Please, don't get me wrong JesusC I'm not implying that at all, I'm just arguing my point of view as everyone else, It's all about perspective here.
There is no evidence to suggest that there is an "omnipotent and omniscient originator of our universe" so thus, believing in such, is not logical. Even if you consider it to be logical, it is not.
It isn't... It's more of a personal decision to view it how you want when we have no proof. Which is why I don't try to mock others for believing either way. I believe both sides are valid until one side is proven. That's why I credit both sides and use them in my philosophy. EDIT- so literal LT, misnomers can really be a pain in the ass in debate... Damn language barrier LOL Replace logical with valid and it's all good. LOL
Ha I knew it was only a matter of time before someone pointed that out...right after I posted that comment I took it back. I admit I was wrong there, it was bound to happen sometime I guess. Obviously, you cant prove god does or doesnt exist....at least not at this point. I guess what I meant to say was that you can use simple ideas and concepts as a way of backing up what you believe. When it comes to the belief in the existence or non-existence of god, your reasoning doesnt always have to be complex or "out there"....sometimes it can be quite simple.
I'm not arguing that, and anyway what exactly would be considered evidence of those characteristics anyway? And he simply asked for my reasoning...like I said "I consider it to be logical".
We're just taking the argument bare naked and as presumed truth. We have to set aside any apeal to preconceived anti-religious or atheistic beliefs and just take the argument piece by piece - headfirst to see diferrent angles of the mystery of God.
I am God. Discuss that seriously and try to understand my motives for putting you all through the hell you all go through day after day.
pale ass French Canadian chicks with perky nipples are my God and boy do they provide one hellova service by just existing
You are neither immortal, omnipotent or omniscient therefore you cannot be God. Hell? LT you use to be Religious were you not? I'm sorry If you personally felt as If your Religious beliefs were negatively affecting your life, If that was the case you made the right decision in converting. But I in no way feel like my beliefs are a weight on my shoulders nor do I look to my Religion for comfort, I'm already comfortable. Or is it?
This is an irrelevant statement in this discussion, we are discussing the Complexity of God's nature, not his motives - presuposing He already exists. You have to come out of your bruised toe and take the possibity of his existance as truth, regardless of what you may or may not believe, this is the basis of this argument. This... was just well put. simple. We are looking at God as a supremely Complex being, Immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent - not what you (Liquid) have read out of a new testament scripture concerning the burning of sinners... That is a whole nother discussion.
Perhaps it wasn't LT? It could have been God... j/k I do believe there is a part of us that is all of those things, our ego just covers it up somehow. It could be for a good reason or it could be a sickness that God caught and has no control over reality anymore and is trying to get it back. The true complexity of God is that He is infinitely complex, there isn't one thing you can claim about Him that He can't change instantly... It's just insane the true depth of possibilty in the universe- and we haven't even seen it all yet! Do you think discussing these things is attempting to carve a graven image of God that can have no one image? Or is it showing us an ever-changing picture that is not carved out of stone but more like a reflection in a pool of water? I would like to think we are trying to represent something of infinite complexity with something of infinite complexity... But how can we, of finite complexity, accomplish that??? Can we paint a picture that cannot be painted? How can we even imagine God if we don't have some sort of idea of what He is? It's just so insane... I talk to this side of myself that I know is different than me on some level. It's just so strange sometimes, like I know there is something invisable yet still can't see it (I have before but it was a rare experience)- and the only one's who understand feel the same way... Is no representation of God the true representation because of our limitations? Is the answer really that there is none??? It's so mixed up that I know I have to be talking about something I can't understand right now... So frustrating yet interesting The more you uncover the more gets covered up... All we have to do is remember what is revealed better I guess... Maybe some more evolution is necessary so we can use enough brainpower to reveal more to us than is being covered up! I think that's what allowed the coverup to happen in the first place- evolution. Whatever was a better adaptation for the situation developed, God can become the universe and then the universe can become God... So the very thing that brought us here will bring us back if that's true! It's all a giant cycle. As complex as it is it can be simple... Infinitely complex, it's just mind blowing!
Simplicity, is the other side of the argument for complexity, if you were not so sensitive you would have been able to see that this was just a side note of postulations- not an attack on your statments, Its about the thought that perhaps we do have an simple original creator, a deity like an energy, or a silent pulsing radiating cloud gas of infinite statistical random outcomes, This system which could be all life's birth and cradle - is the possible invisible universal 'source' , and could be the true 'cause' of all organtic and conscious life we have in existance, connecting every human being and animal and all organinc life into one cog, in some supernatural way to itself, recycling the energies of the universe, we are part of it, this was my definition of a Simple God. its easier to accept god as a 'simple' source with no personal inteligence compared to the complexity of a Human-like attribute to God. What are the chances that HE of all should have been God...? God of all existence with no competitors around him? if so then it would seem that there is nothing much higher that he. the Grand creator or original step before , does he ever ask himself 'why am I concious?' 'why am i the creator' 'what is my origin' what is my purpose here', 'How is it that i just allways was? with no begining? no end? what am i? Best definition to my meaning of the word: 1. ... "a thing that acts, happens, or exists in such a way that some specific thing happens as a result; the producer of an effect: You have been the cause of much anxiety. What was the cause of the accident?" I was supposing that God himself could just be a simple order, not a personal entity but a system of 'cause', the initial touch and thereafter nothing more to the riveting and rolling wheel of evolution, remember the definition of cause... "producer of an effect... ?" ie. "a bullet was the cause of the war" or "the match was the cause of the explosion" etc. looking at God if he were a simple mechanism of "cause" 'prime cause' for the creation of the universe.. omething- one or the other- had to exist from infinity. If there is no God to create the universe, then all the matter and energy in the universe had to have existed forever. SOMETHING had to exist forever. Maybe it was just gases that were around in the beginning. Maybe all there was in the very beginning was hot swirling gases that gave rise to the Big Bang and thus the creation of the Universe. But how could these gases even exist? How could they have come about on their own? prior to the big bang? As unlikely as this seems, it seems a chance of possibility that there really is some superior being or intelligence that has been around forever... If then it is true that SOMETHING had to exist forever, then isnt it more likely that it could be some kind of Intelligence - which does not depend on anyone else for its complexity and existence but itself alone. Sof How could any gas have existed forever? Everything is created by something or at least some process, What sound theories are there for the seemingly impossible chance of the Creation of God? None. You honestly do not see any logic in it? Right. If there is any possibly of his unexplainable existance, then what was 'life' before the creation of our universe? It seems it is not even intellectually possible to fully comprehend and fathom the unexplainable existance of a being who just Is! No evolution, no creator, no cradle of Origin, nothing. Always was, always is, always will be... The master, of time and Eternity, he is an extremely complex being. Postulations about eternity and infinity are very fruitless. so this seems to be getting us nowhere. Why not? Proof, Logic, Reason. I'll rather know what i worship than worship something i know could possibly not exist as there is absolutely no evidence- to suggest any particle of its existance except- for a small chance that it was the prime cause of the evolution of the universe, of which- I highly doubt, as it seems nature is self sufficient, so where do we squeeze God in? Jesus said "My father is always working..." doing what may ask? We dont see him in nature , we know nature takes care of itself. We dont see him in humanity - humanity is fucked up on its own already. We dont see him in creation - evolution has already answered this question. We only seem to see god in 1 point in history, if you want to go that far to believe in him,so much for his boasting, we seem to only see him as the cause, perhaps he kickstarted the bigbang and events which tumbled and evolved to what they are today. If the theories are correct in saying there was no time or matter before the big bang, then its very hard to get to the cause of it all,Its extremely hard, near to impossible to comprehend "nothinginess" or perhaps the state before god created the universe. If we could bring ourselves to believe that some substance could have Always existed or could have given birth to itself or even gradually evolved on its own then we would be complacent, but to say that 'I am', and have always been, is just blantantly screaming for an explaination. If the theories are correct in saying there was no time or matter before the big bang, then its very hard to get to the cause of it all,Its extremely hard, near to impossible to comprehend "nothinginess" or perhaps the state before god created the universe. as witness in physics Inside of our physical world of order, we have noted that something has to come from something in order for it to 'be'. If we could bring ourselves to believe that some substance could have ALWAYS existed or could have given birth to itself or even gradually evolved on its own then we would be complacent, but to say that 'I am', and have always been, is just blantantly screaming for an explaination. Your argument seems to be soley based upon faith, let us both conclude then that God is unfathomable- there then seems to be no need for any further argument. I like your take on this Mr.GoodStuff.
i didnt make it through every post but.. 1) humans arent capable of knowing or figuring out how someone so complex as God came to be. to paraphrase dynasty's thought "it does what it does because it does" would sum up the idea on God. He is because he is. if you look in the bible he refers to himself as I AM aswell as others do. He just is. do you think a finite mind is capable of understanding the infinite? if you do id say there lies your first problem. there are somethings that we as humans arent capable of learning.thats just how it is. 2) something being extremely complex means its most likely fictitious....doesnt make any sense at all so we dont have to address that.. 3)to the ones saying we started somewhere ..from something simple and evolved...thats darwinistic and has no good logic...darwin didnt even swallow that bull.. if we all started from one simple beginning then tell me why humans evolved as drastically as we did? why cant wombats make automobiles? they came from the same simple beginning as everything else right? and if we came from the same source then that would imply that we also resided in the same physical place which means there were no advantages from the git go.no one organism had the leg up on the next because they were the same. so why dont spider monkeys fly their own aircrafts? 4) God is in a timeless space. there are no yesterdays or tomorrows. He created time the same as He created the earth. How many millenia do you think He sat around before he created earth,time,humans etc? NONE! He doesnt reside in a space where time is the measurement of life! do you understand that? I dont, but that doesnt mean it is or is not true just because we dont have a cut and dry answer. thats just the way it is. as you said "..near or impossible to comprehend." only without the near... if anything you should find comfort in knowing that you werent designed to know everything.that something greater than you knows the things that you cant. and if you were truly atheist (and obviously you are because you are trying to bunk God's existence..not quite agnostic) you wouldnt even ask these questions or propose these extremely thin theories of yours because according to you whether one believes or not we all share the same end. so tell me why a true atheist would try to discourage a christian/buddhist/muslim etc.? does it serve a purpose? edit: i would strongly recommend a book titled: MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis. without any bias he explains these very questions you ask. his answers come from that of a scientific view rather than through the eye of a christian. (its not a book for everyone. it takes a healthy brain to digest what he discusses. for the logical mind this is the book to read.)
Prove it! I could not see the damage or the horrors through its blinding influence. Once I shed the illogic I clung to as logic, I easily grasped the issues and problems that afflict the religious, religions, and the world because of them.
You really rock weedseed!ya fucking do. God exists because - he said so... cool man lets all just close this argument. This just demonstrates your level of ignorance of world religions in modern society, your argument is 'because God stated it in "his word" then its true' we need to take him a contemplation model, a being and a lifeForm not just a divine creator... The bible says that he is the 'I AM', but so do many other religions in our world today, which one can we pick and choose and say this is the creator... and how do we know if the only evidence we have of him is written in a book, that is why i strickly cannot base an argument on someone' s "faith" convictions. How many God's have claimed supremecay over our lives in our cultures and generations before us? the bible is a well written screenplay. and that is all i see it as... Give me 1 thing humans arent capable of learning... we have proved ourselves time and time again... that we can learn anything with a given set of time! So how do you suppose these animals came about? did god manually mould and shape them what they are today? that is just a childish thought man... we see natural selection at work right now today... after the flood of noah - how did all these diversified animals we see today come about? God doe'nst Create anything, he does'nt have to. And that is why we seek him, why has he hidden himself and made to run like headless chickens after him to find meaning? I am not truly athiest, neither am i truly christian, I am truly nothing, I only seek answers, If i am unable to get an answer other than "cause he said so" i walk away... I have already read this book the first time it was recommended.. but I will give you a better - read Deepack Chopra, then we can talk...
It's not about sensitivity at all, you're attempting to use simple logic to explain concepts we in no way can currently fathom. And that in no way makes sense. Sure it's easier, but it's not rational. Usually that's how it works. These types of questions are pointless...God is omnipotent, We cannot near fathom on a level to which God excogitates. I agree with you here Exactly. theories in no way can or even attempt to explain that, only Religion provides a perceptive cognition concerning similar questions. If everything was likely, there would be no mysterious elements to life and it would be a lot more dull than it already can be. Can you be completely confident in saying that there is absolutely none? This is basically my whole point. You honestly do not see any logic in it? [/QUOTE] There can't be too much, considering what exactly do we really know about creation? They're completely fruitless and accomplish basically nothing, I totally agree dude. Well that is doubt, and if is the case for you then I agree, and I ask you what exactly would be considered evidence of God? I may sometimes doubt whether or not Jesus was the true son of God. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that an omnipotent being, that harboured life as we know it, is existent. The universe if farrrrr to vast, intricate and pulchritudinous to have sprawled from a bunch of shit swirling around and combining quickly...what a bunch of bullshit, and a pathetic excuse of an explanation. If the Big Bang was a fraction of a single percentage off It most likely would have never formed in the massive and complicated way it did, and the universe would have ultimately collapsed upon itself. So therefore I feel that only something perfect could have formed the Big Bang and that essence is what we know as God. Yes and that's all you pretty much have is doubt. Most Athiests' doubt of a God existing in this world with all the deaths and negativity's happening to good people overwhelms their doubt of the probability of an actual God existing. The problem with Athiests isn't whether a God exists in general, it's more that a God being omnipotent allows the things that happen to enfold as they do. Who knows? the universe is a big place... You see what you look for. I agree Why? and how could we begin to relate when we live on this Earth around a mere 70 yrs and have never encountered something that has always been present? It's not solely based on faith, If any rebuttal was solely based on faith it wouldn't be much of an argument. Prove it![/QUOTE] If you were omniscient you wouldn't be in this forum asking questions and you'd know that you cant convince me with your argument. And when you die that will be more than the proof needed to suggest you aren't immortal As a whole, many things...such as peace, unselfishness, income taxes, and our own ignorance. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~ Einstein