Hello again friends, I come to you organic gurus in search of help making my final leap into self-sufficient gardening - mastering the art of cloning. I do have a green thumb, I swear. I can grow anything from a seed. But you would not believe the difficulty I've had trying to root cuttings. Instead of writing a long essay about all of the failures I've been through in the past few months, I'll just say this - I've tried everything. I've had two cuttings root successfully out of...I'm going to say approximately 50. My green thumb suddenly feels very grey To keep it simple, I'd just like to know what you guys find to be the most important, 'make it or break it' factors in your cloning technique. The one thing I have not invested in is a heating mat, but the temperature in my veg chamber stays at right about 75 degrees anyway so I didn't think it would be necessary. So, ladies and gentlemen, what factors do you think are most important? I'm open to any critique short of "you just need water and soil" because it's becoming apparent to me that there must be *something* more to it, otherwise I'd have 50 clones on my hands. What gives?
I take a growing tip, count 3 fan leaves down from the top, cut it, dip in water to prevent embolism. Snip off lower 2 fan leaves, make a 45 degree cut just below the bottom growth that was chopped off. Stick it in whatever medium I'm attempting to root in (currently 6 in a bubbler, 8 in rockwool cubes and 6 in soil mix). 4 of my cubes have been soaked with water treated with a drop of superthrive, 4 with plain water (I really want to avoid using chemical products, but have heard nothing but great things about superthrive so I decided to give it a shot). All of my cuttings in rockwool and soil are in ziplock bags to hold humidity, otherwise the humidity would be at ~40% and they wilt very quickly. Of the 6 in the bubbler, I think two have a couple with white spots forming on the stem, but have since developed a transparent brown-ish slime over the exposed stem. In each scenario, half of my cuttings have also had their stems lightly scraped about 1/2 inch up from the 45 degree cut, because I've heard this can help by exposing more flesh to grow roots from. So I decided to try both ways with each method. Where I use a dome, I open it at around day 4 or 5 to acclimate them to lower humidity. They generally stay perky and green for weeks, but never end up putting out roots, and after about 3 weeks I will gently pull on them to see if there is any rooting activity that I can't see from the outside, and always find that there is absolutely no root growth and the exposed flesh at the 45 degree cut has turned brown and dead looking.
"They generally stay perky and green for weeks," Then continue to leave them alone... Cuttings take time sometimes... Try using aloe juice and soaked kelp water to wet your medium too - these have what we want in them. J
I love my home made aerator but use to use rockwool. are you getting your water to proper PH for rockwool? 5.2-5.5. Try a black tray with a humidity dome, you can leave the top on tight or slide to get more air in depending. If your starting to get white nubs then your doin something correct. some people mist some don't, like jerry said time is important! see if this link helps? https://www.opengrow.com/topic/45-how-to-make-your-own-cuttings/
Ive used nothing but the coffee can cloner. 100% success rate so far out of maybe 10 clones. http://forum.grasscity.com/index.php?/topic/1127189-Faye's-Coffee-Can-Cloner-DIY-Tutorial Havent tried any other method, but ive also never needed to
Jerry - I know..LITFA. But like I said, I'll give it roughly 3 weeks and then find that the bottoms of the stems are brown and slimy, rotting it looks like to me. Is this normal? It looks really unhealthy compared to most photos/videos I've seen of folks with rooted cuttings. I'll give the kelp/aloe juice a shot though next time it's time to trim back the momma. RAB - I have tried pHing my water and tried not pHing my water. Both seem to give exactly the same results - not much. I've got the black tray/drainage tray/humidity dome, and I've tried with and without the dome. Again, not too much difference. I don't have a problem keeping them 'alive,' they just don't seem to want to root and still eventually just die off. LoneRanger - That's the bubbler setup I'm using. This seems to be working the best so far (the only method giving me those little white bumps) but the little white nubs pretty soon get covered in some sort of clearish brown, semi-hard goop. Eventually the white nubs just seem to stop growing. Thanks for your time and input guys.
"Jerry - I know..LITFA. But like I said, I'll give it roughly 3 weeks and then find that the bottoms of the stems are brown and slimy, rotting it looks like to me. Is this normal? It looks really unhealthy compared to most photos/videos I've seen of folks with rooted cuttings. I'll give the kelp/aloe juice a shot though next time it's time to trim back the momma." What are you using for a medium? This tells me that whatever you're using might not be draining properly/sufficiently. J
I'm using a range of mediums (rockwool, soil, FCCC style bubble cloner, RapidRooters) right now to try and find one that works well for me, but the rockwool is the one that really seems to make the chopped tip look 'rotten'. I've heard lots of people say rockwool is great, and lots of people say rockwool is poor for cloning. Perhaps I'm not squeezing enough water out before planting? The RapidRooter plugs have done the same thing, but it's also had the highest success rate so far (at 1 out of 12 attempts..)
How often are you chaging your water on the can cloner if i can ask? I had a hard time first clone attempt but they did eventually root. I had to add and change my resivour water every 3-4 days with de-chloronated(sp) water. Usually when i see small bumps i get roots the next day or two. Also, what size air pump are you using? Maybe its possibly not pushing enough air thru the airstone to aerate the water and keep it fresh? Just my brain throwing out ideas hoping something useful comes out...lol
Also...i forgot to ask and the app wont let me edit. When you slice the 45* cut are you cutting up the middle of the stem a bit too? Like splitting it?
Your process sounds fine. But your roots are not getting enough oxygen. That is why they are turning brown. With rapid rooters, squeeze them out (not bone dry) before planting. Rockwool is an advanced cloning medium IMHO. Easy if you can do it, impossible if you can't. I saw no mention of a rooting hormone or cloning gel . What are you using for that? Instead of the bubbler and all that crap, build yourself a propagation dome. I use empty fruit containers from the local grocery. They are about 6 inches high and wide, with a good top. Cubes or plugs or whatever should not sit in water. Get them started and close them in prop.Every couple of days, open the top and spray the leaves with some water. Close them back up. If there is some humidity on the sides without it being sweating., that is perfect. In two weeks you should have roots, A too wet cube will fight against you. But what are you using for a rooting hormone ? What kind of light are they getting ?
I'll be posting a thorough guide on cloning via plugs and soil mixes very soon, thanks to Chunk's, jerry's, Haggard's and DBs input; next week most likely, when i finish up this batch of cuts. BTW Chunk, awesome idear there, with the passive humidity system....works like a charm, though I need to find a couple spare tiles to help distribute the heat more evenly.
Update: success. I'm glad I peed this morning before checking on my cuttings. One of the clones in the bubbler sprouted roots last night. A pair of roughly 2cm roots. Here's where I'm going to ask you fellas for some input: transplant to soil now or wait for the roots to grow longer? LoneRanger - I change my bubbler reservoir every week, but I guess I'll start doing it twice a week. It really does seem to put some life into 'em to toss them some fresh water. And I'm using a 40 gallon aquarium pump in roughly 1/2 gallon of water, so it seems like that's plenty to me? And no, I don't split the stems. I scraped half of them but I've never split a stem. BeachBuddy - I figured my cubes were too moist. I noticed the one time I got a rockwool cube to actually clone anything, the thing had gotten so dry the cutting fell over and shriveled up before it popped some roots out and picked itself up off the floor. I've also mentioned a few times that I have a humidity dome/propagation tray. I don't let my cubes sit in water, if any water drains out of the cubes it falls into grooves in the bottom of the propagation tray and drains away. I really have no problem keeping them alive long enough, theoretically (and practically) to root, they just *don't* pop the roots out. I'm not using rooting hormone anymore, I used to use cloneX but stopped because it says right on it do not use on consumable crops. Just using straight well water at this point. As for lighting I have a single 23w daylight (6500k) cfl bulb on them 24/7, roughly 6 inches from their tops. I was thinking this morning that may be too little? GiMiK - awesome man, I'll keep my eye out for it. I'll be experimenting to try and get a higher and faster success rate while I wait, but I'm positive you'll have some good advice to help me (and a lot of others) on my way. Thanks everybody you're all so damn swell. And patient.
I'm not sure if everyone splits their stem, I've had no problems doing it just to get more surface area (along with scraping). Im fairly certain I saw it once in this YouTube vid and it worked so I figured screw it.... As per your pump it sounds fine. Im using about the same size pump with no issues. And WOOHOO! Congrats on the roots! Glad to hear one made it...your green thumb is already comin back
chipped.. like you I've had dreadful results at my clone attempts.. Until this last attempt when I hit the jackpot with 20 out of 24 cuttings.. A pack of Grodan 2 inch cubes.. I've since decided the 1 inch is a better choice.. PH adjusted water worked out to 1/2 a lemon in a gallon of water with a hint of starter plant food.. under a 1/4 dose .. dunk cube and remove don't squeeze.. I took my cuttings from fully veg stage plants @ 24-0 the lowest branch then cut that into roughly 2 inch lengths consisting of a stem and single trimmed down leaf.. scrapped the side for 1/2 inch.. rolled in rooting jell then placed in an egged out hole in the cube to prevent the jell being rubbed off.. poking a small tool into the wool a 1/4 inch from the stem I encase the stem as best I can then I took small chunks of rock wool and with a blunt tool pushed them down the adjacent hole until the hole was packed fairly firm and the stem is well secured and snuggly packed around.. Placed the cubes on a bed of perlite an inch deep with the remaining PH lemon water / slight nute dose added to the perlite at about 1/2 inch deep.. Covered with plastic film and lit with a pair of 15 watt 6500 CFLs @ 4 inches 24-0.. I knocked the condensate off the plastic a couple time a day and in about 2 weeks had my 1st roots.. top side growth soon followed.. A week later with the plants just starting flower the same exact process has got me 2 out of 6 cuttings.. and I just took a 3rd set last week so it's to soon to see how they go.. Just my 2 cents on what worked for me.. I tried in soil.. I built a Fays coffee can cloner.. 3 out of over 50 cuttings with assorted methods.. ages and sizes.. Full veg stage and a very small cutting worked for me to get out of the dugout and at least onto the field.. You just don't feel like you have made the grade until you get an entire tray to clone.. My few hit and miss successes just teased me as I couldn't repeat it..
I think the 2" rockwool cubes are part of what's holding me back - there's just not enough air penetration I think. Must be very easy to overwater the 2" cubes. I'm doing my best to stay away from bottle nutrients and cloning gels though, and I don't think pH has much effect on cloning except to deter algal and fungal growth. I only took my most recent cuttings in rockwool about a week ago though, so they still have time before I expect anything to pop there. Thanks for your input man, I've never packed the open hole with more rockwool after planting, I'll see if that helps.
Gimik, you should also try, what I believe credit goes to mrsnoob, cuttings straight into perlite with nothing but water in a solo cup. Works fantastic!
I believe It's in SG1s thread where he talks about soil packing tightly around the stem of a fresh cutting.. A good pack should result in a take.. Sloppy work here is a near guarantee of failure.. And other cloning threads cover this as a very critical step that I've been doing improperly.. If your unwilling to use a cloning jell Jerry111165 covers the use of Aloe Vera plant as an organic cloning assist over in the easy organic soil thread I believe.. And the old method of steeped young willow shoot water might help.. Just stuff I've read.. Here is the relevant text Originally Posted by LumperDawgz2 RE: Cloning Gel Here are the components and why they're used: 1. Aloe Vera: Salicylic acid is a plant compound which has been used as a rooting agent for over 120 years in the nursery industry. This is the compound that's found in Willow trees which you might have run across in posts on rooting a cutting 2. Kelp: Kelp contains the natural forms of rooting compounds that you find in commercial products, compounds like Indole-3-acetic acid (IAA), Indole-3-butyric acid (IBA), 4-Chloroindole-3-acetic acid and Phenylacetic acid which are auxins (hormones - all auxins are hormones but not all hormones are auxins). These compounds perform different functions as far as facilitating root development, i.e. IAA creates the actual root sites on the cutting's shaft whereas IBA causes root elongation. All of these are in soluble form and are in an organic form vs. the versions found in Clonex, Dip-n-Grow, Olivia's, whatever. 3. Honey: Honey contains a slew of enzymes, amino acids and also contain compounds which function as a biofungicide exactly like Aloe Vera extracts. So there's the basic mix but you'll need to go one step further to get this into a gel. For that you can go to Dip-n-Grow and purchase a product that they call Dip Gel which is simply an inert carboxmethly cellulose product. When it's mixed with water it becomes very thick, i.e. a gel. The price was around $16.00 for a pound and you mixed it something like 10 grams to a quart of water and shake it and then let it sit overnight and the next morning you have gel. So you would use the kelp, aloe vera to create a rooting compound to the strength you want, add the Dip Gel powder and the next morning you'll have a quart of organic, effective rooting compound. The versions used in some of the commercial rooting compounds are registered pesticides (NAA in particular which is the one in Clonex if I remember correctly). Add some BioAg Fulvic Acid and increase the effectiveness even more. HTH LD edit 2: Here's a source for the carboxymethyl cellulose powder. It's $7.99 for 50g. You can also order it from alibaba, and there may be a cheaper price there. http://www.modernist...-cellulose.html I just want to note again that there's no need to include the cmc powder unless you really want it to be a gel. The aloe/kelp liquid works just fine as a liquid.