So I've only ever done coco and things are finally turning out really nice after a couple of slow runs. Just being new there's so much of a learning curve it's hard to get a mix of high quality & high yield. Finally I think I'm getting both with coco and really enjoy it as a medium. The reason I wanted to do hydro originally is because of its increased yields compare to soil. And I choose coco over hydroton because of ease of use, mix, disposal and a handful of other things. I really love coco. But I'd also love to increase yields as much as possible. Is DWC the highest yielding of all of the hydroponic techniques, even over coco? Would it be worth it to switch completely? What's the difference between aeroponics and DWC? I'm trying to go 100% organic and I'm probably 2/3 of the way there with coco right now and could easily get to 100% organic with my nutrients and am already there with a super rich quasi-hydro/soil-like medium with my coco recipe of - coco, worm castings, bat guano, perlite and Great White. It was so rich last time I had a million springtails in my coco. But can you go 100% Organic with a DWC setup? Isn't keeping all of the buckets clean in a DWC a pain in the ass? Do they have to be cleaned weekly? I do like the concept of having a closed system so you're not running through as much water & nutes compared to a drain to waste & evaporating coco setup.
I would recommend against a organic dwc setup. If you want to run organic do coco. Aeroponics has the roots sitting in complete air and being misted by a fine mist sprayer. The roots receive optimum levels of o2 this way. Organics will cause a gunky build up and will clog sprayers, lines, etc in most hydro setups. Ebb and flow table or a ebb and gro buckets should also be fine for a organic regimen.
Ok so Aeroponics is misters, basically like a big giant Turbo Kloner where as DWC are buckets of water the roots are always submerged in? How do they not get root rot if they're always submerged in a DWC? Which has bigger yields, Aeroponics or DWC? Are bucket systems I see labeled as "Under Current" - this is the DWC correct? Or are there different kinds of DWC?
Yes, aeroponic is basically a cloner for flowering plants. And yes, undercurrent is dwc. And yes, there are different forms of dwc. Some people recirculate their solution and some just put each plant in its own reservoir. Recirculating takes more money and time to setup but in the end it is less maintenance and it is possible to set up one automatic feeding reservoir that constantly maintains the water level in the whole system. Everything can be controlled from this one bucket or 'control bucket' such as ppm and ph. The roots are feed their o2 viz air pump and air stones. I give each plant a 8" air stone for the most o2 I can deliver. It is possible to just use one air stone and run a fast current and deliver o2 to the roots viz dissolved o2 in the water but with o2 in the water more is always better and I remember reading that a larger percentage or o2 is used from direct contact rather then dissolved in the water so for this reason I give each plant their own air site. If you put multiple plants in one tub with one air stone you will notice the roots fighting each other for oxygen. I have no experience with a aero setup but I have heard good and bad. Its great all that o2 but if one sprayer clogs or the pump fails then the outcome can be catastrophic. I have heard of such issues. The problem if anything goes wrong its inside the tubs and you wouldn't even notice it unless you look in there or see the plants not happy. I would suspect and hear that dwc has larger yields and faster growth for the simple fact the roots are constantly sitting in the solution with plenty of air so they are essentially being feed 24hrs a day. Also if the air pump fails or the recirculating pump fails it would be fine for some a day or two since water can hold dissolved oxygen for approximately 24hrs. Cold water can hold more o2 for a longer period then warm water. Here is a water temperature dissolved o2 chart for shits and giggles. Temperature (C) \t\tDissolved oxygen (mg/l) 30 \t\t6.4 25 \t\t7.0 20 \t\t7.6 15 \t\t8.4 10 \t\t9.3 5 \t\t10.5 I have really wanted to try a aero setup but am doing fine now so don't really want to spend the money or time. Plus the fact it could easily fail and I don't go into my room too often so it is a little intimidating. Also root rot is a common problem among dwc users especially when roots get burned from high ppm then they die and rot starts or it can start from high water temps or low o2 levels. The key to no root rot is nutrient and o2 management. Synthetic nutrients are better for dwc and aero since they don't gunk up but plants are more sensitive to synthetic nutes especially in dwc where plants are swimming in nutes. Hopefully you get something useful from all that.
That was actually a really good description, thanks. Organics is the most important to me, so whatever medium/growing option I choose needs to fit that profile. The DWC does interest me though, I think even with the organics I use & with those 2" under current pipes, I really couldn't imagine it being an issue with clogging. I'm just wondering how long the organics will be ok before going rancid & needing replacement. I guess changing the water out weekly would be the best schedule to be on, but that seems like an awful lot of work compared to growing in coco & just having to keep it wet. If I chose DWC, I would want to do a recirculating closed loop system with all buckets connected & one main control bucket to add nutes, adjust levels & top off. The yield would have to be a considerable increase from a coco grow for me to want to switch over and deal with the additional work load. Coco is pretty easy over all.
My issue has always been bringing in and disposing of a medium. Water is just the most discreet thing for me. How do you dispose of your medium? The organics will clog the air stones also so if you insist on organics, I have no idea why, but buy double the stones and switch them every res change to avoid them from clogging. IMO the only benefit from a organic grow is the ability of a forgiving nute that wont burn your plant so easily. In the end a organic nutrients needs to be broken down into a element before it can be used by the plant. This breaking down is basically turning it into the same thing. It is the element the plant is using, not of which it was derived from. Nitrogen is always nitrogen and phosphorus is always phosphorus and it is that way for all elements. The synthetic nutrients are just readily available and it is easy to burn your plant with them. Some people will argue that you get more flavor from a organic grow but everything about organics is bs imo even everything at the store it is all a gimmick to get more money from everyone. Plants have always been grown organic. Just because they are now labeled that way means nothing to me. The fertilizers all get turned into the same substance for the plant to use and these are elements, not poopoo or bone. I think the thing is that organics are so much easier to grow with that people rarely burn their plants which results in optimum growth and quality then they spread the rumor that organics grows a superior plant but this is just not the case. All nutes are just as capable, weather 'organic' or 'synthetic'. Its just synthetic nutes are harder to use correctly. Sorry, I'm sure I will get hounded for that one but just my opinion. Hey there is always ebb and gro buckets they work ok with organics and you could even use coco if you wanted instead of the clay pebbles. It would be less maintenance then coco alone.
Why don't u do ebb and flow in coco? Still hydro And close to yields of dwc. Best hydro from what I hear is aero then dwc the. Rest fall close behind.
I'm all about organics 100% of the way. With the food I eat and the cannabis I smoke. I'm not 100% organic with the cannabis, but hope to get to that level in the very near future and then continue on that path. I don't really want to get into an organic vs synthetic discussion/argument in this thread though. As far as disposing of the medium, with coco it's not really hard since it doesn't weigh much at all, especially compared to hydroton. Just put it into a few black bags, doubled up, each one tied up individually & toss in a different place than your grow site. There's a bit of transporting there so you need to be careful, but it keeps your grow spot from being discovered in case of a mishap of your garbage getting broken open or dug into by someone. How is Ebb & Grow different from Ebb & flow? I realize it's the same concept of fill & drain multiple times per day, but is it just called "Grow" instead of flow because of the bucket system? One of the only problems with using coco is it's hard to recirculate because of the salt content of the original coco, I would imagine this would still be an issue with an Ebb & Grow setup. Although I would love if this was possible. But them again, the salt issue only seems to come into play with being an issue when the coco gets too dry. Technically salt in the mix can help with mag issues, so if you could always keep your coco wet (which it always should be but if your hand watering daily, there's still some downtime of it being drier than it should) so an automated ebb & grow system with coco could possible work. Seems you could get essentially the DWC with coco & an Ebb & Grow setup since the coco will always remain wet & saturated throughout the day, allowing the plant to constantly feed like if it was in a DWC setup. Is there a type of re-usable grow stone? I know that with hydroton you are supposed to throw it out each use (although I don't understand why you can't just wash it & reuse it. A friend says that because you can never get it totally clean & could possible have root rot, destroying your grow. I would imagine those porous grow stones are a no no for reuse as well. But what about another medium like those ceramic stones companies use in big machines to polish/smooth things? Those seem like they could be easily washed & re-used. so then other than the initial startup costs you don't have to keep buying mediums. As long as you can keep a reusable medium clean.
Johhny are you aware that Organic food is a scam? Organic growers use 10 times more "organic" pesticide than synthetic pesticide users do. The largest "organic" growers are actually multibillion dollar corporations so you wouldnt even be supporting your local mom and pop. Check out more of the facts about it but its a scam portrayed by the media and food industry to get consumers to pay more. BTW did you know that if all farming was done organically, there would be so much wasted space and crops that BILLIONS of people on the planet would have to die for it to work. Also 9 out of ten people say that non organic foods taste/look better/healthier than their organic counterparts in blind taste tests. I only bring this up because I too started going organic until I figured these things out. so back to the grow Hydroton can be reused. Its easily baked in an oven to be sterilized root rot isnt a contagious disease the "grow" is that companies Product Name for THEIR Ebb and Flow style set up salt buildup is only a problem where there is excessive surface are at the top exposed to lights that quickly dry up media soaked with nutrients. This is easily controlled in hydro by blocking with reflective mylar
I'm using hydroton in an ebb and flow setup, and so far I really like it, but one of the local grow shops recommended coco instead (and he's a guy who knows what he's talking about). What's the big deal with it? I thought hydroton would be better for drainage and getting air to the roots, with coco it seems like some of the roots would stay wet all the time which is bad without o2.... and it also can't be reused but hydroton can... not sure if my net pots will survive once they get all tangled up with roots though.
grow shop owners are NOT to be trusted they mean well but theyre like anyone else with a story. Something worked for them and now theyve got the power to shove it down your throat!
LOL, well the guy does know his shit, but he seemed offended when I told him I like to shop around for prices and buy some of my stuff online, and frankly I really think he was pushing coco because it's disposable and has to be repurchased every time. It makes sense from a business standpoint, but for me, I want as few recurring costs as possible. However, I want to know performance wise how it stacks up to hydroton and what needs to be done differently, if anything. So far I'm happy with what I'm using, but I haven't had to clean it yet.
well if you look at it from his POV hes probably proud of his business so it can be a little offensive to say "Im gonna get what YOU can get somewhere else :/ people have great success with coco but with the ease of a small ammount of cheap disposable rockwool and plenty off inexpensive reusable hydroton, I just dont see the point. Hydroton can be cleaned by baking it. Doesnt get easier than that. Wonder if coco's the same
Yeah, I understand, but he also has to understand from a consumer's point of view, buying everything from your local shop is going to cost you FAR more that ordering at least some of your stuff online. I bought my lights, bulbs, and ballast (all high end stuff) from one shop and and bunch of nutes and pots and other stuff from another just to build the relationship. But I'll openly admit that I shop around - I want to know everything that's out there and where good deals are - that only makes sense from another business owner's standpoint. I need to find a pan big enough to fit a LOT of hydroton...
this is the problem we have with a consumer driven society. Everythings gotta be cheaper somewhere else. It destroys the brick and mortar store that cant keep up online drop shipped items. Lower costs are destroying this nations economy. I dont fault you for trying to find a better price but we as a nation are obsessed with having more "stuff" to fill up our houses. Then we buy a bigger house so we can fit more "stuff" in it
Completely off topic, but I don't completely disagree with you. As a consumer it always makes sense for me to get the best value for my money. Purchasing from local shops allows me to meet some cool locals who have a similar interest in my hobby, and I usually buy a few things while I'm there. Sometimes you just gotta have something that day. Or maybe the shop owner is really knowledgeable and gives you tips. Either way, I think there will always be a place for local shops, but they have to be smart about how to make money in the consumer driven society if they are going to survive. There are always going to be customers that want a specialty shop to help them with a complete design and hold their hand through the process. I'm just not one of them. I do think we should support local businesses though, and that is another reason I buy things from them, even when I could otherwise just go online for everything. I'm personally not out to get more and more stuff, just to invest in my hobby and cover the bills.
Wow dude call me a weirdo but you just throw your garbage in random places...? I bet that's good for the ecosystem huh? Shame on you litter bug. Yes ebb and gro buckets are very similar to flood and drain but buckets. The benifit is they each get their own site and plenty on root room so the yields and growth is increased. More root = more fruit. Always, and I don't care to hear else wise. All medium can be reused if you can clean the salt build up and disinfect it properly. Its not like medium is being transported here from outer space. It all comes from the dirty ground and gets prepped in a factory. The question is only weather or not you have the time and means to prep it properly. There's many ways to sterilize and clean the medums. Sun baking the dirt, baking the stones in a oven, boiling them, rinsing them with high pressure water, I think there's even ways to bake the dirt in the oven to disinfect it. And there's always good ol h2o2 that will disinfect anything and dissipate in a few days. The only thing is after so many washes the hydroton begins to break down and fall apart. That stuff cleans so easy that's probably why they stopped making it. Now they have been replaces with Grow Rocks. My local store owner was like, the supply guy said not to reuse these and I was like, but it says reusable right on the bag. He was like, oh nutuh does it? I laughed then said doesn't that stuff have silica in it? He was like, I dunno. Then I read more on the package and sure enough there it said contains silica. I showed the guy and he was like oh uh I guess it does then. Its pretty bad when you know more then the shop guys...well bad for them, not me. And if I hear the guy say Sense-eye one more time for sensi (pronounced sense E) I may freak on him. A 'senseye', written sensi, is a Japenese word meaning karate instructor. Then he calls hydroton, hi-drotten and that drives me up the wall. Then the owner of some other store I went to tried to tell me the ph chart is the same for soil and hydro. So just goes to show how much these guys really don't know. Not saying your guy doesn't know his stuff but just saying they all think or claim they do. They're not grow pro's just growers that had the means to open a supply shop. All the real pros are still growing away.