So I was on Omegle... You: hi stranger Stranger: hello Stranger: who are you? You: Courtney. Who are you? Stranger: Dave Stranger: but that's just an identity Stranger: it is generally a meaningless identifier Stranger: so who are you You: Wow. That's so true. Well I mean, I wouldn't be able to define myself with anything You: Not through a computer anyway. You: Actually, not in any way. You can't define a person in any way. Stranger: a bold statement Stranger: so when you think of yourself, what do you think of? You: Hm. Good question. I think of myself as...an old soul trapped. Stranger: that means very little Stranger: what is a soul? You: I mean, I guess each person could define it differently You: But I know that inside me there's something else You: something entirely different than my physical state You: you know? You: That's what I meant Stranger: I suppose. Stranger: Are you sure it's inside you? Stranger: how do you know it's not above you? or beside you? You: Well..no. That's a good point You: But I mean, no one else can see it, or measure it with any material form of measurement. Stranger: So does it exist You: Yes You: I have consciousness. That proves it You: right? Stranger: not really You: Why not? Stranger: Even the complexities of the human mind and human thought can, in theory, be mapped given enough computational power Stranger: even something as complex as love could, in theory, be reduced to an equation You: TRUE. BUT! Humans have syntax, we have memories. We give those equations meaning with like..our ability to re-connect it with other things You: Ugh, I feel like I sound stupid, but I know what I mean. You: Computers don't know what they're saying You: they can't attach those facts to anything Stranger: but, when you boil it down, what are we but the world's most complex computers? Stranger: granted, we are self-aware Stranger: but so is skynet You: Haha! No, we have syntax! We are more than just machines that spit out facts. I just went over this all last semester with my philosophy class. It totally boggled my mind, but we do have something more You: Not even necessarily souls, but we can have preference You: and opinions You: and personal identity Stranger: yes, but even those are mappable as a set of chemical reactions that take place in the brain Stranger: If, in theory, every single atom of your being and the world around you was mapped Stranger: your every thought could be predicted Stranger: and that makes you no more than a child of the physical world, complex or not You: Wow. How depressing. You: I don't believe it You: I think we aren't just pre-planned You: I mean..I don't know if it's a soul or not, but there has to be something different about us. Stranger: why? You: Because. We have emotions and feelings and the ability to connect with another person. Stranger: and? You: and..I don't know. That proves it. You: Wait You: I think that our bodies are only the physical part of who we are. We're comfortable relying on it because we can "prove" it with our 5 senses You: But I am not my brain. Nor am I my heart, or my arm You: There's something more Stranger: you insist that humans are more than flesh Stranger: what about animals? Stranger: trees? Stranger: rocks? Stranger: where do you draw the line? You: I don't know..I thought I was on to something and you totally threw me off You: I mean I guess all living organisms would fit into my category Stranger: so a tree has a soul? You: It grows..it's technically living. You: So yeah. Makes sense to me Stranger: ok. just wanted to know where you stand before proceeding Stranger: so you think that all living creatures have what is essentially an invisible fairy that floats around somewhere either inside or around them? You: If you want to dumb it down like that, sure. Stranger: well if you can't define what a soul is (and who can?), then I'm stuck with using something i can relate to Stranger: such as a fairy You: Alright I know I know. But I feel like you're making fun of me. Whatever, continue. Stranger: I'm not really making fun of you, just showing you the absurdity of your worldview You: Hey that's not nice. Just because someone's worldview is different does't make it wrong. Stranger: I didn't say it was wrong, just absurd You: Well absurd implies negativity. Stranger: Muslims don't eat pork Stranger: i find that absurd Stranger: Are they necessarily wrong? well I have no proof of that You: True. Alright, point taken. Stranger: moving on Stranger: so why do you choose to believe that these fairies exist? You: I believe it because I can tell the flaws of my human body You: but I believe that our fairies are perfect. and can precieve and exist in a whole new way Stranger: elaborate You: Like..there are sounds we can't hear, that only dogs can. But I think that if we weren't limited by our physical bodies...we'd be ale to hear every noise ever because sound would't have to travel through one of our portals for us to recognize it You: portals meaning ears, eyes, even skin. You: You know..senses we use to explain what happens outside of our bodies Stranger: Is that intended to be an analogy or is that what you actually think? You: No I really think that. And once we free ourselves from our bodies our fairies can experience everything You: for what it really is Stranger: ok You: Especially when you throw quantum physics into it and consider that everything is an limitless possibility You: but humans collapse those possibilities Stranger: alright. now I might make fun of you. I'll try my best Stranger: to avoid such a result You: Haha alright go for it. I'll try not to get too insulted. Stranger: first off, the human body does respond to things like subsonic sound frequencies because we feel them. Another example would be non-visilble light such as UV causing sunburns. Stranger: even supersonic sound frequencies cause molecular motion, it's just not significant enough for us to register Stranger: you seem to imply that there is some "more real" reality than what we experience You: That's exactly what I'm saying! Stranger: of which you have no proof Stranger: moreover, you have no reason to believe that we have any way to experience this enhanced reality through our magical souls being "released from our bodies" Stranger: Finally, quantum physics allow for "anything to be possible" in respect to the orientation of particles Stranger: the reason my fingers don't go through my keyboard right now are because the probability of that kind of molecular displacement is essentially zero Stranger: not because I am a human confined to some restricted reality You: Well, you got me on the proof thing. I guess I can't count on my gut feeling as proof. But I just really don't think this is it for me. But when I said what I said about quantum physics I didn't mean particles, I mean the waves of matter and the double slit experiment. How, when humans observed and measured it, the waves went back to behaving like matter. I'm not gonna pretend like I know what you mean by the molecular displacement You: but I do think that things that happen, or the reason your fingers aren't going through your keyboard is because you expect them not to. and you know they haven't a million times in the past so you aren't going to count on it now You: Hold on a sec, I'm gonna use the bathroom DON'T LEAVE. Stranger: haha ok Stranger: in the meantime Stranger: I'd stay away from physics if i were you. Stranger: The phenomenon you are referencing is merely the nature of light. It can act as both a wave and a particle. Stranger: That really has nothing to do with your argument You: It's not just light. It's all matter! Stranger: Well, matter is really just light in a physical state, but that is, once again, beside the point You: Yeah it does. I'm saying that it's these bodies that limit everything, including the possibilites of matter and if our fairies we're experiencing everything at its purest it wouldn't be the way we see things now Stranger: Second, my expectation of my fingers going through my keyboard has absolutely zero effect on the physics of the situation. Stranger: The only way to make the physical matter of the world more "pure" would be to release all of the energy in the universe from its trapped state Stranger: So everything would just kinda disintigrate in a huge nuclear explosion, sans fireball Stranger: Honestly, Courtney, you would be much better off arguing for an alternate universe or something else that is unprovable rather than relying on a fairly rudimentary knowledge of physics. You: Ouch. Alright. I guess I don't know shit. I just like to think of there being something more than this physical reality. Stranger: Feel free to think that if it makes you happy. Just know that it's not in this universe. Stranger: Religion, no matter how absurd, is the opiate of the masses after all You: I wasn't even trying to come from a religious standpoint. I just think it's kind of grim to think that this is all that there is for us. And after that we're dead and nothing more comes of it. You: I'd like to know that some part of me goes on. Stranger: rather, I find it makes life so much more important Stranger: It makes the smells so much sweeter, experiences so much richer, knowing that I only have a short amount of time to experience them You: But that's so unfair...I don't want to have to be stuck here being this and only this. I want to be able to choose Stranger: please. If you lived forever would you ever be able to truly appreciate the beauty of life? Stranger: Would you be able to understand the importance of death? You: Not if I was stuck in this reality, but if there were different places, where time wasn't even linear You: it wouldn't matter Stranger: Would anything, ANYTHING, have any sort of significance? You: I think so You: er. I thought. Stranger: I find that people who believe in an afterlife never truly spend their time in the physical world as well as they should You: I suppose that makes sense. Stranger: They make the mistake of waiting for something better Stranger: or, even worse, don't realize that they are already standing in the middle of paradise You: I would never call this paradise..everyone is so incredibly shallow. Everyone's so caught up in material possessions and owning everything. Everything is such a competition. I always pictured a better place where equality was key. and everyone looked out for the good of society as a whole. You: I don't know. You're slightly depressing me Stranger: and why is that paradise? You: Because positivity is generated, not negativity. Stranger: What you're describing is marxism. and we already know that fails. Granted, it fails because people don't behave according to your "ideal" Stranger: But, given that not all people think exactly alike Stranger: (which, by the way, is what makes the world so rich) Stranger: this is damn near pretty good, which is all you can ask for Stranger: Think about it, in your ideal world, would we even be having this conversation? You: I don't know. I guess not. Stranger: In your ideal world, people wouldn't be free to express themselves because they couldn't get in touch with their inner darkness Stranger: The world would be deprived of so much beauty Stranger: No music, just a synphonic buzz that goes on throughout eternity because everyone lives forever Stranger: So i have to ask Stranger: how does it feel to be mindfucked by someone with the mental equivalent of a 13-incher? You: HAHA You: horrible Stranger: really? i thought you would derive at least some pleasure out of it You: No. None. Actually if you want me to be totally honest. I was crying for a little part of it. I've been living 19 years thinking that I was a good person and that I wouldn't have to deal with this life forever and that something better would come. But now I feel stuck, stupid, and angry that I'm wasting my life. You: Congradulations. Stranger: You're welcome You: Do you frequently ruin peoples' lives? Or am I the first? Stranger: Oh no, I do it all the time You: Because I have to say, you're really good at it. Stranger: it's quite entertaining Stranger: but i really don't tend to think of it as ruining such as helping people out Stranger: sure, you hate me now, but you're going to see the world differently tomorrow Stranger: You're going to question things a lot more, and you're going to develop some sort of idea of what you want to do with your life Stranger: and, for that, I've done my job You: I already know what I want to do with my life, but your ideas aren't going to help me reach anything. I'm still stuck. And even if I start to appreciate what's around me more, that doesn't mean I'll get any further to where I want to be You: and besides, I don't want to have to strive for anything anyway You: I want to be happy with what I've produced. Instead of thinking of my life as a checklist You: before the time runs out You: I don't know. As of right now I kinda just don't care. I wish I would've known you were going to completely flip my beliefs though, at the beginning of this. I would'v stayed on another chat site You: That's another thing, why are you coverting people via omegle?! You: Sorry. I'm just frustrated in general right now. You: Are you there? You: hello? My internet had disconnected & closed down. I was PISSED. But yeah. I know it's long. Any thoughts? I'm very confused and uneasy right now. :/
My thoughts: I love rationalists who put religious/supernatural nonsense in its place. It's good that you actually were receptive to that guy's words. Many times people just disregard such reasoned words and continue living with the same senseless thoughts.
trust me on this astral bodies do exist. they are our etheric body. things do exist that our science is not advanced enough to understand. or quite possibly that can never be known through science, but only subjection (meaning you experience it). I speak of telepathy and other things of that nature. seeing the future? Things like that. In my opinion, a divinely intelligent creator would design a universe in which humans like us with our simple consciousness when compared to him, would not be able to understand all there is about it with only a few centuries of modern science.. Seriously. It would make much more sense that there's a whole world of knowledge that we have no way of truly connecting to or understanding as of yet...(faster than light travel is beyond our knowledge of the way the universe works. but it is possible) and also... meditation literally evolves our mind. It physically alters it. It makes it much more efficient as well. This means that there are probably other species out there with higher level of consciousness' than even us. ALSO, Through meditation, we can control physiological aspects of our body that SCIENCE believed only our nervous system could!! We can create random ness! We can invent! That proves that everything canNOT be boiled down to an equation. Now, in my opinion, there has to be a creator. I don't believe in religion, that is man made. This reality is so simple, it's not even absurd to believe in such a thing in my opinion. I don't know if an afterlife exists with this consciousness we now possess.. i think that it most likely doesn't. I like to hope that it does. have you ever heard of astral projection? I believe in that as well. Look it up. It's basically faerie projection .
I see why you were able to be swayed by him so easily, i tend to agree with his rationale because i ascribe to a similar epistemological belief however that does not mean that he is right. It depends on whether you choose to focus on rational or empirical knowledge in order to come to your conclusions. I do not believe in god because i tend to focus on empirical evidence, however i have heard some excellent rationalist arguments that prove the possibility of god's existence regardless of how illogical the concept is. edit. If you are religious and that makes you happy, by all means just concede that your belief cannot be rationalized because the nature of god is illogical and cannot be defined by our terms. They call it faith for a reason, you do not need evidence or rationale to back it up. In my opinion there is nothing inherently superior or deficient between atheism or theism, it really depends on the person because each side will use different kinds of evidence to prove their point.
stranger relied too much on proof. nothing can be proven, at least in a nihilistic way. However, take a view more like descartes, which is somewhat nihilistic, and you find yourself boiling it down to "nothing exists." ...but wait! I can question my existence, which means i can think. If I think, I am. If I think not, I am. Skeptical or not, you're thinking, so you exist. Does my physical body exist? am i dreaming? am i really watching tv on planet earth? I don't know - but i am manifesting these thoughts, so in some way, i exist. Sort of off tangent, but applies since "stranger," relied so much on proof. There are too many thing's that can't be proven. Take descartes view - he knew he existed, and he could only prove it through the whole "I think, therefore i am," theory. Other than that, he knew that there was no proof that anything else existed. In his mind, i'm sure he knew his body existed, as well as earth, etc, but it could not be proven... nor can the existence of a soul. I feel deep sympathy for those who don't believe in some form of "soul," "cosmic energy," "universal consciousness," or whatever you want to call that part of you that intuitively recognizes and feels the unexplainable, transcending all that exists in this material or physical plane - whether "it" exists or not. If it were to exist, then there would be no way to prove it. Rely on proof, and Columbus lands on the shores of India while the sun is revolving around our flat planet
The map must be mapped. He doesn't take into account that we process zeros as a concept, which are nonexistent in 'reality'. Because it's not there; we can't see it or touch it or taste it. But it exists. The 'not there'. I believe when I die nothing happens. I also believe I can have no understanding of the concept of 'nothing'. Kudos to The Stranger for filling the opposite parabola. And thanks for posting this!
I was on acid once http://forum.grasscity.com/spirituality-philosophy/530995-shortcut-enlightenment-we-thought-we-were-going-die.html and basically I learned In an infinity of mirrors what would light see? How can light see light? If you've got a light microscope, how are you going to see a photon? If you are electromagnetism how could you possibly sense yourself, without either cancelling out or changing frequency What i'm trying to say is to experience certain things, sometimes it is required that there is no information transfer, some things just are Science can scope into a many great things but science cannot scope into the experience of consciousness no microscope is ever going to explain why the color red is red to us even after they map out every frequency known to trigger a red sensation Subjectivity simply would be unscientific it is out of its scope
Aero; thanks man. I figure everyone should deserve to be heard, even if I don't agree/understand what you're saying. iMaven; I'm in the same boat as you. I don't know why I let my beliefs turn to mush with this guy, but I agree with you completely. I do believe there is something more than our physical state. Thanks for the support and reassurance. I got so shaken up. Also, I've only slightly heard of astral projection, but I will most definitely look it up, my best friend was really into it but I never really understood it, I should take a second look. TJforMJ; I agree with you there. Especially because proof or not you cannot tell someone what to believe. Today I woke up early because I was so upset and I watched the sunrise. I needed something to restore my faith. I could never place you down in front of the sunrise and say "You should believe in a higher being because of this" But for me it worked. I think people totally vary in what they believe and in the end you just have to find what makes you happy. If you feel that conectedness and hightened spiritual sense through logical terms, then that's your way. We're all on different paths. I love the way you summed it up. Very nice. NFloyd2357; I learned a little on Descartes in my philosophy class. I agree that our consciousness gives way to existence, but I got thrown off when Stranger said that computer programs can be self aware as well. Does one thing necessarily exist more than another? Exactly! I mean I completely understand wanting things to be proven. We're human, we like facts. But there are some things, especially spiritual things, that cannot be proven. But I know there is soemthing more. I am positive. There has to be more than a physical world, because the physical world is SO flawed. H20420; I think this was a big test of my faith, I'm a lot more happier knowing that there could be something out there that I as a physical human cannot even understand because of the intensity. I think he was definitely the devil's advocate in my corner but I realize now I kinda needed to see a different perspective. I totally agree that there is a definite nothing-ness to which we can't identify but still count on. I mean, the absence of something in turn creates the something itself. I don't think that made sense, but the concept of balance applies. There has to be something to balance the void. You know? Mnemonicsmoke; Yeah definitely. Plus, science is still developing. I mean, we think we're go damn advance, but we've only JUST discovered some of the "vital" information we rely on. Likewise, as I talked about in the conversation, quantum physics suggests that matter can change it's patterns based on whether it's being recorded or not. So just the act of measuring it for scientific purposes, changes the outcome! How can we ever really know an outcome if every time we document it, it changes?! Thank SO MUCH to everyone who replied. I got some real good insight out of this experience. I'm discovering lately that I tend to believe whatever anyone tells me to believe. But I've been working really hard on trying to form my own beliefs, and discover what I need to discover for myself. Standing on my own two feet, if you will. ALSO. At the risk of sounding like a complete loser. Can someone tell me how to +rep? I think you deserve it.
computer programs can't be self aware. skynet is from the terminator movies. it's not possible for our technology to even fathom the creation of a high enough level of consciousness to possess sentience as animals do have their own low form of consciousness.. we couldn't even create something like that. just my 2 cents.
Reminds me of the time when an online forum/religious debate message board demolished my most deepest faith and beliefs; Christianity. Man, it felt unreal to have those doubts; I didn't think I'd ever be the same. But don't worry, you'll soon be able to integrate your new beliefs into your life, hopefully it's for the better. Like really, initially it feels like shit, but over time you just adapt, just like you do with everything else. Back to feeling normal in no time...
He speaks of using your time wise to enjoy this "paradise" of a world yet he spends his time on omegle trying to scare the weak minded? And enjoys it? Some paradise. He trolled you well it seems.
Sounds like a modern Socratic dialogue. I see a problem, by the way. While this stranger is leading you to an idea, he is leading you there by your own reasoning. Whilst a certain post in here about astral projections and such says only "trust me". Who are you going to trust then, yourself, or someone else who will give no evidence to his views?
I mean, hypothetically, i suppose a computer could be self aware. It isn't capable of making it's own actions, it needs an input - but then again, by the same philosophy, you could say that humans (may) need a form of input for actions. I think to say that computers are self-aware is a bit farfetched though. Based on descartes, (simplified), 'I think, so i am, I think not, so i am.' Because one can question one's existence, he must exist. A computer can't question its existence... unless of course human's are computers.
Humans seem like a complex computer. We have our programming too; the evolutionary process, our human nature. I think our programming is just so complex that it creates this illusion of self-awareness and free will and such.
You let this person completely alter your way of thinking? That's...just...sad. This person tossed a bunch of shit at you and you just sat there and absorbed it. Basically, you allowed them to get off on having someone sit there and take their shit. I mean this is just some douche that is sitting around on a chat site and you really take everything he says to heart? I am sure he is used to more aggressive responses, but you probably gave him some delight in yoru responses.