you say they hone and improve it, shows me they have awareness. If they weren't aware, those who showed the first physical change probably wouldn't have been mated. These spiders started off as spiders. The first one to show a slight mutation would probably be shunned, or even killed, or just never got laid. Animals/people do it all the time, for the greater good. They don't want defects, they want their bloodline/species to be strong. Same reason sick or injured ones typically get the bottom of the barrel. Back to my overly unreal, drastic grasshopper example. Once the slightly red mutation makes an appearance, a GH that is bright green isn't going to want to mate with it, it's ugly. There has to be an awareness somewhere. That first one that comes out shit brown is going to stick out not only in it's environment, but stick out among it's own kind. Evolution can happen faster in species than with others, even more so in insects. Waiting til a mutation pops up and taking advantage of it isn't efficient. If the green grasshoppers were mutating other colors, say blue was in there. A green couple have 1,000 babies, 1 is beginning to mutate red, and 1 mutating blue. Both of them are going to be different looking, still not suited for their environment. If there wasn't some kind of awareness for defects, both would get mated. If green could survive, so could blue. If you think blue wouldn't survive, how would green? They'd get killed off before they have a chance to mate and take advantage of a red mutation. If this grasshopper thing was a real thing, do you really think there would be blue ones? If it's possible to randomly mutate into red, why can't other colors mutate as well? The first ones showing any red or blue would more than likely both just look like a shitty dark green. The red trait would have just as good of a chance as the blue trait developing. Insects are pretty picky when it comes to mating. The beginning of a red mutation would be treated the same as the first to show any blue, yet you'll won't see blue continue. They're aware they need the red line to continue it and would do so. "It's just nature" doesn't cut it. It's an easy out. We think we're the only ones aware of what needs done to live.. A female praying mantis wants her bloodline to continue, that's why she kills the male. She wants all praying mantis' out there to be her's. If she kills the male, he can't mate with any other females. It's why lions kill off the cubs when they take over a pride. It's not just about being overthrown, it's about spreading their seed and only theirs. They want males that are part of them to be the ones to continue.. Mice typically eat their babies if they're defected. If for some reason mice needed to evolve wings, what do you think would happen to the first one who maybe had some nubs where wings would evolve? It'd get it's ass eaten.. If that's not an awareness, then what is it? Everyone else probably calls it instinct. I think that word gets thrown around too much.. Humans as a whole like to think they're special and unique, but we're not. That word was just a word created to separate us from animals.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UfMJJAzvbI]The dance of bolas spider with its prey - YouTube[/ame] Check this video out. Here is how I see it. Somewhere along the line, that spider wanted to look like a pile of bird shit, lol. Not only that, it releases pheromones specific to the moth that is around. That's not nature doing nature, that's the spider doing that. It's aware of what it is doing, not "just instinct"..
Good discussion. The cases really don't need the organism to be aware however, anymore than we and other mammals have to be aware that goosebumps serve to make sufficiently hairy creatures appear larger. I hadn't any idea of its function for most of my life and its doubtful any chimp has a clue, but it might have saved the chimp on several occasions. If the bolas spider used pheromones or excreted any sort of enzymes, a mutation making one enzyme similar to any of its' prey's pheromones would start reeling them in, completely independent of the spider's will. A mutation attracting say, wasp, quickly brings death to the spider, mortified after realizing wasps seem to love him. As more successful bolas spiders build up, its prey will start tending towards better and better ability to discriminate between its own and the fake pheromones. Then completely under the spiders awareness, the molecule will become more like the real pheromone as generations pass; an amino acid here and another here, and so forth in accordance with the preys' increasing skill in discriminating. So its the combination of the two forces changing each creature: the knock-off pheromone only tends toward higher similarity if the pheromones owner begins to be less interested by it; and each species can be completely oblivious to the notion of 'pheromone.' If grass turned red, grasshoppers may near extinction , but the ones bouncing back would undoubtedly be the darkest shades of green, hardest to see against the red. Without them knowing their problem, generations of lighter colors would be removed from the population by dying, leaving darker, successively more red, shades of grasshopper to accumulate.
Everyone agrees to seem that there is an awareness there at some point. Why does it have to come after a skill/trait has developed? I'm not claiming that just being aware of what needs done does it, but why can't they be aware of what they need to change to live? When a new (positive) trait comes out, it's clear it gets worked on. New traits as they're developing are going to appear as defects, and defects don't make it far.. The new traits that are for the better make it through though. How do we know that they don't know what they're doing when it comes to improving their species? We look at it like a random game of chance, let nature be nature. I don't think it's chance, I think there is an awareness that's there. Not saying they're like us and have random thoughts and shit through the day, just an awareness of life. It's why I think people rely too much on saying that it's just how nature is.. To me, it's just like saying fate controls your life.
They aren't aware of what they need to do to improve their lives because they aren't even self-aware to begin with. If you put a mirror in front of a spider it wouldn't recognise itself and understand the situation. Animals live on reactions and instincts, when they sense danger they fly or fight, when they are hungry they search for food etc etc. How could one animal in a species possibly know what is best for the species as a whole? Some mutations work and some do not, those that do work are just a by-product of a changing environment and ecosystem and with chance has enabled an increased chance of survival. Then this mutation is bred through, possibly improving but maybe becoming a hindrance in the long run. As a species, humans are adaptive (so adaptive in fact i cant see a situation that could fully exterminate us in the near future of this planet) but there are plenty of species that can't adapt and mutate like we can to suite a change in environment. Take the anteater for instance, if suddenly the population of ants were to be stricken from the planet they would not be able to evolve, adapt and mutate quick enough to encompass another food source. Thus, the would equally face extinction. When you speak of this awareness or conscious it gives the impression you don't fully understand evolution and how it has worked throughout the years. It's not a fall proof method of perfection but when something counters a species existence there are always ways for that animal to strife for survival. A good example of this would be in the ocean, where shrimp lay eggs near the surface so as light can help the eggs grow faster. This obviously attracts the attention of critters near the shallow that could get a quick meal. Solution for the shrimps now there eggs are being eaten? Lay a whole lot more of them (over time, of course). It's that simple. So many eggs are laid by these shrimp now that it's just too overwhelming for the predators preying on them. Survival of the fittest.
I know some people say that evolution is just mutations that occur when a species is under stress that randomly happen. Then once a suitable mutation occurs, it gets honed and improved on. There are also people out there who think that most of the info is already in the DNA and gets "opened" up. Then there is this other wild idea that there is an almighty creator who is in control of all that. Evolution, to me, is both fact and theory still. I am pretty open when it comes to just about everything. Don't confuse my openness for ignorance.. I won't knock anyone for a theory or idea. I'll give my opinion on it, if they're open to new things, my theory or idea might fit in better than their current. If not, they're free to believe what they want. Now back to the theories. I agree with survival of the fittest, but I don't agree it's random mutations. I am not saying there is a plan laid out either.. I have an idea I am working on and just like evolution, I want to work the kinks out of it. Til then, I am taking in information and what other people believe. To the statement in bold, do you think humans are the only species that is self aware? Do you think humans are the only animals with emotions? If you say yes, I hate to say it, but that shows me closed mindedness. Debating with someone who is closed minded goes nowhere.. An anteater doesn't eat only ants.. They feed on ants, termites, fruits, other bugs. They will not die off if ants disappear, they'll be able to eat other bugs in the meantime. They'll adapt/evolve. Not really too relevant, lol, just figured I'd point that out. You'll find no frustration on my end, but before I continue debating evolution, I'd like to know what you believe in terms of humans being the only life form on Earth with emotions and self awareness..
Let me try to explain this awareness thing I am trying to get across. Let's look at ants and other colony insects. They typically have a queen, when that queen dies, another steps up. Everyone else would call that instinct, but I call that being aware of what needs done. A lizard that changes it's colors to better suit it's environment, is awareness. Not saying it's self aware, but it's aware it's alive and will do what needs done to live. When I see a species going through some crazy mating ritual, I see them as being aware of what they are doing. They go for the best male they can find, because they're aware that it's better for it's species. I've been watching a lot of nature shows lately.. I can't remember which ones exactly cause I've seen so many, lol, but there would be talk of emotions and such. Then they'd say instinct about something else. They're pretty much one in the same.. A fly is afraid of that hairy ass spider jumping his way, he is going to fly away. Most call it instinct, I see it as fear. When you're in the shower and have your eyes closed cause you're rinsing your hair out and when you open them there's a bigass spider dangling in front of your face and you jump back out of fear, that's a reaction to an emotion. Most would call it an emotional response, I would too. So why do we call it instinct with nonhuman species? What makes our fear, or greed, or hate, or love any different than theirs? Nothing.. Instinct is a word created to separate us from them. When you're watching a crocodile trying to drown a wildebeest and it's taking an hour, both are tired and you wonder "What's that thing thinking?" After an hour, that thing is thinking in it's head "This sucks, I want to live, this hurts, I hate you thing in the water" Or when a rabbit is running from 3 foxes and you're thinking it's thinking "oh shit oh shit oh shit, need to run" you're probably right! Many animals have a form of communication, right? So why can't they communicate their emotions? If you think about that question, you might see where I am coming from. When I look at them, I see them communicating their emotions. When you get attacked by an animal, you express you're fear with a scream (or curse ). Other animals do that too.. Not only that, you're thinking about it because you're aware, and I think they all do the same. If anyone is still reading, bravo. So back to this awareness that I see and how it changes things. I am going to use another example.. There is a fish species where there is only 1 male in the school. When that males dies, a female will transform into a male. It was aware of what was going on and knew it needed to go penis swinging for the greater good of it's species. So if there can be an awareness in a bolas spider as to what pheromones to put out, or an awareness that it's best to mate with the strongest of your species for the greater good, or an awareness in a lizard to change from green to brown, I can list a million different other examples, but yet there can't be an awareness in evolution? Why can't a species be aware that they need to grow another 6 inches taller to properly reach their favorite food? Others would say that species would then instinctively mate with the tallest of males, I'd say that is them being aware of what needs done and doing it for the greater good of the species.. Evolution is a targeted thing to me.. When I was thinking about animals and emotions, I was wondering which ones we share. If there were any we don't, then I was wondering if plants had them. I know I know, everyone says no.. But if you think about it, we all came from ONE common ancestor.. So we all share at least one thing. I was thinking about what that one thing could be.. And it hit me, I think. I'm still trying to iron it out in my head, but along the way to that idea is when I started to see evolution not as a game of chance, but a targeted affair. That nature wasn't the actual controlling force, it's just a player. Nature is doing it's own thing with no regard or control. Life makes it's changes to compensate for what nature does to live better. They have reason for everything they do in life.. That's why I say evolution is a targeted thing. They're doing what they need to do to live more comfortable. The anteater evolved it's ant eating skills and traits not out of necessity, it could live without ants. It evolved it's skill set to live more comfortably.. So that's why I think people use nature as a scapegoat, a religion.. When I see the actions of other life, I see reason to it. We want to think we're special.. we're not. We're pretty much talking about the same thing, just from a different view point.. except that I see evolution as a targeted thing..
I'm not trying to force anyone to see what I see and even if they did, I don't know if they'd feel as I feel. When this all hit me, it seriously changed something. I look at life in whole differently, I can't really explain it, I just feel more peaceful. It felt like it was something that is ignored, right under my nose, on the tip of my tongue, chip on my shoulder, whatever you want to call it, gone. That damn anteater.. Here is how I see it. They're related to sloths, I can see the relation. Say you trace them both back to their common ancestor and sloths and anteaters were the only things to evolve from it. That ancestor was roaming for food and came across an environment that was trees, tons of insects, and ant hills. They were munching on all 3. Even though they could eat all 3, some preferred busting open ant hills. The others preferred the trees. Their goal in life is to live and spread life, that's what they want. Mutations occur, one male has a shorter nose, another has a slightly longer nose. The females are going to want to fuck his brains out. Not out of instinct, but cause they know he is going to provide better, he is hot to them, gets their cooters wet. The shorter nosed one will be considered ugly and lucky to even mate once. They're targeting that. They know what they are doing.. They're in control of their future, not nature. Just like there isn't anything in control of us (in my eyes). That's why I think nature is treated like a religion, like there is this force controlling it.. There isn't.
The quantum incertainty principle should settle any quarrels with fate as far as nature as a religion, no because its not an organized set of beliefes with a central worship. worship is really the key word.
Perhaps religion isn't the right word, more like fate. That idea that someone else is in control of your life.. It really helped me let go of the word fate. Other life besides humans knows what it is doing. Every skill set, adaptation, traits were done with reason. When the anteater was developing it's snout, it actively mated for that trait. I don't see it as instinct, I see it as the male with the longest snout got them horny. They were physically attracted to that trait, knowing that that trait will be better in the long run. They're aware of what they're doing. It's why animals go through all those crazy mating rituals, to size up their mate to make sure he isn't weak or defective. They do that for their species.. If an animal didn't care about it's species as a whole, they wouldn't care about mating with the best male, might not even mate at all.. They do everything we do and we do everything they do. Humans like to think we're separate from them, we don't want to think they're actively in control of their future.. They're just like us, only difference is we got hands and never learned to control our emotions. Just like we're in control of our lives, so are they. It's not that hard to take in I think.. First God was in control of us, then we were the center of the universe, then the Earth was flat, blah blah blah, now humans are the only ones with emotion and drive. I understand the concept of natural selection, but I am saying it's not a game of chance like most people think.
No i don't think Animals are the only species that are self-aware, i know of animals that are. However, there is definite differences when experiments are ran on these animals. For instance, Chimpanzees' are self aware and can learn to recognise themselves over time. The differences arise when you begin to test creativity and appealing to a problem solving nature. Emotions are a different matter. Who's to say that they have to have the same emotions as us and feel them in a similar way?
I don't think they have the same exact emotions as us, just that same core emotions. How they go about acting on those emotions is a different story. But here is what I see. I see animals/species go through intense, dramatic mating rituals, to weed out the weaker ones. I think it's the blue whale, the female will swim for miles with a team of males waiting behind her. At first it's all fun and games, for the first hour or so. The males sing to her, do tricks for her to try and impress her, but she keeps going. After so long, the males start to get upset. They begin to fight each other, viciously, until there is ONE winner. She knowingly did that to weed out the week ones. I see that as being aware of what she is doing. I also see them devote enormous amounts of time and energy into bringing their young, copies of them, into the world. If they didn't want that, they wouldn't. That made me see that pretty much most life has one goal, to live as comfortably as possible and to continue their species. I don't think they're fully aware of the complete situation though. Like if they're down to the last 2 breeding pairs, they may not even know it and continue with the basic concept of living. So it's not crazy to think they do all that stuff for themselves and their kind. So why is it crazy to think they willingly breed for traits? Why is it crazy to think that they're aware of what they need to do to continue their species? Not saying they're self aware, just aware. Those anteaters don't feed on ONLY ants, it's their favorite food. Before they split into sloths and anteaters and others, they were one species. Who is to say that some of them just didn't prefer to eat ants? It was easy to them. The male with the longest snout is going to be sought after. The male who got the shit end of the stick and who's snout is way shorter isn't going to be attractive to them. They know he his weak. They're not going to actively and willingly bring in shitty genes. Yes, it is cause and effect, it is natural selection, but I am saying they know what they're doing with it.. People like to think they're just there, running like living machines with no purpose.
People deify what they don't understand. Humanity has been about this since the beginning, and there is much about the universe we don't understand.