Hey all! I'm on my 5th overall grow. Just finished what I would call my 3rd successful grow. I've used GH Maxi's grow/bloom and Kool bloom, and a few additives here and there. I have a few ideas on how best to get organics in my grow without sacrificing much if any yield. I would like to hear ideas on how to best work the two together and also what nute schedule would work best with the products I already have on hand. I will be using Pro-mix HP 7 gal air pots (4" coir as my bottom layer) 400w hps flowering, 250 mh grow 31"x31" grow space scrog temps 80-86 f Nutrients I have Chemical: Maxi Grow/Bloom, Kool Bloom, Flora Nectar, Silica Blast, Floralicious Plus Organics: Pure Blend Original Grow/Bloom, Verde Fire Bloom, CalMag+, Flora Blend, Diamond Black, Diamond Nectar, Honey Organic ES, ZHO I don't really want to have to ph anything ever for the entire grow. I'm not sure if I should combine all organic and chemical nutes with every feeding or do a chemical feeding followed by a only organic feeding. What would give best results considering I don't want to PH ever, and I don't want Ph problems.
If you don't ph ever your going to have ph problems. That's the most retarded thing if ever heard. PH is very F**KING important. Read a book
If you go full 100% organics, Ph wont b an issue. Your living microherd will sort all of that out for you. However, if using bottled nutes, you will need to check Ph everyday all day. I do 100% organics and I don't even own a Ph meter. Those products you are using may say organic on the bottle but they are lying. They still contain many things that will kill of your living microorganisms that make organics work. With organics, its all or nothing. 40% organics doesn't work. Head over to the organic section, read the stickies.
The Maxi Bloom/Grow will PH itself in RO water. The Pro-mix will help keep PH in check also. Lets say first ever watering with the Maxi only, that will get the Ph of the medium in check to start. Then I could use the organics only next watering and continue to use the organics every watering until I see a deficiency or a PH issue. Then go back to Maxi only watering until run off to get PH of medium back in range. If I combine the organics and the Maxi together each time I water the Maxi will still try and get the PH in range just not sure how well it would work with considerable additives?
Experimenting can be fun for sure, but I doubt many have done what you are planning, so you probably wont get much guidance. I don't dabble with those chemicals so i cant give advice in that way, but I do know that if ignoring your ph meter is a goal, organics is the way to go. Yield doesn't nessessarily have to be affected either. If trying to use organic bottled nutes, then yield will probably be affected. But if you go full organics using Worm castings, manure, compost tea, kelp, alfalfa, rock dusts, ect, the possibilities are endless. There are some organic pros around here that get awesome yields. Can I ask your motivation in trying to do this 40% organic thing? I just don't see the point. Organics is organics, and nutes are nutes. It is not recommended to mix the two. You see, in organics what you are trying to do is create an environment for living microscopic creatures that feed your plant. Every chemical fertilizer or pesticide used will kill those living creatures. They are very fragile and sensitive. So if your planning on killing the creatures with maxi bloom/grow, why even spend money on the organic(ripoff) nutes? By the way organic nutes are a joke. Organics is achieved with things that the earth creates naturally. If it comes in a bottle, be very sceptical of being ripped off and know that it could definitely be done a lot cheaper.
I'm looking to stay with the chemical fertilizer as my base. I don't want to compromise yield, and I don't want to introduce bugs ect.. into my indoor grow. I honestly don't believe organics and chemicals can't or don't work together. What about products (I'm not using these) Flora Nova/GH, Pure Blend Pro/Botanicare, Pure Vida/Technaflora, they seem to be a combination of chemical and organics containing all the needed elements? All the things you listed are in the products I will be using. I have a Plant based compost tea(Flora Blend), and a animal based compost tea(Pure Blend Original), both containing sea kelp. I don't plan on using the non organic sweetener I have listed (Flora Nectar). I only want to use organic additives. I will be using the Silica Blast though; Floralicious Plus is mostly organic also. I don't have the time or space to compost or want the pathogens and bugs these things bring along. I hear you it can be done cheaper? I don't really care that a quart of whatever product cost 16-18$ a quart shipped to my front door. That seems cheap to me? I only want to use organic additives and will only use the ones priced cheaply, or what I consider cheap? If you have the knowledge could you please tell me how the products Pure Blend Original Grow/Bloom, Flora Blend, and Verde Fire Bloom are not organic? I plan to use these as my organic base.
hey man. please dont take offense to what i am saying, but..... you should either go 100% living organic, or 100% chemical. when talking about microorganisms....your talking about things that are only a few micrometers long. while they're only composed of roughly a couple billion molecules, you and i are composed of 1x10^563456356767563 molecules (<----not sure of that number exactly, but dont be surprised if its close). imagine if your skin absorbed everything that touched it & you took a bath in Technaflora. youde be dead. well, thats what happens with microorganisms. now, if you like the NPK ratios of certain "organic" labled nutrients, than that is fine. for example, i really liked the Humboldt Duece Duece (0-0-22) heres why you should just go chemical = i ammended my aesthetic plants in a window (with osmocote, and not weed plants) with neem seed meal, the meal became infected with botrytis. the chemical content of the soil killed those good microorganisms off, while the bad ones were able to resist. those products are not organic because certain fertilizers are extracted from organic materials with things like methylene, sodium hydroxide, hydrochloric acid, etc.......the end result would be "organic" but the methods they used to extract those organic compounds is far from what you are looking to achieve to grow organically. like how natural gas contradicts itself in the sense "natural" - fracking is one of the most pollutive things to do to our environment. -OSUB
Look on the net? Studies using both organics and chemicals are everywhere? Take a look at this, it seems to say they work together. www.academicjournals.org/jmpr/PDF/pdf2011/23Oct/Habibi et al.pdf
things in promix leach out over time, so it doesnt hold your pH very well after a decent amount of waterings...at least in a chemical grow where there is an absence of microorganisms. sweeteners dont do anything but add unnecessary things to your soil. based on what i have read, you should just head on over to the organic section of the forum. you will find it intriguing. every question you have will be answered with a little bit of reading. -OSUB
The plants only need to be in the Pro-Mix for 3 months it can hold it's PH that long. The entire idea of using organics in my mind is to use less chemical fertilizers, not stop using them. I want to keep the faster growth that comes with the chemicals; I also want the flavor and peace of mind that comes with growing natural. Farmers all over the world are using chemical and organic fertilizers together, so anyways?
You're right. For years farmers have been spreading manure in their fields and then spraying them with chemicals. It probably will work. What your doing is gaining the npk value from the organic fertilizers, but you will not be harboring any living organisms. And the living organisms is what makes organics so special. They fight the pathogens and bugs that you speak of and are a delivery system for the organic fertilizers. Running partial organics or not doing organics correctly is what causes people to believe that yield is lower or that pests and pathogens are guaranteed to be a problem. I run organics and I do not have bugs or pathogens. As far as flavor and peace of mind, your still using chemicals so you will still have the salt buildup that causes the harsher flavor, you will still have the need to flush out those salts at the end (100% organics doesn't have to flush) and still have possible harmful chems going into your body. Still going to have to be careful about ph all though it sounds like you may have that worked out. Im just trying to push my beliefs on you. I probably shouldn't. Also, thats an interesting little website that your contact info page linked me to. Thanks for that
There is only a couple of ways to use organic + chemical fertilizers that I can think of. The problem with using both simultaneously is that the chemicals are just going to kill the microbial life that the plants depend on. So you have to find a way to separate the two: First, you can use a weak organic soil mixture and then foilar feed chemicals, take care not to spray the soil. Secondly, you can separate nutes and feed in stages. Use an organic mixture for veg, and then when it comes to flower, start using chemical flower nutes. It will destroy all of the organic life in your soil rendering them useless, but that's what the chemicals are for I guess. This all sounds overly complicated to me. A plant grown in a good organic mix will perform just as well as a plant grown with synthetic fertilizers. There's no benefit of using both simultaneously and while I understand the perspective that you're trying to save on the expensive chemical fertilizers, you can't just mix both in the soil without effectively wasting the organic amendments. They MUST be separated in order to reap the benefits.
These things you guys keep saying just aren't whats happening in the real word. Farmers grow more with less these days, they wouldn't combine chemical and organic fertilizer if it in anyway reduced yields. They combine simply because it works from a cost and yield standpoint. Farms barely get by these days they won't be making mistakes like that. It may sound great to keep nutes separated in theory to you? I think the confusion may lie in that chemical fertilizer is believed to kill or slow life in the soil when over used. This soiless mix is free of all significant amounts of fertilizers from the start. I will be using less chemicals so the life in the soil will be fine. I won't be over fertilizing this pot of soil for year after year. I will only be keeping things in balance with the chemicals.
Yes those farmers get great yields, but the flavor of an organic vegetable is far better than one from those types of farms. I'm not saying that it cannot be done, I'm just saying that you will not get the flavor or the piece of mind that your looking for
I beg to differ. Here's a scholarly article that you may download. Statement on the page linked below: "Unrational and excessive application of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium chemical fertilizers causes pollution and decrease in soil fertility. All the negative effects aresummerised and the control measures are suggested in this paper." Negative Effects of Application Chemical Fertilizers on Farmland and the Control Measures.-- Here's another quote from another scholarly paper that disproves your theory that organic farmers use chemical fertilizers: "... Organic farmers do not apply chemical fertilizers and use only a very limited set of pesticides." Basic and Applied Ecology Volume 11, Issue 2, March 2010, Pages 97–105 Edit: Just realized my first link won't actually let you download the paper. I can get back to you on that.
I agree with Heather. Chems may indeed kill some microorganisms, but I don't believe that it sterilizes your soil. Reduce effectiveness maybe, but the chems are there to make up for that anyway. I use mostly organics, except for Tiger Bloom and my plants do just fine. I'm a week before harvest and runoff is still 6.2-6.4, never had to adjust anything, never touched my up/down, never had to flush, never really had to check PH at all... my plants are in my sig. I use... Ocean forest, blood/bonemeal, lime, and big bloom (organic tea with wormcastings, bat guano, etc). That carries them through veg, but if there's a deficiency in early flower I'll use ¼ strength veg nutes for the next 2-3 waterings, then Tiger Bloom and Big Bloom for the rest of flower. I might not be using organics to their fullest potential but that's not my goal, it's just a supplement to me. Some organic growers have pretty strong convictions as evidenced in this thread, with all due respect.
HighOnTheHill, seriously? I said that over fertilizing isn't going to be a problem with my grow. I will be using less chemicals? I definitely wont have "Irrational and excessive application of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium chemical fertilizers causes pollution and decrease in soil fertility." this is completely useless in the argument at this point in the thread? Also it clearly states that "causes pollution and decrease in soil fertility" how you turn that into completely kills all life in the soil is beyond me? I also never said organic farmers use chemicals? I said that basically all farms have used manure for years in the soil and still fertilized with chemicals and that method has worked countless times?
you need to ph you water man. Even if your using organics. Its just done backwards. You ph your water then add you nutes as the organics should balance everything out. Where as with chem you add your nutes then ph the water. Im you wanna do all this and get lazy with something so simple as ph your gunna have issues
Jimmyd, please elaborate more on the PH nute mixing cycle? Your saying PH my RO water then add chemicals then add organics (I'll be using from bottle)? The maxi's are PH buffered so how will that affect what you describe?