Okay ive been reading what alot of ya'll had said about how life is just a dream in the end..all that ect ect. Okay let me put something in ya'll head. I know their is a god. Because if you really think deeply about it we CANT be just up and appeared out of nowhere. Something made this earth the stars everything. We as humans have enough brains and knowledge to know this. And I remember almost 5 years ago when 9/11 happend they showed a picture of a devil and a demon in the cloud of smoke...it was video too no photoshopped picture. A guy just captured it on his camcorder. And ive always been told that theirs evil forces on this earth that doesn't reveal itself unless it want to be revealed and i kind of feel this is true. Because i dont know if im blessed with a gift but I can feel spiritual present. I had a lil cousin that died bout 6 or 7 years ago and when i went into the hospital room with my auntie i felt death in the air. It was almost like the death angel was next to me its real hard to explain because only i can really know. So if theirs a devil then of course theirs a god. God give you free will..alot of people lose faith in god because of stuff that goes on in the world...your friend got killed..family..all the wars. Us humans brought this upon ourselves. We were suppose to be not exsiting years years years ago but jesus saved us he died for us. At the end of the day you will never know untill you die..but if their is a god and you're a athiest..its kind of too late. You got to find faith and believe he'll show you the way like he showed me. I know theirs a god because when i was in the hospital about to die which i should have died i remember having crazy dreams it was almost like i was in the other world..I can't remember these dreams now because the doctors gave me medicane to not remember the pain i was in cuz i was in so much pain and it erased alot of the stuff that happend but some stuff can't be forgotten. Even if life is just a dream in the end we're very very real..whats fake about this world we're in. the fact that we're dreaming means we're exsiting somewhere wether its in another world or what we're still alive and their still a creator we didn't come out the sky.
No one is really suggesting we did. Also, "thinking deeply" on something does not mean much of anything. If you know there is a god and wish to prove that to someone else, go find some evidence. Good luck! So, because you see a pattern in a cloud of smoke that looks like a devil and a demon, that proves that there are invisible evil forces at work to destroy all of humanity? Thank "god" they are doing such a bad job, and have always done so, throughout history. A lot of people "feel death", animals do it too, some of them can even predict with great regularity when someone is going to die. Hmm... Instinct or invisible demons? I'm going to go with instinct. Who proved there was a devil? The existence of a devil would not prove the existence of a god at any rate, perhaps it does, perhaps the devil is the god? If you believe the Bible, God encouraged many destructive acts, take a look at the OT if you do not believe me. Though yes, we are at fault for the wars, the death, and the destruction that we rain down upon this planet on a daily basis. We, however, are also responsible for all the good things that we do in this world. No where in the Bible does it mention that God was going to wipe out the human race but instead decided to send Jesus to die for our sins. Quite possibly not even then, you could just die and that is the end. Why? If there is a god I doubt it would be the God of Abraham, I doubt an atheist would have much to fear. So, in other words, you know for sure there is a god because you had a dream and western medicine saved you from dying? I have had many dreams, if I were to believe every dream I had that seemed real I would be believing I could fly, get shot and not die, fall from a great height without needing to worry, oh, and I would be able to will things into existence. Since I cannot do those things, I will conclude that the dreams I have that seem real, are not. If life is just a dream, then we are a dream. If that dream is reality, then sure, we are real... What happens when the dreamer awakens, though?
Your arguments are illogical on so many levels beginning to immediately address them all simultaneously would give me a headache. Pretty much all your describing to prove God (crazy dreams, etc.) are all chemical occurrences. Nothing "other worldly" about it. Someone get rasta or zylark in here. EDIT: reading the thread title, if anything, YOU'RE the one who thinks we aren't real.
nice post budsmoker. though, i disagree about it being too late for people who dont believe in God. He is patient beyond comprehension.
Liquid did a very good job breaking down the arguments made by budsmoker. To be perfectly honest, I had to read through the OP twice just to get the gist of it. Here is a tip: Paragraphs. It takes two simple taps on the return key, and makes everything very much more readable. Since Liquid did the point to point I'll just go general --- Know there is a god? If I'm not mistaken, god belief is a faith, not knowledge. Want to claim knowledge, provide evidence. Believe what you want, but until you can prove it, do not claim it true. What the OP really says, is the good old Pascals wager, nothing else. Sure it is clouded and confused, but then again, most believers concept of reality is. It is nothing but a more or less word for word repetition of indoctrinated religious concepts. I read the post not so much as asking questions or clearing up matters of faith, but the age old practice of repeating what one is told and find solace in sharing with those that believe in similar concepts. As Chevelle pretty much by his reply confirms. Since Budsmoker haven't thought critically, I'll just go ahead and ask a couple of questions from claims made in the OP: - Have you ever tried finding rational answers to your experiences? Like the unfortunate episode with your cousin? Could it be possible you do not like hospitals? That you knew your cousins condition was serious? Maybe not told so explicitly, but picked up through non-verbal give-aways from other in the family better in the know? You seem rather young in your expression (assumption), so I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of your family held back from you that your cousin might very well die, but was not upfront with it. Body language is easily picked up, and that might be what you did. Besides, hospitals are gloomy places. When you yourself was in hospital, all drugged up on opiates, ever consider those drugs might make you rather imaginative? - You're obviously not all that versed in formal logic, so I'll just go for the traditional breakdown of Pascals wager. Ever consider that your god is false? There is a lot of gods and religions you know, and they are all more or less contradictory. If there really is a god, how do you know you worship the right one? And no, it says so in the bible is not a good answer. Circular arguments never is. And why would that god care, as long as you do good with your life and others? Do you really believe in a vindictive petty god, that behaves more as a seriously jealus (and violent I might add) husband, than as a caring loving entity that want us all good, not just those that suck up? Have you even thought through the dogmas that the religion you are indoctrinated into follows?
i'm one of those silly people who like proof of things before i believe them. i know this has been touched on already but.... just saying there has to be a god because everything didnt just appear out of nowhere does not make it true..... but technically if there was a god, wouldn't everything just appear when he/she/it decided to make it?? people see the virgin mary in corn flakes too... doesn't mean anything. seeing "apparitions" in smoke or any "other worldly" sights in everyday objects only proves that the human brain is a highly evolved organ that can determine what it wants. basically its a ink blot test. just a question....... what is astophysics then?? a pointless hobby?? i feel bad for individuals like you. not that u believe in a higher power, but u believe in a higher power without evidence or without rational reasoning. just because u felt death in the air does not verify the existance, or lack there of, of a god. it just means your brain is making u feel a certain way, triggered by certain feelings. i've said a thousand times that i dont doubt the good that having faith in a higher power does for some people. however, i do believe that certain aspects of certain religions are a sign of their times. obviously the authors of the bible didnt have access to anything close to the technology we have today. its actually interesting to read how people back then viewed their world. without the technology to even begin to understand anomolies in the world, they rationalized with what they knew. a comet flies over head... its a god. anything unexplainable is attributed to a god. but as time went on, as it tends to do, ideas and thoughts get changed and the general way of thinking changed to a more scientific/intellectual approach. instead of chalking strange/unknown things up to god.... they tried to figure it out. supposedly, god made the earth the center of the universe..... that was proved wrong through simple science and new technologies that arose from that new way of thinking. having said that, jesus was one of those people who "thought outside the box" and refused to believe the status quo (spelling). when it was found that the sun, and not the earth, was the center of our solar system it was brushed off as harassy. very similar to how jesus preached one god in a time when the worlds super power forced individuals to believe in the roman gods. jesus was not devine. he was a human. he was nothing more than proof of human evolution and a person with a radical way of thinking. jesus didn't die specifically for anyone.... his death was a sign of the times. anyone preaching against the roman empire at the time was punished. some bum that lived on the streets of rome could have preached 2 gods...a dog and a cat.... he might have been whacked too. not because it was part of an invisible omnipitent beings grand scheme. i personally believe that the cross is a gruesome peice of symbolism. crucifiction was a popular way of execution back then... a quite unhumane and fucked up way of execution. why would an entire religion want to symbolize a horrid form of death just because jesus died that way?? even though the spear to his side is what ultimately killed him. zylark is always a voice of reason..... how do u know youre not worshiping the wrong god?? basically... by saying god is real and christianity is the "correct" religion you are sayin everyone else in the world who doesnt have the same views as you are wrong and are going to YOUR hell?? why, if they believe in something totally or barely different would the go to YOUR hell. why is your hell the almighty negative afterlife? humans have been around for however many tens of hundreds of thousands of years and did just fine. christianity has only been around for less than 2000 years. i think its kind of screwed up to come in thousands of years after every human's ancestors succesfully poplutated the world and say that only a certain group of people are living their lives "correctly". then to go and say some dude just up and put these humans there............ millions of years AFTER evolution began. and there is scientific proof of evolution.... it is no longer (and should no longer be debated) a theory... it is science fact. one very interesting aspect of evolution i thought i'd add has to do with bats and moths. i saw this on some show..... we all know bats are basically blind. and not so known, moths are pretty much deaf... bats use a sort of echo-location to track thier food, moths. for millions of years, nocturnal bats have been flying around, bouncing sound waves off everything and registering its surroundings. and... for millions of years, moths have been getting eaten by bats. well...... over time, a species of moth has evolved a primitive ear that can pick up either the slightest sound, or changes in pressure as a bat approaches. instead of having no chance at all, this species of moth has evolved so well that it hears the bat at makes a sharp turn nanoseconds before its about to get eaten and nose dives to the ground. now i dont see how everything could have been created in the last 10,000 years or whatever the bible says. the bible says the earth/universe is a certain age because at the time the STORY was written, they had no way of determining the true age of things. as i've been saying.... we now have the technology to figure out the ages of fossils that are tens of millions of years old. carbon is one of the bulding blocks of life and is present in damn near everything. carbon uniformly dissipates over the years... so testing the amount of carbon in a subject can give an accurate idea of that subjects age. obviously this technology wasnt available to those who lived way back when. but they have to have come across atleast ONE dinosaur bone while digging and building the massive structures of the ancient world, right?? this post got a little ramble-y. how can people honestly believe that god made adam in his image and created eve with adams rib?? i've asked that question to many believers and quite a few said that part of the bible is unbelieveable. i dont think its right for some people to believe some parts of the bible and not others. imo.... the bible is the best story ever written. but thats what it is.... a story. a story roughly based on fact and largely based on fiction. the facts are that most of the people in the bible did exist and were real people. but again, it was a sign of the times. the best historian from that time was a guy named josephus... and there is a lot of questions revolving around his work. how can we truely know the truth if those times were poorly recorded and the author of the bible isn't even known?? who knows. what i know is that we evolved from the earliest life forms ever. our true ancestors are wierd little organisms that live in the ocean. and the main ingredients in lifes' recipe came from space. comets crashing down on early earth carring organic molecules and water. some even say that the water on earth came from an outside source, such as a comet. there is sooooooooooo many aspects to our universe, our solar system, and earth. many of which are based on scientific facts and laws. i just dont see how everything can be so easliy dismissed to make way for religion. faith does great things for people, including most of my family. however, there is a BIG difference between having faith and being purposely oblivious to the facts all around. -cmr- who else besides me misses rasta's input??
No god. Only the creator. The creator exists but he doesnt exist, The creator is in every person, under every rock, in every ocean.
So the creator is the creation? How did the creation come about then? Did the creator just spontaneously create creation?
The Creation didn't come about. The Creation just is, and will be forever and ever. And yes, the Creator is also the Creation- the energy couldn't make something new, only manipulate itself through it's abilities. Although the irronic part is through all-power it is able to totally contradict itself and make illusion, reality. It is something new yet it isn't. I choose to see it as genius, sheer ability as all-knowledge.
Technically it's a common theory (doesn't need to be cited), I just put it out in my own words and anyway, if i was ripping off anyone, it would've been spongebong hemp pants =P that's the last time i heard that, heh.