Androgenicx, we inheriantly disagree I guess, because my view when I die is all that matters is what you have done, while you if I read it right don't feel the same. We have contradicting views, furthermore I brought up Buddha because he was the earliest person I could think of that spread meditation to the masses with his teachings. Also you said: "Where has "progress" brought us? We have to now start looking for another planet to live on, while our world is slowly becoming more lazy, living an average number of less years, is more divided and personalized, is more stressed, is more polluted, is more confused and more painful than ever." Progress has given you the ability to meditate. More over, we are less than 50 years off from getting off of fossil fuels completely, we over produce food to feed most of the world, and if you look research will easily show you that the most productive nations are the happiest and the least productive nations are the saddest. The more humans push foward, the better we are off as a populous. Also I am not trying to shit on meditation, but it is not something I feel you should base a life around. I do it quite frequently, and I want you to understand, when I said you go to another world. I meant your mind, it is a world within itself. PS I don't mean to pick out a few things you said, but I am low on time this morning.
To me it doesnt matter what you have done, when your dead you exist no longer to care or know about how you impacted the world or how people think of you after your death. How each short moment is lived while alive is the most important thing to me - how it is experienced, not what is done with it. How has progress given me the ability to meditate? Meditation is a state of mind, my existence gives me the ability to meditate. It is primordial, it has nothing to do with progress, how are you making this connection? Again, what is this happiness? If a world has been in darkness for thousands of years and forgotten the possibility of a happiness that is much larger, much more encompassing, much more brilliant, than anything above the now-today acceptable level of suffering is considered happiness. Standard of living and "happiness scales" are not good indicators of personal contentment with existence - the one you answer only to yourself, but often tell other people is "acceptable" and makes you "happy". Meditation doesn't take you to another world, even in your mind. Your in another world already - always thinking, always in imagination or the past, lost in your own delusion of what you think is reality. When you meditate you come into the now. You don't go into any other world. You fall fully into the only one that exists. Its not transcendental. It is simply being fully grounded in reality.
If the cultivation of rice hadn't been furthered like it was in Asia you would had never seen Meditation come about the way it did, just as all religious and spiritual things come about. When people become productive enough to not spend ever minute of every day trying to stay alive, they have the ability come up with practices such as meditation. I don't understand you disdain with human progress, just the fact human progress has made it so us two can debate over the internet over vast distances should be enough. If we can't come to terms on simple things such as these, I really don't see the point in furthering this discussion. You tell me I am talking to you in patches, I respond your are talking to me in circles.
Meditation formally started in far ancient India, so your rice theory goes out the window. Furthermore, meditation is there - it is just a state of dealing with your own consciousness, anyone could have been the "first" to discover it, anyone could have discovered it, hunter gatherer nomad or latter age civilization. Meditation can be spiritual, it is just a state of mind it on its own has nothing to do with spirituality. I talk in circles because I have only one point, which you do not successfully counter, instead each time adding new elements. Why would I go outside the circle when the circle hasnt been dealt with? I don't have disdain for human progress, I point out coldly that it has done little positive in the truest sense. Without awareness and inner growth, grounding and understanding, all this progress is not only useless it more often than not serves as counterproductive. We wouldn't have to debate, there would be nothing to debate, if meditation was the core of human experience from the start, instead of conquering and "progress" being the main human imperative. The internet is great, now, it is in fact one of the biggest reasons and helps to awaken the world now, but it is one part with some sense in a world of senseless chaos, where the chaos wouldn't have come to be in the first place if meditation was the mainstay of the human experience.
Why do you think the Indian's hold the Cow to be so holy? It's because they help tremendously with improving there quality of life. You add a plow into the mix and you got yourself a highly productive cultivation method. Rice is also a big deal in India bro. Maybe not so much in recent years since Americas taught them how to grow grain efficiently, but for the past hundreds of years, Rice was a big deal. http://www.rice-trade.com/rice-cultivation-india.html I bolded most of the parts I highly disagree, progress come before enlightenment because nobody can find the ability to truly become enlightened before they have the means take time from work to do things like meditation. Before such inovations, Budha would not of been able to take time from his day to reach enlightenment, he would of widdled his life away doing tasks we now find trivial like basic necessities. Technology and Human progress has done more to get people to reach enlightenment than ever before, so this little positive you speak of makes me sick to my stomach. You obviously are very spiratual, I don't see the disconnect with progress. It seems overtly conservative, something I have heard many budhist talk agianst, being overtly conservative that is. Many scientists and men who strive to make our world highly productive through technology have talked very positively of meditation, why are you, a deeply spiratual person so overtly negative.
I'm an Indian, and cows are considered sacred due to their unselfish giving. Your saying stuff that is just downright untrue. A cows milk is drunk, it is considered a mother. It is a peaceful animal, always giving, and takes nothing in return. That is why it is considered sacred, nothing to do with productivity. Yes, progress to a stage of self sufficiency through rudimentary automation, technology, farming, etc, are what allow us to not be like animals and have time for other things. How hard is it to feed yourself and have shelter? I'm not talking in NYC or any specific place, im talking in this world? You can build a shelter out of wood, have the cities we have today to protect from predators, pluck fruit from abundant trees or farm it yourself. Those are necessities. Everything beyond is human creation, including formalized relationships. After that point, the remaining technology and progress helps this cause how? Space research, machinary research, entertainment research, computer research, helps this how? Like I said, progress is not useless, but the direction it has taken is, and the absence of meditation and inner science as the backbone of existence are useless. I am not negative at all, that is your feeling and your assumption that you think is truth without ever seeing my face. I am a strong writer with hard and bold words - I feel technology and progress are/were necessary, but have blown way off course, and are a nuisance more than anything anymore. It is this very addiction to technology and progress that causes the civilized world to have to work, and in turn have less time for inner science, requiring "Taking time off from work". Taking time off from work is a human invention, it does not preclude meditation, meditation is more primordial and precludes all relationships, all worldly attachments jobs whatever. When it isn't, it is simply emotional attachment to the rest of it and/or lack of having had an awakening experience of any kind. Again I say, and I don't see where it wasn't made clear that you are unable to get my point, technology is fine, the backbone must be silent inner science for bliss and absolvation on a personal and global level. Technology after the level where we learned to become self sufficient to the most basic needs is not even 1/100th as important as inner science, while today it is 100,000 times more indulged in.
Look man, I am sorry if I am turning this into a religious discussion, but let be give an analogy that contradicts your cows milk thing. If you look at the Latin meaning of Lucifer, you will find out that it means literally, "falling star" as most biblical references are references of the astrological. If you were to tell a christian today that his religion were that of astrology, they would call blasphemy, even though the literal definition of most biblical references can be traced back directly to astrology. That is the same thing you are doing here with the cows milk, you are transfering what it was originally used for to something else because ritual now says otherwise. Well, let me tell you, it is more than likely cows were worshiped for there furthering in agriculture, not in there milk. Most ancient societies worshipped the cow, they may give there own interpretations, but it is because mainly they allowed the people the ability to produce more food. You bring up computer research and why that is important, let me give you one example relating to my field of study, Agronomy. Right now computers are not at the ability to sequence genese fast enough to make gene sequencing a reliable way of going about coming up with new genes. The computers are just no powerful and efficient enough to do so. Why you ask is this important? You might just say if you saw this, it's just a bunch of giberish right? Wrong, this is the gene for the Bubonic plague, if you were to see this in someone, this is a big deal. What gene sequencing will allow us to do is read from someone DNA there entire gene history. From that we can tell every diease you have had and have at that moment, if you have cancer, and even what your parents and there parents medical history was. That is just the simple way of reading the gene, that does not even get into how they are figuring how to rewrite genes. That means we could erase the problems humans had had with Diabetes, and even almost reduce the possibility for cancer to non existant in people. The possibilities are endless. This also has the possibility to bring back extinct animals, so all those animals that were wronged by human existance and even ones who were not like the dinosaurs could also come back.
It has nothing to do with what ritual now says. In India most people tosay don't even know or seek to know why the cow is worshipped, they just worship it because it has always been worshipped. You coming up with your own theories with rudimentary study of Indian texts is no kind of logical counterpoint at all. It falls flat - it is simply completely untrue. If you study the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads and some of the other texts, you will know that this is the most ancient reason, not the reason that you just invented. It is quite apparent that you miss the point of existential understanding and bliss, meditation and enlightened existence altogether. Life will never go on forever, no matter how many diseases you cure and eradicate. New ones will come up, or at the least one will die from ageing. There is nothing wrong with medicine and research of this kind, but what are these livespans being increased for? Most of humanity if you ask them they are "happy" with a sigh and a nod of the head. They "cant complain" about life. Theyre "just surviving". Look at the stress on faces, look at how humans come onto online internet forums and get riled up over posts from people whos faces they have never and will never see. Look at how petty and how vexed and anxious on a day to day basis people get, even the ones with the better lives. What use is extending the lifespan even a hundred years. Given the way humans live their lives, consider "life to be a bitch", and generally suffer, increasing the lifespan and eradicating a disease is almost a disservice - theyre going to just suffer longer. All matter will end, all physical bodies and life will end. Even if you splice the universe scientifically to find the smallest particle in the universe that gives a full structural understanding of the universe, do you imagine for one second that this scientific knowledge will suddenly make people start living in bliss? Nothing wrong with technology and medical advancement, but what use is it when quality of life is horrible? Some people reply to me saying I make it out to be much worse than it is. That is a combination of two things, my bold use of jarring language, and because it actually is that bad. Only when you have experienced greater heights of existential awareness where these things start falling into place not conceptually but really, can you realize how horribly and unnecessarily even the most "happy" person is who lives in the world of regular happy/sad/pleasure/pain/relationships/job/accomplishments/acheivements suffer. Yeah theres alot of people who don't seem to "suffer" in the way that you would associate the word suffering with, but if you saw even some of what there is to see your paradigm will change completely. You will realize even the happiest man in the happiest family with a great, secure, well paying job, being productive, being socially useful, being a good samaritan, heck even being an acheiving scientist or athlete or celebrity, suffers on a day to day basis uneccesarily. You will see the distinct and clear possibility of living in an inner space where you do not get anxious even the smallest amount about anything, ever again. Only the experiential quality of life has the potential for reaching infinity. The quantity does not, and all things that can be understood quantitatively, even in part of it as a mechanism, have the potential for infinity. No matter how much science is known, no matter how many diseases are cured, death will come, the planet will one day be destroyed, as will the sun, the galaxy, the universe. Feeding mouths and increasing the quantity below poverty line through technology is useful and important, but the problem of too many mouths occurred by ignorance to inner science in the first place, and putting people over the poverty line does not ensure the highest happiness, just as the romp fed world is largely in suffering - to obvious and less obvious degrees. Technology is not even needed to be developed - if inner science suddenly spread to all beings, you will naturally start seeing a massive outflux of the insane amount of resources in cosmetics, entertainment, rudimentary luxury stuff going directly to feed mouths and better the world directly in causes that really matter even in the day to day matter of things - the consciousnesses will just change and the realization of what existence is and the pain being inflicted on those who are unfortunate will just be too great to continue in the same indulgent path.
You need to crack open a text book buddy, matter never ends for starters, it just turns into different kinds of matter. If this is where this argument is going, thanks but no thanks.
My simple guess is that he reveals more of himself through writing than most, and thus you see he wears his heart on his sleeve. The same could certainly be said of you.
Out of that entire post, you nitpick a statement that obviously wasnt talking physics, and find a scientific fault with it and say "if that is where this argument is going?" It is very obvious that this is not where the debate is going, that this has almost nothing to do with my points, and you taking it as so can only be interpreted as not wanting to really deal with my posts for whatever reason. Matter doesn't "end", all constructs that you think you are, that you may "add to world progress", all your achievements, will no longer be as they are, they will end. Theres not much for me to respond to here, youve evidently just left the debate and tried to end it with a little "your too stupid to talk with" without responding to my post but to just one off-hand scientifically incorrectly worded sentence somewhere in there which is far, far, far from the crux and core of the post.
that's my only guess, I can see my own posting style in him for sure, I think that is what makes the argument at a stand still. I don't agree with you about meditation, I have made myself clear from previous posts, it's just a ritual people do just like any other. I could go onto say how jogging leads to enlightenment all day but in the end it is jogging. If that is what you get out of it, ok, but stop trying to throw your predetermined notions onto me. You can say the sky is green all day, but at the end of the day and I look up and it is blue, I still question what you say. Would you not agree that enlightenment is not held down by one system of ritual? Not saying that I think you believe Meditation is the only way, but in the same since, it is what YOU make it the user, not a predetermined rule.
I gotten an entirely different experience out of meditation than he did, I don't think that one is possible. Different people;different paths.
We aren't talking about meditation. Try to focus on my explicit point (you critique him, but not yourself), not on one of yours. Different human beings; one existence, together.
Calling a dog a cat doesnt make it a cat. You can look at meditation as ritual, and thats what it becomes for most people, but thats not what it is. Its not something you do, its simply observing your consciousness. You can do it while jogging if you want to. When I say meditation is key I don't mean what the average internet savvy person thinks is meditation - any specific practice, I mean being aware of your consciousness, this can include "formal" meditation. If meditation becomes ritualistic, it loses its intent and usefulness. It is about clearing the consciousness and ingrained conditioning, not just about feeling peaceful. True meditation is not a ritual, just because that is the common western conception of it does not make it so. I'm not even arguing anything else, not even arguing with you, my point was that inner science is more important than outer, you kept disagreeing, so I kept posting my counterpoints. "Would you not agree that enlightenment is not held down by one system of ritual?". Of course, in fact it is not held down by any ritual - it cannot be arrived upon through ritual. It is in its essence full grounding in the freshness of the moment, how can any ritual do that? A ritual by its nature is a ritualistic thing. Why do you bring this point forward anyway since your argument was that progress and technology are more important than inner science? You still don't counter any of the points I made relevant to your initial argument, you just keep adding things, frivolous things that don't even begin to relate to my initial point. Seems like you are just arguing for the sake of argument. The only way your consciousness can become clear and unconditioned - fully - which is what enlightenment is - is through working on it, in some way. Whether it is being in an office job but being mindful and seeing the emptiness in everything, seeing the impermanance of existence while your sitting on the metro, whatever. Meditation simply means actively working on inner science, its not some method I am attempting to push on you. It is not a religion, not even any specific philosophy. That wasn't my argument, and it still isn't. All ive been talking about and re-enforcing with each subsequent post is that I feel inner science is far more important than outer sciences and progress and "worldly" existence. So far you have never countered most of my points with anything substantial, and now your not even dealing with it your taking the entire debate out of context, and adding new flavors to it without dealing with the older ones.
What makes you so sure about what you say? Why is understanding the subconscious so important if what you said earlier is still true about how human progress beyond necessity is not important(sorry if that is not what you said, that is what I got out of what you said). If the the world is going to end, why bother with the subconscious?
Again, you add words that mean something entirely different that I never said. I said nothing about the subconscious. If the world is going to end and we are going to die, why bother with inner science? Because when it comes down to it - we exist. One can philosophically and spiritually go into the depths of questioning why we exist and questioning the semantics of it but a few things are certain: - It exists. We exist - We will die - What do we look for, at the core, what is it that drives every moment of our existence? Wanting to be fulfilled, wanting to be "happy" whatever that means even if we do not even realize what it means, wanting to catch the thread of existential order and make sense of it all - to have an answer to life. We do exist. Through inner science our existence can come to a very resolved, peaceful, blissful place - to the extent of enlightenment where the nature of the universe becomes fully awakened to and a metamorphosis of consciousness occurs whereafter every moment is simply causeless, boundless, auspicious perfectness, and the experience of this is primordial, unconditioned, infinite bliss. No matter what we do we cannot change the way the universe is or answer some of the questions that we ask. We cannot change the fact that all material phenomenon is impermanent and that no matter how much we achieve we will die, to never exist anymore to even care for what we achieved or how the world feels about our achievements after we are gone. You will notice the "I want to be remembered" thing that people say about their lives is due to the fact that you can't fathom death as a normal person, even if you try to imagine yourself gone its you imagining it, you see yourself gone and people saying how you changed the world, it makes you feel useful only because you are imagining it while you are alive. Theres no you to care if you are remembered once you are dead. But we do exist, life is lived, we do incarnate, and while we are here, through inner science our experience can be intense bliss and non-conceptual knowingness of the nature of the universe that puts to rest all our restlessness and can make every moment of existence perfect, liberated, blissful, with all worries and qualms and resistance to existence being put to permanent rest. This is why one "bothers" with consciousness, and why inner science is far more important for each persons highest possible experience of existence than simply technological and scientific progress. Science and technology is not useless, it has alot neat and useful and helpful potentials, but what of these potentials when the core of the existential experience is not even a blemish upon what it can potentially be.