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Carboxyl Cannabinoids VS Decarboxylated Cannabinoids

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by green711, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. #1 green711, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2013
    The question is: Which cannabinoids are truly more beneficial, Carboxyl cannabinoids or Decarboxylated cannabinoids? I am raising this question to try and get to the bottom of this confusion.

    I will start by saying at the moment, from what i understand, My theory is that decarboxylated cannabinoids make the cannabis more medicinal and beneficial.

    Here's why:

    First off, Rick Simpson's Decarboxylated oil has cured tons of people, many of terminal cancer and other serious issues. He has stated that he treated over 5000 people with his oil and has NOT seen one condition he couldn't cure or treat phenomenally. That alone is amazing. Here is a link to many videos of proof if you want to see them. EATING CANNABIS OIL CURES CANCER AND MOST HEALTH PROBLEMS - YouTube

    Next, i found this post on another thread:

    Electron Microscopy of Cannabis:

    "The results of his alleged test show 4.73184% cannabinoids before decarboxylation, and 6.4918% after. That's an increase of about 43% total active (non carboxyl) cannabinoids. I consider that a huge improvement, not even taking into account the higher strength of the newly formed cannabinoids in the post-decarboxylation cannabis. Also, this figure of 43% is similar to what I and others have reported as the percieved increase in potency, around 35-40%."

    For this ^ the link posted no longer was available, but if it is true that cannabinoids can be increased by 43% after decarboxylation, that is a HUGE difference.

    Next, a very important reason: SYNERGY. The question is, are carboxyl cannabinoids synergistic? I don't think they are but i am not 100% sure on this. Decarboxylated oil allows all the Cannabinoids to work in synergy, plus the terpenoids and flavonoids, which could explain why the oil has such a strong healing power.

    This article has tons of excellent information.

    "Although having important biochemical properties in their
    own right, acid forms of phytocannabinoids are most commonly decarboxylated via heat to produce the more familiar
    neutral phytocannabinoids"

    Although this doesn't say much about carboxyl cannabinoids, no where in the article did i see anything about carboxyl cannabinoids being synergistic. Synergy seems to be a BIG reason why the oil is so medicinal.

    As we know, some people do not tolerate High THC well, but it is now known that High doses or even regular amounts of CBD are known to remove the negative effects from THC while still reaping all the benefits from both cannabinoids and their synergistic effects.

    The next idea for why decarboxylated oil is much more medicinal is 11-Hydroxy-THC. 11-OH-THC, is the main active metabolite of THC which is formed in the body after cannabis consumption. I have read before that this molecule is something like 4x stronger than Delta9-THC, but i don't know that for a fact. In this article it states, " In a variety of tests in different species, the 11-hydroxy metabolites have been reported to be more potent than the parent compounds" ( Delta 8-THC & Delta 9-THC), so it's definitely true that 11-hydroxy-THC is more potent.

    ''A child who used to have hundreds of seizures a day now goes days without having a seizure [using 12:1 CBD/THC Hemp juice after being on every medication Western Medicine had]
    Another patient of mine who is 2 or 3 years old had a brain stem tumor: after receiving 10 times the fatal exposure of radiation and a bone marrow transplant, she was sent home from hospice care. She was consuming up to 4 - 8 oz of raw cannabis juice per day - her MRI came, not only is the tumor gone, but the radiation damage, the scar tissue has completely reabsorbed in a year and a half, and it normally takes 5 - 6 years for that to reabsorb.'' Dr. Bill Courtney

    This shows how a child was cured of a brain tumor and more using cannabis/hemp juice. This is amazing to hear but notice how it is stated that the healing took 1 and 1/2 years. The patient had lots of Radiation damage too which of course makes the healing process longer, but it does seem a bit long compared to the oil. Let me explain-

    Rick Simpson has cured many people and says ingesting 60 grams of his oil over 3 months or less will cure most serious cancers. He then says if damaged by chemo or radiation the patient can require 120-180 grams of oil over a longer period of time to undo all the damage and heal. My point is that i believe the oil has the potential to cure and heal damage much faster. If a patient took 180 grams of oil over the longest recommended period of time it would be 9 months total. But this is almost very unlikely because after a few weeks or months a very high tolerance can be built easily, which makes the effects of the oil much easier to deal with. Rick says he has had patients ingesting 1-2 grams of oil a day once the tolerance was built up, and still going about their daily activities with no interference. I will estimate the total amount of time to ingest 180 grams of oil for a badly damaged patient to be in 9 months (max) or less. This, compared to 1 & 1/2 years (18 months) is HALF the time. My point should be clear here.

    In conclusion: I am not knocking the potential of Raw cannabis juicing, i am just presenting a theory that appears to be true. Decarboxylated oil seems to have a much stronger healing power, than carboxyl cannabinoids. I am not presenting this as fact, because i could be wrong, but at the moment all hands seem to point to this conclusion.

    Feel free to discuss :D

    Also, "Very simply, when THC connects to the CB1 or CB2 cannabinoid receptor site on the cancer cell, it causes an increase in ceramide synthesis which drives cell death. A normal healthy cell does not produce ceramide in the presence of THC, thus is not affected by the cannabinoid." - Dennis Hill
  2. I've wondered that exactly a few times before, it might just be that the concentration of cannabinoids in the oil extract (decarboxylated) is much higher compared to juicing.

    If you do the math out, and say 500g of bud makes 2 oz of oil, and people can eventually take above 2 grams in a day when they build tolerance, that should come out to a little over a half an ounce of premium, grade A quality flower consumed per day, in extreme efficiency.

    When people juice they usually put in a lot of leaves and such, which are a lot lower in cannabinoid content, I don't have an estimate for that but I'm sure it's fairly decently lower in total potency that's consumed. There's also the possibility that, what you are trying to say is correct and perhaps the body simply deals with decarboxylated cannabinoids more efficiently, perhaps because it's harder to break down the cannabis in raw form?

    Either way, whoever consumed whichever method, it's going to be of great benefit, but if I had a serious health problem or illness such as cancer, I'd probably do both!

    Sweet post man
  3. Thank you man
    I wonder if anybody else has any info?
  4. - International Immunopharmacology - Unheated Cannabis sativa extracts and its major compound THC-acid have potential immuno-modulating properties not mediated by CB1 and CB2 receptor coupled pathways

  5. Yeah i read that one before, so they both function on different pathways, but i wish there was more detail. I really am interested in finding out if carboxyl cannabinoid acids are synergistic or not.
  6. #6 Asthmatic, Feb 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2013
    This could be a truly complex question with no one right answer. The big variable being the specific medical outcome any one patient needs relative to another. Just like some patients need CBD instead of THC or a designer blend of THC and CBD so with THC-A and CBD-A

    No one medicine or route of administration is right for all health issues.

    It could be further complicated by the physiological use the body puts the THC or THC-A to. We know that THC sequesters in fat and then slowly re-emerges into circulation for a few weeks after administration of the "last does".

    It is quite possible that the body may be incorporating THC-A into cell membranes in a similar manner to arachidonic acid, docosahexaenoic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid all of which form different substrates for our bodies native endocannabinoids. That is THC-A may be able to function more like an endocannabinoid and maintain a more or less stable dose level over time than the feast, famine cycle that occurs when we flood our bodies with a finished cannabinoid like THC.

    Other factors related to patient compliance with the therapy are also involved. Many patients do not want the intoxication that can be part of THC therapy but are compliant with THC-A therapy when they discover that intoxication is not as big an issue with that form of medication.

    I think we will find that each form of therapy will have a place in patient care.

    Here is a little more light reading: Effects of cannabinoids and cannabinoid-enriched Cannabis extracts on TRP channels and endocannabinoid metabolic enzymes:

    Edit: the above is long and involved. It will take some reading and re-reading before I get all I can from it but at least CBD-A has the synergy you are talking about in the original post.
  7. Dude, ..... Ummm . . . . . . . help.

    So the first sentence in "Key results:"
    So I go to wiki page for TRPV1. I see desensitization of TRPV1 helps reduce pain.

    2nd Key result:
    So I go to wiki page for TRPA1. I can't really tell what is going on here. I see it says TRPA1 antagonists are effective in blocking pain behaviors induced by inflammation . . . . but then you click on the link and it takes you to the agonists page. I see it has to do with the gut here.

    Uhhhhhh ..... Um. According to wiki TRPM8, cross-desensitization happens with Capsaicin, which desensitizes TRPV1, so maybe . . . . .:confused: It does say capsazepine is an antagonists.

    Hey wiki says TRPV2 is activated by CBD.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OK.


    I made it TO the introduction . . . . . . .


    (Sorry, I was bored :))
  8. where can i get hemp or the oil?
  9. A legal state of course. Many people have been confused because Rick often refers to cannabis oil as "hemp oil", but in stores of course cannabis oil isn't actually sold, it is hemp seed oil. Hemp seed oil has omega fatty acids which are good for you, but does not contain any cannabinoids therefore it will not cure.

    It is best to make the oil yourself if you can, it's quite simple and there are many videos on how to do it.

    Right now the only legal oil (besides in medical states) is from the site They sell CBD/hemp tinctures, but no THC or any other cannabinoids. I just ordered some myself and it seems to be a pretty good product for what it is, but in order to have an effect on a serious condition i bet tons of it would have to be used, so i can't recommend it alone for serious conditions like cancer, but at least there is something available for people who have no access to anything. That being said, the real oil is what is needed made from cannabis buds, which will contain all the cannabinoids, terpenoids, flavonoids.
  10. #10 Asthmatic, Feb 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2013
    I usually just read intro and discussion or conclusion (and conclusions?) and skim the middle. The document is introducing us to how the players on the team talk to each other and interact. Agonists are normally thought of by people who like their cannabimimetic compounds to be the good guys but "it aint necessarily so!" and yes THC and Capsaicin can both activate the same neuro-receptor in opposite ways and create a similar result. Lots of papers talk about it just not plainly enough for most of us to get it at that level. It is not even clear that Re Uptake Inhibitors are bad guys. Enter Tylenol which appears to metabolize into a CB-1 receptor re uptake inhibitor. Yet it helps some people with pain probably by freeing cannabinoids to circulate at higher concentrations and bind elsewhere. I don't remember if Tylenol also blocks CB-2 right now but if it doesn't then that would probably be the next step in the metabolic path for the circulating cannabinoid. It could well be that the reason Tylenol does not work for many of the pain patients on this board is that we lacked sufficient cannabinoids to be blocked by it to do us any good elsewhere in our bodies when we were trying to use it. By the time we find a source of the missing cannabinoids we have given up on the Tylenol and now our bodies may be in a better position for some of us to find medical benefit from it's function within the endocannabinoid system. Knowing what has gone wrong is key to fixing the issue.

    All of us who hang regularly on the Med. boards know that there is something out of balance in our endocannabinoid systems and that is why cannabis seems to help. In some cases it really does (cancer) in others the effects are palliative when we know they should be curative yet they don't appear to be across a broad number of patients. (Arthritis, Bone & Joint disease)

    We already know that system breakdown can happen in two places one genetic and the other dietary. This has been breaking my brain for a while now but when you do the logic all cannabimimetic compounds are really endocannabinoids. Most are necessary for health, the rest just seem to promote health. The only cannabimimetic compounds that are not endocannabinoids are the synthetics. Whether we appropriate them through dietary sources or any other form of contact including inhalation. Witness ß-caryophyllene and it's place in aroma therapy and diet as well as the evolution of those uses across the ages. Think about the members of the mint family that routinely appear in diet and herbal medicine.

    As we become more familiar with the points of failure in the system we will be able to make more intelligent decisions about which cannabinoids or related compounds within the metabolic path will provide the cure instead of the palliative treatment.

    For now the only thing we can do to help our endocannabinoid systems is to insure we are consuming adequate substrates are available in appropriate quantities as they are identified to us in a thoughtful and observant manner as it relates to our health.

    Yesterday Granny Storm Crow identified to GC Flax as a source of CBD. Knowing this allows me to readjust my asthma medicine to a flax seed oil carrier instead of hemp seed oil and boost the CBD in the medicine. I can eat a little more milled flax seed and a little less hemp seed butter improving the breadth of the endocannabinoids the medicine provides.
  11. #11 green711, Feb 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2013
    For cancer, Decarboxylated Oil (RSO) appears to be the best choice, and has been proven time and time again with RS's instructions that is works phenomenally.

    "THCA does not fit the CB-1 receptor that is required to send ceramide to the work of apoptosis.”

    First let’s look at what keeps cancer cells alive, then we will come back and examine how the cannabinoids CBD (cannabidiol) and THC (tetrahydrocannabinol) unravels cancer’s aliveness.

    In every cell there is a family of interconvertible sphingolipids that specifically manage the life and death of that cell. This profile of factors is called the “Sphingolipid Rheostat.” If ceramide (a signaling metabolite of sphingosine-1-phosphate) is high, then cell death (apoptosis) is imminent. If ceramide is low, the cell will be strong in its vitality.

    Very simply, when THC connects to the CB1 or CB2 cannabinoid receptor site on the cancer cell, it causes an increase in ceramide synthesis which drives cell death. A normal healthy cell does not produce ceramide in the presence of THC, thus is not affected by the cannabinoid.

    The cancer cell dies, not because of cytotoxic chemicals, but because of a tiny little shift in the mitochondria. Within most cells there is a cell nucleus, numerous mitochondria (hundreds to thousands), and various other organelles in the cytoplasm. The purpose of the mitochondria is to produce energy (ATP) for cell use. As ceramide starts to accumulate, turning up the Sphingolipid Rheostat, it increases the mitochondrial membrane pore permeability to cytochrome c, a critical protein in energy synthesis. Cytochrome c is pushed out of the mitochondria, killing the source of energy for the cell.

    Ceramide also causes genotoxic stress in the cancer cell nucleus generating a protein called p53, whose job it is to disrupt calcium metabolism in the mitochondria. If this weren’t enough, ceramide disrupts the cellular lysosome, the cell’s digestive system that provides nutrients for all cell functions. Ceramide, and other sphingolipids, actively inhibit pro-survival pathways in the cell leaving no possibility at all of cancer cell survival.

    The key to this process is the accumulation of ceramide in the system. This means taking therapeutic amounts of cannabinoid extract, steadily, over a period of time, keeping metabolic pressure on this cancer cell death pathway.

    How did this pathway come to be? Why is it that the body can take a simple plant enzyme and use it for healing in many different physiological systems? This endocannabinoid system exists in all animal life, just waiting for it’s matched exocannabinoid activator.

    This is interesting. Our own endocannabinoid system covers all cells and nerves; it is the messenger of information flowing between our immune system and the central nervous system (CNS). It is responsible for neuroprotection, and micro-manages the immune system. This is the primary control system that maintains homeostasis; our well being.

    Just out of curiosity, how does the work get done at the cellular level, and where does the body make the endocannabinoids? Here we see that endocannabinoids have their origin in nerve cells right at the synapse. When the body is compromised through illness or injury it calls insistently to the endocannabinoid system and directs the immune system to bring healing. If these homeostatic systems are weakened, it should be no surprise that exocannabinoids perform the same function. It helps the body in the most natural way possible.

    To see how this works we visualize the cannabinoid as a three dimensional molecule, where one part of the molecule is configured to fit the nerve or immune cell receptor site just like a key in a lock. There are at least two types of cannabinoid receptor sites, CB1 (CNS) and CB2 (immune). In general CB1 activates the CNS messaging system, and CB2 activates the immune system, but it’s much more complex than this. Both THC and anandamide activate both receptor sites. Other cannabinoids activate one or the other receptor sites.Among the strains of Cannabis, C. sativa tends toward the CB1 receptor, and C. indica tends toward CB2. So sativa is more neuroactive, and indica is more immunoactive. Another factor here is that sativa is dominated by THC cannabinoids, and indica is predominately CBD (cannabidiol).

    It is known that THC and CBD are biomimetic to anandamide, that is, the body can use both interchangeably. Thus, when stress, injury, or illness demand more from endogenous anandamide than can be produced by the body, its mimetic exocannabinoids are activated. If the stress is transitory, then the treatment can be transitory. If the demand is sustained, such as in cancer, then treatment needs to provide sustained pressure of the modulating agent on the homeostatic systems.

    Typically CBD gravitates to the densely packed CB2 receptors in the spleen, home to the body’s immune system. From there, immune cells seek out and destroy cancer cells. Interestingly, it has been shown that THC and CBD cannabinoids have the ability to kill cancer cells directly without going through immune intermediaries. THC and CBD hijack the lipoxygenase pathway to directly inhibit tumor growth. As a side note, it has been discovered that CBD inhibits anandamide reuptake. Here we see that cannabidiol helps the body preserve its own natural endocannabinoid by inhibiting the enzyme that breaks down anandamide.

    In 2006, researchers in Italy showed the specifics of how Cannabidiol (CBD) kills cancer. When CBD pairs with the cancer cell receptor CB-2 it stimulates what is known as the Caspase Cascade, that kills the cancer cell. First, let’s look at the nomenclature, then to how Caspase kills cancer. Caspase in an aggregate term for all cysteine-aspartic proteases. The protease part of this term comes from prote (from protein) and -ase (destroyer). Thus the caspases break down proteins and peptides in the moribund cell. This becomes obvious when we see caspase-3 referred to as the executioner. In the pathway of apoptosis, other caspases are brought in to complete the cascade.9

    Even when the cascade is done and all the cancer is gone, CBD is still at work healing the body. Its pairing at CB-2 also shuts down the Id-1 gene; a gene that allows metastatic lesions to form. Fundamentally this means that treatment with cannabinoids not only kills cancer through numerous simultaneous pathways, but prevents metastasis. What’s not to like. One researcher says this: CBD represents the first nontoxic exogenous agent that can significantly decrease Id-1 expression in metastatic carcinoma leading to the down-regulation of tumor aggressiveness.10

    This brief survey touches lightly on a few essential concepts. Mostly I would like to leave you with an appreciation that nature has designed the perfect medicine that fits exactly with our own immune system of receptors and signaling metabolites to provide rapid and complete immune response for systemic integrity and metabolic homeostasis.

    -Dennis Hill

    The Endocannabinoid System (ECS) started revealing itself to researchers in the 1940s and by the late ’60s the basic structure and functionality had been laid out. Today we know the ECS is a comprehensive system of biochemical modulators that maintain homeostasis in all body systems including the central and peripheral nervous systems, all organ systems, somatic tissues, and all metabolic biochemical systems, including the immune system.

    This homeostatic matrix is not a recent evolutionary twist just for humans; we Find the Endo cannabinoid System in every chordate creature for the last 500 million years. It is a fully mature biochemical technology that has maintained health and metabolic balance for most of the history of life itself.

    The two major interactive systems within the ECS are (1) the cannabinoid receptors that we find on all cell surfaces and neurological junctions and (2) the endocannabinoids that hit the receptors to trigger various metabolic processes. Looking at a cannabinoid receptor distribution map we see that CB1 receptors, that are most sensitive to anandamide, are found in the brain, spinal nerves, and peripheral nerves. CB2 receptors preferred by 2-arachidonoylglycerol (2-AG) are found largely in the immune system, primarily the spleen. A mix of CB1 and CB2 receptors are found throughout the rest of the body including the skeletal system. And yes, 2-AG or CBD will grow new trabecular bone.1 It is also useful to note that both anandamide and 2-AG can activate either CB1 or CB2 receptors.

    The nature of the endocannabinoids are functionally much like neurotransmitters, but structurally are eicosanoids in the family of signaling sphingolipids. These signaling cannabinoids keep track of metabolic systems all over the body. This information is shared with the nervous system and the immune system so that any imbalance is attended to. If the body is in chronic disease or emotional stress, the immune system can fall behind and lose control of compromised systems. It is here that phytocannabinoids can pitch in to support the stressed body in a return to health. The cannabis plant provides analogues of the body’s primary signaling cannabinoids. Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is mimetic to anandamide, and cannabidiol (CBD) is mimetic to 2-AG, and has the same affinity to CB1 and CB2 receptors; providing the body with additional support for the immune and endocannabinoid systems.

    Phytocannabinoids supercharge the body’s own Endocannabinoid System by amping up the response to demand from the immune signaling system in two modes of intervention: one, of course, is in bonding with the cannabinoid receptors; the other is in regulation of innumerable physiological processes, such as cannabinoid’s powerful neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory actions, quite apart from the receptor system. It is interesting to note here that the phytocannabinoids and related endocannabinoids are functionally similar, but structurally different. As noted above, anandamide and 2-AG are eicosanoids while THC and CBD are tricyclic terpenes.

    Let us look more closely at the two primary therapeutic cannabinoids, THC and CBD. The National Institutes of Health tell us that THC is the best known because of its signature psycho- tropic effect. This government report shows THC to be effective as an anti-cancer treatment, an appetite stimulant, analgesic, antiemetic, anxiolytic, and sedative.2

    CBD (cannabidiol) is a metabolic sibling of THC, in that they are alike in many ways but are also different in important properties. First we see that CBD has no psychotropic effects and there are few CB2 receptors in the brain and peripheral nerves. There appears to be a broader therapeutic profile associated with CBD, which is listed here: (see attachment)

    One of the most important health benefits of cannabinoids is their anti-inflammatory property. In this, they are strong modulators of the inflammatory cytokine cascade. Numerous disease states arise out of chronic inflammation; such as, depression, dementias including Alzheimer’s, cancer, arthritis and other autoimmune disorders, viral infection, HIV, brain injury, etc.

    Inflammatory cytokines can be activated by oxidative stress and disease states. Cannabinoids, being immunomodulators interrupt the cytokine inflammatory cascade so that local inflammation does not result in tissue pathology. Thus we are spared morbid or terminal illnesses.4
    If our own endocannabinoid system can maintain metabolic homeostasis and even cure serious disease, why are we plagued by illness? We know that the body produces only small amounts of anandamide and 2-AG; enough to maintain the body but not enough to overcome chronic stress, illness, injury, or malnutrition. Cannabis is the only plant we know of that produces phyto- cannabinoids that mimic our own endocannabinoids. One of the great benefits of this mimetic medicine is that cannabinoids are essentially natural to our biology and do no harm to our tissues and systems.

    It is well known that most diseases of aging are inflammatory in origin, thus making cannabis the best anti-aging supplement we could take to avoid arthritis, dementia, hypertension, diabetes, osteoporosis, and cancer. This is our key to good health and long life.

    Since it is such an important attribute, as well as being independent of the cannabinoid receptor system, let’s look a little deeper into the ability of cannabinoids to inhibit the inflammatory cytokine cascade. Inflammation is good for us, a little here, a little there; it brings T-cells and macrophages to infection sites. This is good. However, chronic inflammation can cause serious illness and death. How do phytocannabinoids rescue us from dreaded infirmities? When the call comes in to the immune system to send troops, the First thing to happen is that the immune system signals glial cells to produce cytokines. Once this cat is out of the bag, the process can go one of two ways.

    A) Killer cells clean up the infection and all is well.

    B) Cytokines can stimulate more cytokine production and cause many more cytokine receptors to awaken. Unchecked, this becomes a cytokine storm showing symptoms of swelling, redness, fatigue, and nausea; even death.

    Phytocannabinoids have the ability to suppress this inflammatory cytokine cascade by inhibiting glial cell production of the cytokines interferon or interleukin. Here we see the seeds of chronic inflammation dissolved by the modulation process of cannabinoids bringing homeostasis to systems out of balance. This is a good example of how cannabinoids normalize biological processes all throughout the body and allows us to keep that glow of well-being through a long and happy lifetime. (Bibliography)

    -Dennis Hill
  12. #12 Asthmatic, Feb 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2013
    Thanks A nice read. I would disagree with the statement

    "This endocannabinoid system exists in all animal life, just waiting for it’s matched exocannabinoid activator."

    Our endocannabinoid system is waiting for endocannabinoids not exocannabinoids.

    The evolution of the endocannabinoid system appears to have began at or near the point in history where our ancestors diverged from the sea squirt before plants or animals moved out of the oceans onto the land. Cannabis sativa is a newcomer to the endocannabinoid system along with the other land plants that produce cannabimimetic compounds. If so much of life, so many species were waiting for such specific cannabinoid compounds as THC found only in one plant for survival the web of life would come crashing down. Too many animals that depend on a functional endocannabinoid system would lack basic access to a critical neurotransmitter. The fact that Cannabis sativa produces such compounds is the result of after the fact evolutionary selective pressure applied by the species it evolved with, us among them pushing the plant to produce cannabinoids by enhancing the reproductive success and survival of the individual members of the species that produced the highest quantity of these chemicals over time.

    That and you're missing the fact that in nature a relatively small proportion of the available cannabis plant cannabinoids exist in their decarboxylated form and remain that way for a relatively short time before oxidizing to their next form. For THC that would follow the path

    THC-a -> THC -> CBN

    We generally take a hand in concentrating and in decarboxylating THC to a very unnaturally concentrated highly pure state when we use it to treat cancer. Generally we accomplish this by way of solvent extraction. A new process in this context that emerged since +/- the 1800's

    Other endocannabinoids are known to cause the same apoptic activity that THC causes including but not limited to Anandamide, Docosahexaenoyl Ethanolamide and Eicosapentaenoyl Ethanolamide. Other endogenous cannabimimetic compounds like Oleoylethanolamide, N-palmitoylethanolamide and N-stearoylethanolamine all appear to participate in this anti cancer activity and can be produced by the body from the same Omega-3 and Omega-6 fats that Anandamide, Docosahexaenoyl Ethanolamide and Eicosapentaenoyl Ethanolamide are metabolized from. They are considered endocannabinoids because our bodies make the cannabinoid from something else after consumption rather than consuming a cannabinoid ready for use.

    For an exocannabinoid to fulfill such a major role within the endocannabinoid system it needs to be nearly ubiquitous in the diet's of animals. So far ß-caryophyllene is the only cannabinoid known that is widely enough available within the food chain to be a candidate for such a role among chordate land animals. Alkylamides as a group may also be widely available enough to be added to the list but that data set is still emerging.

    All that said THC maybe the most convenient and accessible cannabinoid for cancer treatment today, a useful part of Gods Own Medicine, but whether it remains so for the next 20 years or we develop a better understanding of our endocannabinoids such that they replace THC in cancer treatment, only time will tell.

    All of the above named compounds have "synergy" with each other. The common path appears to be competition for the products that breakdown the cannabimimetic compounds once they have entered the neuroreceptor and transmitted their signal. Those products include Fatty Acid Amide Hydrolase (FAAH) and or Monoacylglycerol Lipases (MAGLs)
  13. I agree the endocannabinoid system is of course designed for endocannabinoids, but cannabis is definitely man's symbiotic plant :D
  14. yes! Cool huh?

  15. One thing though, Yes THC oxidizes into CBN but if a plant is properly harvested and left to dry out of the sunlight it can remain potent for quite a long time, even without modern day storage equipment. So even if speaking about cannabis being used thousands of years ago.. like the "holy anointing oil" a very highly concentrated oil could have been made. I believe the recipe for the "holy oil" was something like a pound of bud per 4 liters of olive oil or something extremely concentrated.

    I don't really understand what your point is with the "unnatural" statement. Taking in phytocannabinoids are really just supercharging the endocannabinoid system, and clearly at this point we have seen the amazing ability this oil has at healing. I highly doubt taking lots of omega fatty acids and relying on endocannabinoids can cure serious cancers, especially in todays toxic world. Saying it is "unnatural" is sort of like saying it is unnatural to juice tons of fruits and vegetables like the "gerson therapy", to gain lots of vitamins, minerals, and enzymes..etc. We are designed to use cannabinoids whether endo or exo.
  16. This is a good video on CBN [ame=]Cannabinoid Profile: Cannabinol - YouTube[/ame]

    CBN has alot of medicinal aspects, and is probably an important part of "Rick Simpson oil"

    Because of it's anti-inflammatory and sedative effects, + others etc.

    Test results for one recent oil tested were:

    95.51% THC, 1.54% CBD, 2.06% CBN.

    "CBN appears to stimulate osteocytes(Bone cells), and is being looked at for treatment for bone disorders like osteoporosis."

    Maybe it is something to look into more.

    Attached Files:

  17. #17 Asthmatic, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
    CBN is great. Being an oxidative breakdown product of THC the amount of CBN in any hash oil is a function of the age of the plant at harvest and how long it has sat around on the shelf oxidizing post harvest.

    As for the osteoporosis if it was as simple as cannabis I'd already be bragging about it fixing my bones. There is CBN in what I make & take but who knows how much. A home test kit that could sniff a pile of Cannabis and tell me what the cannabinoid composition of the pile is would be useful in working to control the THC:CBN ratio but we don't have any thing like that today.

    Since June 2011 I've been putting cannabinoids in my body at about 1/2 the cancer treatment dose. Roughly 15 gm a month of hash oil when I add all sources and methods together. Maybe a little less since I started on the endocannabinoids. Just can't/won't take that much hash oil any more, I don't like feeling that way & haven't since 1990. I O.D. from time to time and then feel really bad for a while. The only reason I put up with it at all is because it works better than the chemicals it replaced, otherwise I'd have nothing to do with it.

    Right now I'm betting on endocannabinoids and investing $$$$.$$ in substrate, not counting time & effort in exercise etc.... I need to wait another 6 months for my next bone density test before I make any adjustments to therapy. I'll suggest some blood work that could offer a preview about how the endocannabinoids are working next month to my diet Dr. but I have to leave the bet on the table long enough for the wheel to stop turning and the little white ball to fall into it's hole before I place my next bet. Treating osteoporosis is more like playing a chess game or maybe chicken than fighting cancer is. Feedback regarding treatment success or failure takes a much longer cycle to return an answer. It takes a steady hand at the wheel and nerves of steel to play chicken in such slow motion knowing that the car wont just turn when I spin the wheel. The turnover rate for bone is +/-3 times a year. Most people only test bone density every 2 years so testing at 1 year intervals is an accelerated schedule as it is. My MD has agreed to accelerating the testing schedule to give me more time to make more bets knowing I'm working aggressively on the issue right now.

    You bet your life on RSO and won.

    Right now today I'm betting my life on Endocannabinoids.

    Thankfully if I loose this bet I have the luxury of being able to bet again but my odds of winning will get worse with each new bet.

    If I win the bet the goal besides the health benefits I'm looking for is to get off the cannabis completely renew my passport and start traveling internationally again freed from the tons of crap I use to take for asthma, diabetes, high blood pressure, pain etc... and the prison that international borders form when your tied to a medicine your government says is not medicine. So far everything I'm expecting to improve is improving and I can see a clear well marked course to the finish line. The only question I have left is whether I can get free from the baggage of cannabis without going back to the chemicals I'm using cannabis to get away from. I still use cannabis for pain & asthma but the asthma is continuing to improve as the Omega-6 fats wash out of my system making room for more Omega-3 fats to replace them. Pain is continuing to go down in part because of the anti-inflammatory actions of the endocannabinoids my body is making from the Omega-3 fats known as EPA and DHA.
  18. #18 green711, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
    Yes and also i believe the amount of time heated is a major factor too. RS mentioned in one of his podcasts that he vaporized some of the oil once, and later collected the buildup from inside pieces of the vaporizer, and the oil was as much as 5-10x as potent as his regular oil and he couldn't believe how strong it was. If CBN is the main cannabinoid that is responsible for sedative effects this could be what was experienced.
  19. Well that is good to hear that you are improving overall i hope you do have a full recovery soon :) I really don't know much about osteoporosis, but that is great that the fatty acids are helping. All i know is basic stuff like taking vitamin D, vitamin k, calcium....but i'm sure you are already doing all you can. These are the things i really want to see determined in the future...which treatment is best for what health problem.

    Right now i am really just mainly focusing on what is pretty well known, and cancer being one of the most serious health issues, is known to be cured from RSO (which is why i am such a big advocate of course). Pretty much i just want to try and spread the best possible information that i can. I vaguely recall hearing a story about someone who treated with a bone disorder..but i can't quite recall the details. Although CBN may not produce the most pleasant effects, maybe it really could be a big help in bone disorders as mentioned in that video..who knows.

    One question, have you used RSO at all or tried it? I know you are opposed to using potentially hazardous solvents but maybe it is something to consider to be worth a shot. He did have his oil tested in israel and it was 100% pure. It's possible to get petroleum ether that has a very low bp like 30-40c.

    I just feel like there may be more science to these processes that is being missed at the moment because of lack of understanding or something.

    Just throwing ideas out there because I try to help anybody that i can. So maybe high CBN is worth a shot, or maybe even juicing the leaves if possible, have you tried raw form? I would do everything together if i could lol.
  20. My MD & I started with Calcium & Vit-D. There are issues with Vit-K that I can't remember tonight but she does not want to go there yet. I think it is a thin line between therapeutic and harmful or something similar to that.

    I like juicing but it is not practical in my situation because of supply side challenges. Working with raw Kief in my topical ointment is a partial work around to the supply side issue and the intoxication issue. When you see me hedge about whether I consider cannabis an endocannabinoid or not it is because of THC-a, juicing and the potential metabolic pathway THC-a could be following. We know it is incorporated into cellular membranes like the endocannabinoids are because they can test for it in hair and stuff. The question is how does our body handle it after that. I don't know that any one has looked at the question in the right way to truly know the answer yet but it could be that I've just not read the right paper to see the right answer to the right question.

    I've used RSO, BHO, and hash oil made with Hexane during 2011. I started making my own hash oil to get away from those solvents, Hexane was the last straw for me on those lines. Butane is the only one I see any value in from the above list, I know how but wont. Even if all of the petrochemicals are out of the medicine I don't want the exposure I would get making medicine that way or the brown field / Eco. harm caused by doing it. I have grand children. My health and comfort is secondary to their health and well being. I'd rather die today than F_ _ _K things up for them in the future by contributing in that way to the mess we have made here so far.

    High CBN is worth more than a shot but it wont make it possible for me travel safely internationally. CBN like CBD helps treat pain with less intoxication and that would be a good enough thing to catch my interest on it's own.

    I have no shortage of ideas, what I lack is a laboratory and test subjects, I'm the only lab rat I have to test things on and it takes time to run the tests.

    What I lack is time, not access to knowledge. I work for a big healthcare system and have institutional access to knowledge as well as a group of sympathetic MD's who can read this message at any time. They know my screen name and what the URL is to my blog and this board. They are tickled pink with the improvement cannabis has made in my health and confused by my dissatisfaction with its limitations.

    I want a cure like you got for your cancer. I expect that if I can reverse my osteoporosis I will be reversing my arthritis at the same time. The same bone growth factors signals & everything are at work in both parts of the bone. Treatment without reversal of the disease process is unsatisfactory.

    The same for asthma. If Clinical Cannabinoid Decency is the underlying disorder that is common to autoimmune diseases then I have no reason to expect anything less than a full cure if I can set my endocannabinoid house in order and I'm 99.99% sure I understand what to do, I just have to knuckle down and do it. Which brings us back to time. It takes time to replace one endocannabinoid substrate with another and those substrates must be consumed in a balanced ratio. The only open question is what is the right ratio. the choices are:

    1:1 ARA:EPA+DHA
    1:1:1 ARA:EPA:DHA

    The cool part is that both should work, 1 will just work better than the other.

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