There are several verses in the Koran that also praise Jews and Christians but i guess you choose to ignore them.. Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed to you, Muhammad), and those who are Jews and Christians and Sabaeans; whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does right, surely their reward is with their Lord, and there will come no fear upon them neither will they grieve (Al-Baqarah 2:62) For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down (Al-Hajj 22:40) There is no compulsion in religion (Al-Baqarah 2:256) The Koran like that other bestseller the Bible gives mixed messages. At times the Koran spews hatred but then so does the Bible.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or the priest who represents the Lord your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purge from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12) You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 ) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed: they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13) If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10) When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.(Exodus 21:20-21)
The Bible (especially the old testament) is a story. Just because something happens IN the story doesn't mean that God is condoning/commanding that behavior. Laugh at smokinp's "examples". All from the Old Testament/Torah A couple of em from the same BOOK! Have a looksee at how many books are in the Bible and look where all of your examples came from.... The Old testament has 30+ books (different depending on your faith) and the New testament has 27 books.... yet ALL of your examples came from the first 5 books hmmm...... The bible has such DIVERSE hatred just spewing at the seams! I bet you can't find ANYTHING in the new testament that comes close to the carnage we're talking about in the Koran.
Lionel, Are the quotes that i listed not in the Bible ? Why do you feel the need to throw insults in most of your posts ? Can you not engage in a discussion without resorting to insults ?
You are obviously not familiar with the law of abrogation in islam, where (chronologically) later verses replace earlier verses if a contradiction is stumbled upon. So many of the Mecca verses (from the period where he was a rather unsuccessfull preacher, gathering only a small following over 13 years) which are quite tolerant, got replaced by the Medina verses (from the period where he became a ruler and warlord and until his death) which are rather intolerant. So that is why the Meccan verse of no compulsion in religion, is ignored due to the later Medina verses that say infidels and apostates must be killed if they either do not become muslims or if christian or jewish, do not accept dhimmitude. A status of second-class citizenship, where one is about as free as jews was in nazi germany prior to WW2. Also, the disingenious tu-quoque argument, that since atroceties are described in the bible as well, jewism and christianity must be as bad as islam, do not work on its merit. Again, neither jewism or christianity practice any of those verses, as opposed to how islam practice the atroceties and barbarism found in their sacred texts (koran, sunnah, hadiths). The judeo-christian cultural sphere, do not practice stoning of adulterers, death-penalties to apostates and critics, cutting of limbs for various offenses, hanging of gays or treat women as cattle. You can find support for such in the bible, true enough, but that is quite irrelevant as long as all major schools of judeo-christian theology and thought have defined those verses as void and not in accordance with current interpretation of their god. Unlike islam, where such verses are practiced upon daily, and no islamic school of theology (the four sunni and the one shia) have distanced themselves from them. This is why the islamic cultural sphere lives in abject misery, despite some countries having great wealth. The countries are organized around islamic principles, which essentially are totalitarian and feudal. Or in more modern terms, they follow the führer-principle, as set by Muhammed. Do also remember, no other current religion was founded by a warlord, pederast, genocidal psychopath. Only islam is. Buddha taught introspection, Jesus taught buddhism light in a jewish perspective, Jain taught preservation of life. Muhammed taught conquest, rape, pillage, keeping of slaves, murder and genocide. What a fantastic creed from a man muslims think is the perfect example, one to be followed by all muslims.
You tell me... have you ever READ a Bible? Do you even know what's in it? Or are you just taking the word of some internet site? Well, I don't think I've really directly insulted you... if you pick up a tone of dislike ....it's probably because I don't like you. Sure I can. However it's kind of a tricky thing to do when the person discussing is YOU. You don't read peoples' posts. You give shit to Zylark for providng specific examples that someone ELSE asked for? WTF man. No wonder you "feel" like people are insulting you. They probably just don't like interacting with you because it's a waste of time....
I think I understand this (considering, I'm the one who needs to go in for "Remedial Judaism" classes. I probably know more about cheese making than I do about religion at this point) (Looks at Zylarks post with interest) convert or die was also a Catholic thing, which is how my ancestors ended up in Romania.... There was no third option for reduced citizenship, though, you either converted or fled. Many Hispanics are finding out they are Jews. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/29/national/29religion.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano But Spain has, of course, got past that.Maybe. http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3719 There was a major, very active anti-gay movement in Oregon in the 90's which based their actions on Leviticus. They got measures on the ballot and were generally disruptive in a fairly well organized and funded way. Another, pro gay group wanted to enact all of Leviticus as a response, which was amusing (no shellfish, no blended cloth, must marry your dead brother's spouse, etc.) Lionel (or anybody with religious knowledge), what do you think of this site? If you have a minute to check it out... http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/Leviticus.php
I am familiar with the law of abrogation. The Koran is full of contradictions. Over 200 if i remember correctly. There are different schools of thought on this. Some Muslim clerics take the later verses which do preach a stronger and at times deeply hateful instruction as to mean that Allah revealed his teachings gradually over the 20 years or so that the Koran was written. They argue that he did not want to overwhelm Muslims and gradually revealed his message as Islam grew. (My theory is that the author was getting crazier with the power and influence he was attaining and was making it up as he went along. The same thing could be said about the Bible.) I have no time for the Koran or the Bible to be honest. I have read both and find them equally ridiculous. The point i was trying to make is that both books are full of hate and bile towards non believers or persons of different faiths. They both also at the same time preach a message of love and tolerance. Neither make any sense. There are moderate Muslims like there are moderate Christians. There are also extremists in both camps. To tar all followers of Islam as blood thirsty barbarians is wrong. It is not that long ago that Christians were burning people at the stake and dunking them in rivers to see if they were sorcerers. The west and east need to find a way to live together and tolerate each others beliefs. The other alternative is unthinkable unless you think slaughtering over 1 billion people is acceptable.
How did i give shit to Zylark exactly ? I asked a question. Where did i insult him ? Zylark does not from what i have seen need anyone to act as his boot boy especially you. He is more than capable of arguing his case. And thanks for the insults again.. Your uneducated piss poor attempt at trying to copy Sir Elliots style is tedious and annoying.. Elliot makes his arguments without resorting to insults for the most part. Every post i read from you is full of insults and childish name calling. Smoke some weed Lionel and chill the fuck out a bit.
I'm well aware. I don't condone genocide, but I also can't bring myself to condemn it in this case, either. From the perspective of the palestinians, hating jews is empirically consistent with the shit they have to deal with from day to day. Hamas and Hezballah are just opportunists who feed off of that anger. Ultimately, it's the Israelies and Americans who are responsible for the power and sway those groups hold. Think! If you had grown up watching loved ones brutally murdered by Chinese people, you would want to take up arms against Chinese people. Why is it so goddamned hard to see things in perspective?
So far my contention that "...appeasement and actual inviting this barbary to our midst, made me loose faith in the left. The left is a moral vaccuum, where everything is relative, and nothing is absolute." have been proven true in this thread. The usual leftist arguments of relativising the barbarsim of islam, supporting the fascist genocidal palestinian cause, and putting all blame for the conflict squarely on the west, have been forwarded with brazen carelessness for actual facts. Elegantly and conveniently forgetting 1400 years of islamic supremacist expansion. If the left was serious about it claims of supporting democracy, human rights and equality, it would not support islamo-fascists. Or to quote Karl Popper (behind much of the modern philosophy of science): "If we are uncritical we shall always find what we want: we shall look for, and find, confirmations, and we shall look away from, and not see, whatever might be dangerous to our pet theories." and ofcourse "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." The left have always been very uncritical of who it support, in the past various socialist and communist regimes, today islamists. And the largly leftist current paradigm of political correct multiculturalism, have extended tolerance to the intolerant. A policy that is ultimatly genocidal, and will only lead to great conflicts as obvious problems are sweeped under the carpet left to fester and grow until it all explodes in a violent backlash. A backlash called reality. Which brings me to the economic woes. This is particularly evident in europe. The left support all kinds of entitlement programs, an ever growing state-beurocracy and always increasing the drain on the private productive sector. This is simply not sustainable. The idea is good, that in times of unemployment, bad health or other bad-luck, one can for a shorter or longer period rely on support from the greater society. But it have escalated beyond all reasonable scale. Deficit after deficit, gaining ever larger public debt, whilst squeezing capital from the private sector, thus killing all competetiveness western industry might once have had in the international market. And all the time, despite growing budgets, the state and quality of infrastructure, health-care and education is deterioating. As an example, the police in Norway are screaming for more resources to handle the crime wave that have beset the nation after our borders was decided to be wide-open. What happened in the last fiscal period? 90% of new jobs in the police-force, was administrators. Civil-servant beurocrats. Much the same can be found in our health care, we need more nurses and doctors, we get more beurocrats. In education, we need more teachers and alumni to man profession oriented education, we get more beurocrats. And so on. What we really need, is less beurocrats, we need a smaller state that require less taxation, and we need to focus on those that do, not those that administrate.
Leftists (for the most part) don't support islamo-fascists, but unlike conservatives, at least make an attempt to understand where they come from. Hmm, muslims are mad. Couldn't have anything to do with being bombed, murdered, and raped by westerners for the past 100 years, no sir! LALALALLALALA I CANT HEAR YOU LALALALA
Zylarks post definitely materializes what I was trying to say, and I never meant that Muslims have a monopoly on violence. Surely the Christian faith has been responsible for some terrible things. The point is modern christianity does not teach violence whereas (as Zylark quite effectively pointed out) Islam does.
I'm not going to go back and re-read the thread to you. I'm not the court reporter.... Obviously, but that doesn't mean I can't give you a taste of your own medicine when you say something stupid. Anytime?? "copying his style".... you mean 'open discussion'? Ha, I know.... must be a weird concept for you.... True. Probably because he has thicker skin when it comes to moronic posts. Me on the other hand, do I treat stupid posts very well? nope. guilty. Slap the cuffs on and take me away..... Your reading my posts? I figured you ignored 90 percent of what others say. Maybe I'm wrong but you sure don't comment on the actual material of other people's posts. I'm chill as a cucumber baby! Nevertheless.. pretty good advice....Check this shit out:
Man I've got like 20+ posts to catch up on in this thread...and am wayy too baked to do that much reading. ANYWAYS, I think this deserves discussion: Is there any significance between the number "9111" or we could render it "9/11/01" and the Koran? Great question Sir Elliot. I wonder what Surah 9 vs 111 says (for those that don't know the Koran chapters are ordered by length, so the longest chapters are first and are quite long, with the shorter chapters towards the end). (Which makes the book especially difficult to read and comprehend. I advise using a commentary that places the Surahs in chronological order). Whadyaknow! Surah 9:111 is the verse that promises paradise for those that kill the unbeliebevers! Crazy! Read the book. It's a religion of peace-- peace through the sword, conquering your enemies, killing them, then raping their women and children and enslaving them.
I decided to read the Koran last night, and read a bit of a hunk of it then and there off the internet. No fewer than 30 times has it so far said about 'the Fire' and 'painful Doom' for 'unbelievers' and 'idoltars'. So, from what I've gathered, it is a religion based very, very heavily upon fear. However, there was some good shit there. 'Pay the poor due' springs to mind, and I even remember a verse saying something like "If in an argument with a Christian or a Jew, ask them to present evidence of why their faith is superior to yours." Presumably this doesn't apply to Muslims, but the sentiment is right. Basically, I don't think it's the BOOK to blame, the same way that gun nuts run around saying that the GUNS aren't to blame. To back this up, I compare the Bible and the Koran. Both instruct the reader to take the books very literally - the Bible repeatedly states that it is the 'word of God', that God is infallible, all knowing and all loving, that the 'word of God' cannot be wrong as God cannot be wrong and thus one must follow these 'words of God' literally, as God is always correct and thus his words are the truth/the way/the path etc. Haven't read that far into the Koran, but I gather it's a similar sentiment based on what Zylark has said. So, we have two books which, at least when they were written, have been designed to be taken literally. In this, they are the same. In their encouraging of blind faith, submission to authority and glorifications of graphic violence/the death penalty/keeping women inferior to men they are both the same. But they are just books. It's the people who decide what to make of the book. As I said, I'm reading the Koran and I won't pass judgement on this fully until I'm finished, but Koran doesn't seem any more intrinsically 'evil' than the Bible. Final point - the book is just a book. Mein Kampf is just a book too. It inspired the slaughter of millions upon millions of Jews and saw a terrible, terrible war come to fruition. Still, we shouldn't ban it, nor persecute those who read it for the sake of it. Those who read it literally and believe in the ideologies expounded in it should absolutely be considered questionable and potentially dangerous, but there's a difference between reading the book and being a raving Nazi. Same applies to the Koran, the Bible and any other book. You can read the Koran, you can even believe in Allah as expounded by the Koran - does that mean that you believe in slaughtering infidels and raping children? Only you can answer that, and if your answer is 'yes' then you're the equivalent of a raving Nazi in need of some help. If your answer is 'no' (the same way most Christians would answer 'no' if asked if they believe you should be killed for gathering sticks on the Sabbath), then you're all good.
I'm not going to go point for point with this, because I already have with Zylark, but I just have to say that I've lost any respect I could have had. The biggest problem is that you are letting your bias completely misinform people ignorant on the topic. 'Israel gave up Gaza'- Really? Do you know what that sounds like? 'Oh, the Israelis withdrew from the Gaza Strip and allowing them to build a society', which is incredibly far from the truth that is that Israel doesn't allow Palestinians from Gaza freedom of movement (much less than Palestinians from the West Bank), an air or seaport, no fishing industry or coastal water rights, and completely devastated Gaza City's infrastructure in the Gaza War. Oh, and still checkpoints galore. When you present a completely warped and distorted version of the horrible crisis that is the Gaza Strip, you lose all credibility. Second, don't make this out to be a fucking religious issue. Any idiot who knows anything about Middle Eastern politics knows that that isn't the case. Your argument is 'Palestinians are genocidal Jew-haters, and it is because they are Muslims!'. First, that completely throws out a century of history out the window, IMPORTANT to understanding. I mean, you kind of leave out 'Oh, well, there was the whole leveling Palestinian villages, annexing land that was originally completely Arab, etc etc etc (of course, you would somehow manage to deny what Israeli politicians and former members of the Irgun already admitted, but *whatever*)'. Second, that argument...just holds no merit. What is one of Israel's (former) best allies? Turkey. Hm, isn't that a decisively Muslim majority nation? ...Yes, yes it is. So why were they so willing to cooperate with Israel? Hm, maybe because your argument is shit and completely based on your own disgusting bigotry. And why did Turkish-Israeli relations cool? No, it isn't because all Turks of the world were born-again Muslims (or whatever you'd say), it is because the Turkish government found Israeli actions in Gaza that winter appalling. And I think it's really immature to boil down left vs right to Israeli vs Palestinian. I am very liberal, but I still love Israel. Not the government, and not a lot of its actions, and I mean I can't stand so much about it, but I still support the existence and am proud of it for a lot. I mean, yes, I support Palestinians too (no, not Hamas, no, not Fatah). Am I a stereotypical liberal because I feel that the conditions in the West Bank and Gaza are deplorable and that no population should be punished to such conditions due to political circumstances outside of their direct control? Well, I believe most liberals would agree on that point, but I think the whole world should, because it is no individuals fault in getting caught up in the tides of history and politics. So when I say, yes, I also support Palestinians, it's because I don't want an innocent little girl raised in Gaza without adequate nourishment, access to a decent education, or the ability to see her family that may live outside of her outdoor prison. That isn't being a crazy liberal, it is empathy and compassion for others, without condemning people that you've never met and wishing the best for them. I believe that the best for the Palestinian people will only come about with an equitable two state solution. Honestly, Zylark, you should be ashamed, for all the Palestinians who you slander without ever having met.