canna nutrients without calmag?

That's it right there mang, there is no "optimum level" only a range we can work with..Find that yourself and NOT what the hydro CO's tell you is optimum, especially adding non-essentials w/o knowing how to use them...
End of the day it's whatever floats your boat, and works in your garden, is all that matters..
Oh oh, and one more thing man then I'm done..You don't need molasses dude..COCO is NOT soil...Now i'm gonna go put on my flame suit..Bye for now..He he..
Just my couple pennies worth is all!..
Good luck!..

 

Simple, look up plant tissue analysis test results, and then based on that try and stick to those 'ratios', with whatever nute brand(s) you choose..Plants don't read labels..Ions are ions, supply them at a proper range(balanced diet), and your gals will/should produce for you..There is no 'one size fits all..
As far as high(er) 'P' in bloom, well that's indeed debatable..Look up 'The myth of high P.
While at it, look up the myth of low N in flower..ATM I'm running at ~3:1:4 N:K ratio elemental ppms, not the % shown on the bottles..That's what is working for me and my girls..YMMV, like everyone else's too..
There's lots of good info on this site, no doubt..But just like other sites, you just need to weed out the bad shit/info..

 

Oh and so we're clear..I'm not at all bashing this site..I love this site.and most of it's members..
Happy growing everyone!..

 

If I remember correctly, it was your post which I read that time where you said you were feeding vit b, etc etc, and only a little bit of the ec was made up of the actual base feed. If that's still the case, that's why you're having problems. I'd need to see pictures with some more info on the grow and I'm 100% sure we could get it right.

Again, I'd have to see that. It could be many things and even if you're sure in your judgement, it's always better to get that opinion confirmed.

Mate, like I say, if you want, no problem. I'm sure you can turn them round and just generally get a better system and principles under your belt which you can take forward and will give you a good foundation.

 

967, I'm Just looking at your flowering plants there mate and you know what, they look nice. You should be proud of those little ladies. The paling you've got going on on some of the mid to lower fan leaves is really no big deal at all. It's a lot better to see your leaves like that and your buds nice, than deep dark green foliage and leafy bud.

When I look at that, I can't figure out why you would have problems in veg?? Doesn't make sense. Veg is the easy part. At least you're getting the main bit right by the looks of things man. Nice

 

I agree with most of this. A simple nute regime and a pk boost to alter your ratio for flowering is all you should ever need. Any extras on top of that are mostly only ever going to be of novelty value to the grower; a placebo to make him/her think they're doing something nice for the plants.

With regards this bit : "The other guys make it sound like if your nutrient program isn't perfect for your water and your plants then there is something wrong with those nutes."

If this is a reference to what I said earlier, then that's not what I mean. What I said was based on your submission that there is no iron supply using canna + soft water. If this is the case then it would always make more sense to use a nutrient with a balanced wholesome profile rather than trying to alter one which isn't using with specific elements/products, especially if you're not 100% sure it was a deficiency in the first place and haven't had it confirmed.

I don't know about the US, but all nutes in Europe come in soft and hard water formulations. Not everyone's tap water is the same, but that has no bearing on anything. If your water is really poor quality then obviously no nutrient will correct that and it's a filter job for you. If it's soft, choose a good soft water nutrient which has enough of everything. There are plenty out there. Contrary to what you're saying, I'd say most nutes are a one size fits all product with only those unlucky to have a really poor water supply the exceptions.

 

It is too bad you cannot fully commit and give Canna an honest run for it's money, but I understand. We have all been in your boat at one time or another, trying to use up all these supplements that were sold as the think "we had to have." You're not in bad shape though, I have actually done a Canna+Off-Brand grow before, replacing their supplements with less expensive alternatives, and it all went fine.

That 0-10-10 Liquid KoolBloom will actually work as a 5x concentrate replacement for the 0-2-1 Cannazym. The additional K+ it contains won't hurt anything. Use it at 2ml/gallon in place of 10ml/gallon of the Cannazym.

Understanding nutrient ratios, and how many ppm we're getting at the minimum from each ml out of the bottle for each element, is very important for growers who use more than one bottled nutrient of anything at any time. A large population of growers use more than one bottle but the knowledge of how to do this effectively is surprisingly absent.

Many people supplement incorrectly. This only gives supplements a bad name when it is grower error and misuse that causes the most problems. I try to share the knowledge I have, not as a rule for people to live by, but as another tool in the garage for tinkering.

With Canna, and their specific ratios, they work great in vegetative growth, and actually work better with aged/used coco in the second or third round as the coir begins to decomp and release potassium. This is the reason for Canna's reduced K levels, they expect the coco to break down during veg which will free up K+ ions for flowering. The real world experience is that it takes more like 4-6 months for this break down to reach any noticeable effect. H&G instead rely on a really funky series of products in fresh coco with a higher potassium level. Each system works, but understanding how and why they work the way they do helps us as growers apply our effort appropriately.

The Canna Coco 5-4-3 with the 4.5% Calcium and 1.5% Magnesium does a fantastic a job with the right water (Filtered+0.2ec of Ca-Ma w/ Fe is great) right up to the transition to flowering. That's when it is time to cut back on the base and include the bloom supplement.

When the base is cut back to reduce the Nitrogen and Calcium for flowering the Magnesium ppm suffers as well. This is what makes having a little epsom salt around (like 1/2tsp per 20L) a good idea to keep this important element available when it is in higher demand through budding.

It is very simple and easy to know what is going into the media, but it can be tricky to know what the media has retained. Runoff helps remove the residuals and with a fertilizer like Canna I found 20% runoff with the aggressive feed schedules to be important to maintain in order to avoid buildup in the media.

Not over feeding is always better than unnecessary runoff or flushing, so use the guidelines and tools at your disposal like the meter readings, ppm calculations, and brand feeding suggestions, when using an unfamiliar product to ensure you're not accidentally using too much of it in combination with your base.

It is always better to error on the side of caution. Reducing the daily feed level in response to detected buildup is important even with a little extra regular runoff. Even more so when including off-brand supplements as replacements. Runoff isn't a guarantee of anything, but it can help protect growers who aren't quite as quick to detect nutritional problems.

10% runoff might be 200ml per planter. Which makes 20% runoff only 400ml. That extra 200ml of runoff buys me peace of mind in knowing that the plant isn't sitting in coco that has been overcharged with the built up "leftovers" from a slightly imbalanced NPK ratio; even if my EC is perfect. This also gives me better understanding of what the plant has access to, in a conceptual way, and allows for tuning with the supplements from grow to grow.

The buds look a little small but the plants don't look unhealthy. From your description it sounds like they are at the end of their life, so the yellowing of the leaves is to be expected. I don't see much/any necrosis which means you didn't overfeed them. The factors to consider here would be the age/wattage of your light source, the typical harvest for this phenotype, the age of the plants in flowering, the environmental variables, and possible light leaks, any of which could have contributed.

Clones have a tendency to look funky for a bit but it seems like you are familiar with that. Monster cropped clones from flowering branches are interesting. They definitely take a bit to get situated but they will take off soon. Watch out for really woody stems from them.

It is because all systems are designed with some expectation of what we are going to be adding their product to. Whether it is tap or filtered water, whether there are other supplements associated with the base, and what the media may contain. So every brand and line will start with a different NPK ratio than they will finish with. The manufacturer is, in many ways, blindly guessing at what to make their starting ratio for this final mixture to be ideal for growing with.

By examining the suggested use from feeding charts from a variety of nutrient manufacturers, and calculating in all their additives through the grow, I saw similarities between all of them in their final suggested NPK numbers. The data from all of these different systems pointed to a pretty specific range for each element through the grow. By applying this general guideline a grower can then use really any nutrient program they want without a feeding guide by trying to keep their NPK within these ranges.

This is basically what I go by when it comes to calculated minimums.

Nitrogen: Peaks around 140 to 180ppm during veg. Hangs around 90 to 100ppm during the transition. Drops to 50 to 60ppm during later bloom.

Phosphorus: Peaks around 30 to 40ppm during veg. Start bloom around 60ppm. Top out around 90 to 100ppm during peak bloom.

Potassium: Runs around 100ppm through veg. Bloom it can pick up to 150 at the transition and then move as high as 300ppm for the hogs in higher temperatures, but usually peaks around 220 to 240ppm.

Calcium: Usually about 10% of the ppm below Nitrogen throughout the entire grow. When Nitrogen is 100ppm Calcium should be around 90, but this depends on the hardness of your water a little. Don't over use Calcium after vegetative growth.

Magnesium: Peaks in veg around 30ppm, I like 40 to 50ppm at the transition and peak around 65ppm in bloom for the strains that need it, but 50 to 60ppm is a good range as a top out.

I know it isn't available to you but this is why I like CNS17 Coco/Soil. The 3-1-2 Grow, 2-2-3 Bloom, and 1-5-4 Ripe are just so well dialed for Cannabis and Coco it's almost idiot proof, especially because their feed guide is well made also.

This link might help provide more insight into these levels and what other people have found for themselves.
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

I posted some of those tissue analysis a while back in Ed's coco thread (somewhere around midway through, maybe August 2011), they are great to have and cheecha is dead on.

A 3:1:4 NPK ratio (by ppm) might be something like 90N:30P:120K, It's a really small amount of Phosphorus for sure but that is up to the grower to decide what they want to use. I am familiar with the "myth" threads. The low-P people use around 40 to 60ppm of Phosphorus at their peaks. I think what they advocate most strongly against are those crazy 150ppm+ Phosphorus boosts people do.

I try to suggest moderation in all things. Be smart, know when and how to supplement a base system and what you are doing (or if you even need to be for starters).

 

Well depending upon gene and time from the very beginning till end would make 3.5 a great figure or one that says back to the drawing boards! You might of mention it but kind of like not looking right now its just a thought crossing my feeble mind as it is right now.

 

The buds aren't small, the colour of the leaves has nothing to do with the proximity to crop time, necrosis would have nothing to do with over feeding, and light leaks could not contribute to anything specific to those pictures.

Mate, for someone who writes incredibly long posts about nutrient profiles etc, your basic knowledge of these plants is terrible.

 

Yea, 3.5 still a good number, some genes are just not great producers but that amount of production should keep you in med's so great job!

 

From the grower:

False

From Marijuana Grow Guide - Marijuana Botany: Cannabis Maturation and Harvesting

False

From http://pep.wsu.edu/hortsense/script...bleName=Cultural&categoryID=11&problemID=3006

False

From http://www.ag.auburn.edu/hort/landscape/lightduration.html

False

False. My knowledge is apparently shared by botanists, you know, plant scientists. Strange that people can go to school for 6 years, get a doctorate, when there is nothing to know or study than "what the plant looks like."

I had to respond to this one last thing before officially ignoring you. You have been exposed for what you are. Links and quotes from people wiser than I so that if you'd like to retort then you can address the quotes and their authors rather than myself.

 

There will be no need for me to address anyone except you. The information you have quoted is not wrong in any way and is written by intelligent people who, unlike you, have actually studied their subject and, most importantly, understand it.

You've taken every single piece of information in that above post and wrongly applied it as you see fit. Like a kid sticking the round peg through the square hole just because it goes, you've done nothing there but highlight how little you understand about what these botanists are actually trying to explain and whether or not it applies how you would like it to. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but it doesn't. None of it.

I hope when people read this thread and more like it that they can understand how little a grasp you've got of even the very basics, let alone the more advanced elements.

I will explain every single thing in that post to you, in a way which maybe you can understand, because it is very clear to me that as much as you want to make out like you're a quantum physicist, you've got zero idea of how little any of that information pertains to an indoor grow and to this grow in particular. If you took the time to understand the basics, your hands on ability would be far superior to what it is.


First, we talk about senescence, and the difference between indoor and outdoor grows. This is ground level basics and does not need a botany qualification. Every grower should know this and I imagine most do.

You quote: " As the pistillate plant senesces, the leaves turn yellow and drop, along with the remaining mature seeds. The rest of the plant eventually dies and decomposes.
"

Yes. This applies to plants in the wild.

Senescence is aging; the slow death of the plant. In the wild as the seasons change the plant's source of food diminishes the foliage will become yellow and the plant will dies. This has no relation whatsoever to cannabis in an indoor environment.

In an indoor grow the nutritional needs of the plant are met by the grower and are determined how the grower sees fit. Some growers like to allow the nitrogen to be used up (metabolised) by the plant and will happily watch their grow yellow, like it would in the wild. They believe the taste is improved if the plant used up its nutrient stores and so follow this practice.

Others prefer to keep their plant green right til the end. They do this easily by simply maintaining the feeds with the right proportion of nitrogen to keep the plant green. This is Nitrogen's primary function. They believe that starving the plant slows its metabolism and therefore something will be lost. So they allow their plant to remain green throughout the grow.

Now I'm not going to give an opinion on this, because that's not what I'm here for and besides, I'm not sure where I stand on it to be honest.

What I do know is that you said it is simply to be "expected".
But, unless it is the grower's decision, then it is absolutely 100% not.
Unlike in the wild, the indoor grower determines what the plant looks like and when, and it really is as simple as that. If the grower did not want his grow to be yellow, if that was not what he was happy with, then the grower needs to understand how to do whatever it is which will give him more control over proceedings.

You control the colour of your plants in an indoor grow and the proximity to harvest date has absolutely nothing to do with it.


And now that one's out the way. Let's talk about light cycles. Again, in a way which is easy to understand.

You quote: "Interruption of the dark period during short days (long nights) with red light stops the reversion of Pfr730 to Pr660 and converts Pr660 to Pfr730. This prevent the level of Pfr730 from dropping below the critical Pfr730 level and, therefore, inhibits flowering in short-day plants... Armed with this understanding, equipment and procedures have been developed to manipulate photoperiod so that photoperiodic plants can be flowered or kept vegetative at any time during the year... Photosynthesis requires high light intensities for growth. In contrast, photoperiodism is controlled by very low light intensities and short periods of lighting. When natural photoperiods are short, night interruption lighting (night-break lighting) is used to... prevent flowering in short day plants. "

Now, for those who, understandably, don't have a clue what half of that means, what they're basically saying is that switching on your lights during your 12/12 period will prevent your plant entering into flower mode.

More specifically, it might apply to those people who want to bring their light cycle down, without their plants entering into flower mode.

For example, you could have a plant on 12hrs light and 12hrs dark over a 24 hour period, but still not let it flower. How do you do that? Well, give it 6 hours of light, 6 hours of dark, and so on. I haven't tried it myself, but the theory is obvious.

Again, these are things a lot of growers already know about. Again, they in no way shape or form apply in the way you are putting forward.

A light leak would evidence itself in many ways. None of which are evident in this grow. Once again, these are basics every grower should know and be aware of. A light leak which was serious enough to affect a grow would show itself in the form of revegging, or, in the case of a full flowering plant, stems protruding from the bud or the bud elongating in a very clear and distinct way. These signs can also be caused by nitrogen toxicity and light stress, but without delving deeper, that's the basic outline.

Like I say, what you have quoted is referring to a full on interruption of flower, to the point where flowering ceases completely. None of this is pertinent in any way to the grow and in no way does the photo show any form of light stress, let alone that level of disturbance.


And, finally, let's understand what I said about necrosis. (there might be more to sift through but this is all my willpower will allow)

Necrosis: dead... that's what it means.

In this hobby of ours necrosis is usually a reference to a part of a plant which has begun to consume expendable parts of itself to provide nutrition for it's main purpose. This is why leaves pale and die; the plant is drawing nutrients from it's own foliage to sustain itself. first the leaf goes pale, if food isn't given, the leaf will be sacrificed and, as part of that process, little black spots will appear on it. This is necrosis. We usually just call burn burn. But hey ho, that's not important and each to their own on that one.

Technically, although any part of the plant which is dead, by whatever means, could be defined as necrosis, the means by which it could come about are vitally important.

So, I said "necrosis would have nothing to do with over feeding"

The operative word being would. Necrosis in this case - the picture we were discussing, would have nothing to do with over feeding.

If any form of necrosis was to show on this plant it would be the result of the plant consuming its last stores of nitrogen, and would have nothing at all to do with over feeding, unless you're being really flexible (lazy) and including tip burn.

I hope that clears that up in a way you can understand. I also hope it helps others to understand some things a little bit more.

Ultimately, you're a beginner trying to sound like an expert. I've seen a hundred like you and I'm sure I'll see a lot more down the line. I sincerely hope people aren't bought by it all because they'll lose all the fun of growing, and all to end up with results no better than your own.

Your theories and science aren't science at all, and they've landed you in trouble way too often for a grower of any repute to be any less than ashamed of. The truth is, the vast majority of people can't complicate and bog themselves down with tiny details the way you do and still get good results consistently, and you are one of that majority. If you weren't so arrogant you'd step back and question what you don't know, rather than lying about what you do.

Your hands on results are all that matter in this trade brother, and the sooner you learn that the better for nobody more than yourself. Learn the basics, then proceed.

 

We need to bring this disscussion down a notch here. We are just talking about growing a plant and what nutes to use, not something really important -

Like the Robert Patterson/Kristen Stewart break-up OMG- the humanity!!!

Now that I hope you are laughing...

You are just growing a plant, millions of people do this everyday with good results. Use any frickin nutes you can find local, follow the feeding schedule, and, and, and... if you seem to need Cal Mag, add it!

Done.

 

You can stick with the plain water. You could also use the Fulvic acid you were talking about right now without any harm. <1ml per gallon is fine, and will help loose up residual salts. Don't worry about runoff until you're about to harvest. I would probably give them a good final flushing and let the coco dry out over the next few days, then harvest.

When does the next round begin? Have you set a purchase by date for your new base nutrient program?