Organic ladies and gentlemen, or at least those who culture their own lacto strains, I have a question. Also, I hope this thread will encourage more people who have never tried it to have a go at it. I'll also try to keep this one short and to the point as well. From most of what I've read and watched so far during my journey down the organics highway,the "rule of thumb" is a 15 to 20:1 ratio of milk to rice wash. The last micro batch I made I went with only a 10:1, and everything happened exactly the same except for the curd cake on top was thinner. Is there any crucial reason to go with more milk, other than to have a more concentrated serum? Also another question for you organophiles- Let's say I've cultured my lactos, and now I have my fresh batch. Would adding lacto serum to an ACT when starting a new brew A: help to jumpstart the microherd? B: offset the balance of bacteria to fungi in the finished product, brewtime, etc. considered?
Lacto bacteria are anaerobic where as the bacteria you are going for in an ACT are aerobic, I cook my soil with the Lacto and let them breed until I hit them with an ACT. The Lacto becomes food for the stronger Aerobic bacteria, as least this is what I think haha I've done the same thing with the milk and no batched performed any differently. I have a couple articles posted in my Gardening Books FTW thread if your looking for references. GL! HaGGarD
^thanks for starting this thread poppy. I don't have much to add about diy lacto culturing, but I do have much to learn, so I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say.
[quote name='"poppybgood"']Organic ladies and gentlemen, or at least those who culture their own lacto strains, I have a question. Also, I hope this thread will encourage more people who have never tried it to have a go at it. I'll also try to keep this one short and to the point as well. From most of what I've read and watched so far during my journey down the organics highway,the "rule of thumb" is a 15 to 20:1 ratio of milk to rice wash. The last micro batch I made I went with only a 10:1, and everything happened exactly the same except for the curd cake on top was thinner. Is there any crucial reason to go with more milk, other than to have a more concentrated serum? Also another question for you organophiles- Let's say I've cultured my lactos, and now I have my fresh batch. Would adding lacto serum to an ACT when starting a new brew A: help to jumpstart the microherd? B: offset the balance of bacteria to fungi in the finished product, brewtime, etc. considered?[/quote] You add fresh rice wash directly to your milk? I think im getting confused. Could you explain your process please?
The lacto that I made for my bokashi was at 10:1 ratio also. Seems to have worked out just fine. As far as adding to a tea...I remember reading LD's take on it back in the "higher learning thread". He mentioned the same as what Haggard says. Instead of adding it to the tea, try adding to the soil where it will have time to break things down, then when you add the tea, the aerobics will consume the anaerobics...however, the lacto will have colinized enough by then and might be able to hide out long enough to keep doing thier thing for a while. So you'll have lacto breaking the soil down faster and then other bacteria chowing down on the lacto. Ive also added lacto to my worm bin as well as my compost tumbler.
Hey SOHA, I will definitely check that out. I was under the impression that lactos can live in aerobic and anaerobic conditions. Facultative anaerobic organism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I think my wording is misleading up top Sean. So far I've used the 3 day rule on the rice wash and that seems to be ample time to let it get funky.
I was actually talking with someone about this offline. This lady I know has a pretty indepth knowledge base on vegetable gardening and such. She was telling me that lacto b is in fact the type of bacteria that can survive in anaerobic conditions as well as aerobic. This makes sense because I was asking her why its possible for my serum to live in a mason jar that I have sealed...same thing with shipments of EM1... Theres so many strains of lactobacillus that it gets confusing. Hopefully we can shed some more light in this thread.
I hope someone will, because it's all Greek to me. I just follow the instructions LOL!! I've watched Gil Carandang and a few others, and copy what they do. Without the aid of an microscope this is all too crucial, since you are counting on your ACT to do it's job.
[quote name='"poppybgood"']I hope someone will, because it's all Greek to me. I just follow the instructions LOL!! I've watched Gil Carandang and a few others, and copy what they do. Without the aid of an microscope this is all too crucial, since you are counting on your ACT to do it's job.[/quote] What are the concerns/questions you have for this particular subject? Just an ACT? What do you use this for? Do you guys understand the overall principals of this "ingredient"? I'll answer some questions. But I may have to ask some questions to answer some questions... SD
My main question was if adding a little bit of the lacto serum when starting a new ACT would be beneficial, detrimental, or do nothing?
Well here are some benefits as I understand them in regard to this particular forum. I dont know these to be fact, Im just basicly regurgitating things that I have read and heard in conversation. -LAB can serve as a digester of different pathogens. So if given as a foliar spray, it can help stimulate stomata to open more fully which in turn would allow plants to have a better nutrient uptake through the leaves. -In the soil and compost, LAB will break down organic matter and also consume other bacteria which might be considered "bad bacteria" helping to facilitate the start of the soil food web. So far, I cannot prove this information to be fact. I have however seen LAB suppress odors in my vermicompost bin as well as my compost tumbler so I can see it is in fact effective in that aspect. I also currently have a bucket in my garage containing a rootball and some trimmed leaves. I tried to recycle this in the same way that I fermented the BSM extract. I filled the bucket with just enough water to cover the materials and I added 3 ounces of LAB along with 3 ounces of molasses. There was also some soil and vermicompost in the mix as well. Right now it smells like (excuse my language) DOG SHIT...I mean literally!!! It stinks bad! I have heard that breaking down and recycling plant matter can stink like heck so I am not sure if this stuff I have right now is doing the right thing or if something has gone really bad? I dont understand how it would be useful as a part of tea. It seems to me that it would just be out-competed (is that a word?) by other bacteria in the tea so I think it would be better used as a stand alone ingredient in soil cooking followed a few weeks later by a high bacteria tea. I cold be waaayyy off on this but thats the logic so far.
Yep, my last batch I made I used to re-innocualte some used soil. not trying to cut corners, but I figured if it would be beneficial to an ACT, then why not use it there as well? I really don't find it too labor intensive to culture a new batch of lactos ever so often(although this is only my 2nd one) . As soon as this culture is finished I am going to innoculate my new batch of hot soil with it. Other than vermicompost, no other innocualnts have been added. I am going to compare how much of a myco web forms on the soil compared the last soil batch. On a side note, when I added part of my 1st batch of lacto to an older hot soil I made back in the spring, I noticed within a few days the earthy fish buttcrack smell is completely gone to the point the soil really has no smell at all. To say it works as a natural deodorizer is an understatement.
Ok... I can see that there is a lot of confusion about "LAB" (i like this quick abbreviation btw ). That it's apparently been turned into this very mystical microbe that can to fantastic things, in which potentially can be true, dependent on what you consider "fantastic". I think a little perspective is due here for a second. LAB its self is used a lot in our general public. Like a lot! Way more than i think most anyone here can realize. Think of something sour and fermented. Pickles, sauerkraut, kimchee, miso, vinegar, a lot of these things are made by "wild ferments". Using wild indigenous microbes and usually those microbes are LAB. Every area has their own particular types / strains that have slight variations to different flavor types of different foods. Thats why a vinegar or sauerkraut will taste similar (tangy, sour) but different and unique from place to place or area to area. LAB is typically an anaerobic microbe but can survive in aerobic conditions as well (i honestly cannot remember the term but im sure you can follow). When they dominate the conditions of whatever we're talking about they'll "pickle" it, it'll turn sour and dramatically decrease the pH in the solution/soil/ferment whatever. Bokashi - "anaerobic composting" - em-1 + rice bran = $60 or you can make your own using your own lacto and coco coir. Same thing, just using the coco as the bran thats all. "natural farming" ferment or gil c FPE - plant materials (whatever you want) + lacto (because thats who you want to dominate the solution) + sugar (the sugar is a immediate food source to feed the LAB to get them to multiply in huge numbers to break down the plant materials), let sit for a week or three or three months, whatever lol. Strain. = FPE. Lacto to break down root ball - not really a big deal. Put it in a spray bottle spray the outside of the root ball. Let it sit. Wait a month or so or two or whatever, remix it and add a compost tea and voila recycled soil. A foliar application / PM cure - mainly fallacy. Think about really, if you can see the PM or mold or whatever its already too late. You've got a microscopic organism that has grown to the size that you can see it with the naked eye? Dude, thats messed up! To use it as a preventative is more likely. Using a compost tea as a foliar application to decrease pathogenic microbial infestation is a good idea, again if used proactively rather than reactively. The microbes take up "infection sites" and occupy them like rooms in a hotel. If all the rooms in a hotel (plant) are taken up by good people (microbes) then bad people cant come in and trash the place. Make sense? Now instead of using a tea (various beneficial microbes) you use LAB (another beneficial microbe). Plausible as a preventative but i think not for a "cure" The more i understand lacto the less i use it on my grow. I dont like sour, low pH, anaerobic conditions in my soil. So i dont add it to my soil. If your soil is completely dead and devoid of life then i guess it would be better than nothing. But to have that dominate my soil is kind of a scary thing to me. I'd much rather use a normal compost tea. LAB is also the primary "ingredient" in anything "probiotic". Like yogurts, and cheeses and all sorts of different foods. Its very good for you. And safe to consume. I add it to my dog food all the time. And they love it! Im sure im missing a bunch of things but im sure more questions will ensue and spark more answers i guess...
Two more potential resources http://naturalfarminghawaii.net/201...ical-natural-farming-seminar-in-hawaii-audio/ That is a two day seminar by gil carandang talking about various natural farming techniques. http://tribes.tribe.net/effectivemicro/thread/d6b8fd03-e2c7-4650-a658-51fdf4f013ad A small web site talking shortly about it. He also has a book that should be pretty easy to look up on amazon. Another good one to read would be "the art of fermentation" this talks more about the food aspect of LAB. Although a little off on "facts" this is still a very good read for anyone that grows anything more than just ganja and doesnt want to throw everything directly into the compost pile after harvest.
Excellent info SD, thanks for that! I for one am trying to learn more about LAB (I like the abbrev too ) and so this is very helpful. Much appreciated my friend.
[quote name='"InTheGarden"']Excellent info SD, thanks for that! I for one am trying to learn more about LAB (I like the abbrev too ) and so this is very helpful. Much appreciated my friend. [/quote] Aloha sistren! Im glad that any of that made any sense at all lol. SD
I'm aware "LAB"(BTW, I like that abbreviation)is used in many things such as septic tank treatment, compost starter, cheese and yogurt making, etc. But what lies at the heart of my initial post and question is would adding a "booster" of it, if you will, to a batch of ACT would be beneficial in any way. I really don't think it would make an already active, but used soil go anaerobic, especially if the soil was able to breathe. The only way to really tell what happens on a microbial level would be to have a microscope and a control to be able to observe what happens. Furthermore, if this was the case, then it certainly wouldn't be used as an innoculant in all of the "Tone" products, nor would it be sold as a compost starter. The last thing any composter would want is to turn their compost into a sour mess, and I can already tell you that the soil I've treated with it has absolutely no anaerobic qualities to it.
[quote name='"poppybgood"']I'm aware "LAB"(BTW, I like that abbreviation)is used in many things such as septic tank treatment, compost starter, cheese and yogurt making, etc. But what lies at the heart of my initial post and question is would adding a "booster" of it, if you will, to a batch of ACT would be beneficial in any way. I really don't think it would make an already active, but used soil go anaerobic, especially if the soil was able to breathe. The only way to really tell what happens on a microbial level would be to have a microscope and a control to be able to observe what happens. Furthermore, if this was the case, then it certainly wouldn't be used as an innoculant in all of the "Tone" products, nor would it be sold as a compost starter. The last thing any composter would want is to turn their compost into a sour mess, and I can already tell you that the soil I've treated with it has absolutely no anaerobic qualities to it.[/quote] Used in a compost tea. It wouldnt make it any more beneficial than any properly brewed compost tea, No. A real way to show if LAB would be beneficial? Take this into consideration. Lets take your base soil mix: 1 part peat or coco whatever, 1 part aeration rock, and one part humus source. But lets change the humus source to anaerobic bokashi in one mix and use a standard EWC or normal compost in the other. When you use the "recommended" amounts of bokashi compost or bokashi bran in your soil it is advised to till it into your soil and let it sit for a month or so. Where as when you use a standard compost or EWC i can plant directly with not a care in the world. Using small amounts of lacto or em1 in your soil is not an issue at all. But keep adding that to it and let it dominate the soil and see what happens. I can understand that this could be looked at as "extreme" but is it extreme to top dress with ewc? Or create an ewc slurry? Now im not saying that i dont like LAB or that i dont use it. Im just saying to respect it. And understand what it naturally does. I hope i dont come across as rude. Im just trying to help is all.
poppy, I'm nowhere close to being an expert when it comes to LAB, so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me that, while you certainly could add the LAB to your ACT, it wouldn't really be of much benefit. The whole point of the ACT is to culture aerobic microbes, and I just don't see how adding LAB would further that goal. The LAB would probably just end up as food for the aerobic microbes, and to that end you could just add a little molasses and save your LAB for other applications. edit: I just did some googling and came up with this email from Dr. Ingham where she talks about lactobacilli, aerobic microbes, mildew, pathogens, etc.. here is the website: Re: Lactobacilli To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU Subject: Re: Lactobacilli From: Elaine Ingham <Soilfoodweb@AOL.COM> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:35:26 -0400 Comments: cc: jpy@bennettvalleyvineyards.com Reply-to: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU> Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU> In response to Peter's question on lactobacilli - Several things have to be understood about the conditions that allow competitive exclusion by the three groups under consideration here. The three groups being – 1. lactobacilli, 2. E. coli and humans pathogens, and 3. mildews. 1. Lactobacilli, and 2. E. coli and the human pathogens we worry about in compost are facultative anaerobes. That means they can grow aerobically, and in reduced oxygen conditions (i.e., anaerobic, but not severely anaerobic conditions). They aren't good at competing with true aerobes however. When oxygen begins to drop, lactobacilli, E. coli and human pathogens come into their competitive superiority at certain low oxygen and reduced oxygen conditions. They produce different enzymes in reduced oxygen conditions then in aerobic conditions and now the human pathogens and lactobacilli win in competition with aerobes for food. To determine whether the human pathogens and E. coli, or the lactobacilli will win in competition with each other, you have to look at what foods are present, and whose enzymes are better at grabbing those foods. The lactobacilli and other yogurt bacteria are better than E. coli at taking up and using milk protein and milk sugar (lactose). Even if the lactobacilli and related bacteria are low in number to begin, they will soon grow and produce overwhelmingly high numbers, and they will beat any other organism for the foods of which milk is comprised. Lactobacillus species are used to stabilize milk and milk products, and give them longer shelf life. But on leaf surfaces, the story is different. First, leaf surfaces are not generally all that anaerobic, so the lactobacilli are not highly competitive in these environments. Leaves do not produce notable amounts of milk proteins or sugars, so the foods that lactobacilli are best at grabbing from everyone else and preventing anyone else from growing are not present. Mildew fungi are better at using exudates from leaf surfaces than lactobacillus. If the leaf or fruit surfaces lack a normal set of bacteria and fungi, then mildew has an open field of infection without any competition. If lactobacilli grow rapidly, they use up oxygen and produce organic acids, which result in the pH conditions that mildew fungi like. Mildew fungi tolerate reduced oxygen conditions just fine. When mildew is present, and lactobacilli do not have the ability to edge out the mildews, the human pathogens may also not be prevented from growing. That is a situation that needs study. In the little bit of work we did with the SARE grant last year where we established the conditions to allow lactobacillus to grow in the compost teas, there was no suppression of mildew, and E. coli was a problem. Probably no surprise, once you think all these things through. If there was food enough for lactobacilli to grow and therefore use up oxygen, (i.e., the tea brew therefore dropped into the anaerobic range), then E. coli was free to grow too. Mildew did just fine, because the reduced oxygen in the tea kept the competitor fungi and bacteria from growing and anaerobic bacterial growth took out the aerobic fungi. If you put milk on plants, then, possibly a different story would occur with respect to suppression of mildew by lactobacillus. But how much milk would be needed to set up the conditions to let the lactobacillus control things? Spreading milk over acres of land is not cheap. We perhaps have better things to do with milk. What about putting milk in compost tea? The concentration of milk has to be so high that it is not economically feasible. But what if you are a dairy farm with waste or spoiled milk? Then maybe it would be reasonable. But we'd have to work out how much milk, and what the inoculum of lactobacilli would need to be...... ------------- And I can just hear certain people after they read this -"Elaine's just trying to get more people to test with her lab!" But we can't suggest that things work before we have DATA that shows they work. I don't mean to suggest that Peter was saying that, but I know people selling machines without any data to show their machines make decent compost tea. They critisize me for requiring data. And I get blasted from the other side because they say there isn't ten years of PUBLISHED data. Sigh. Someone is always going to critisize, right? Let's just do our best to get the ten years of data. Figure out when tea works, and why it doesn't work when it doesn't work. I really need to know both kinds of examples, but I can't figure out the reason if you don't give me information to understand the situation. I've taken on the job to figure out why compost teas work, and what went wrong when someone didn't get compost tea to work the way they thought it should. And guess what? It can be a hair-pulling experience to get an agronomist to try to understand microbiology! For example, a not-so-recent University study I heard about where they put compost tea on a fumigated field weeks before planting anything (what did they think the organisms were living on? How long can the soluble nutrients from the tea hold the tea organisms in an active condition?). Is it so amazing that the compost tea treatment had no effect on plant growth or disease suppression? What were the weather conditions when they put the tea on? And they tout this as proof that compost tea doesn't work! Snort. Please folks, when someone says compost tea doesn't work, take a close look at the way the “research†was done. It isn't that hard to figure these things out. Think of the tea organisms just like your children. Do nothing to tea that you would not allow to happen to your children. Ok, spinning them around in a tea brewer, and spraying them through the sprayer are exceptions, but I think you get my point? Elaine Ingham ------------------------ Peter's message - Elaine (and everyone else), Absolutely fascinating discussion about bateria versus fungi. You struck a chord on a topic I've been following lately. If you add lactobacilli (yogurt) to a compost tea, would it help it suppress powdery mildew? Is lactobacilli what makes milk effective against powdery mildew? Peter