Aw crap, I'm a conservative...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Zylark, May 15, 2010.

  1. #1 Zylark, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
    Back in the days, I was a very idealist socialist. Still got those ideals, summarized in one word: equality.

    By equality I meant and still mean the freedom to do and say whatever one want as long as it do not result in undue harm to others. Basically to live and let live, do onto others and so on.

    But the left do no longer represent those ideals. The left, or liberal in US politics if you want, have moved from those individual ideals, towards group ideals. That won't do. If you do not have individual freedoms, you have no freedoms.

    What is worse, is that the left have allied themselves with the most vile despicable regimes on earth as it stands currently. I just can not understand it. How could those I thought stood for freedoms support those that stand for fascism?


    I am deeply concerned by how many in the west for example support the palestinian cause. I did too, until I started educating myself on the subject. What I found was disturbing.

    What I found was islam, and what I found in islam was nazism.

    There really is no other way to describe it. The palestinian agenda is genocide of the jews.

    But that is not all. This jew-hatred comes from islam, and islam have quite the few other little nags that should disturb any who is concerned about equality and human rights.

    Like say how women are treated as cattle in orthodox islam. Hanging of gays comes to mind. Death for apostates. Oh, and death to all that even dare to mock or criticise islam or muhammed, their pedophile warmongering genocidal example of the perfect man, to be followed by all good muslims.

    In short, the support of this, by means of appeasement and actual inviting this barbary to our midst, made me loose faith in the left. The left is a moral vaccuum, where everything is relative, and nothing is absolute.

    I think different. Freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, freedom of and from religion, those are absolute values. without them, we'd have no western society, no enlightenment, no science, no technology, no prosperity. We'd be as miserable as the muslim world is.

    That is not for me. And though I hold the ideals of the left, by neccessity I am now a de-facto conservative. Not for want, but due to the left beeing hypocrites that have abandoned their ideals. A left that have abandoned individual freedoms for group entitlement and cultural relativism.

    May the left find their way back to their roots. Of bettering the premises for your average Joe and Jane. Not the wayward course they are on now, making excuses for despicable fascists.
  2. i side with neither side when it comes to israel.

    the only people in israel i think should be killed is their government. i have nothing against the people. i have the same view with the american government.

    think about it. if a forigen soldier kicked in your door, told you that you have 30 minutes to pack up your shit and leave your home, and then you saw tanks and bulldozers right outside your house. what would you do? the only thing you could. pick up a rock and throw it at them. some have guns that they choose to use. and when they have to leave their home and have nowhere else to go, who offers them help? hamas. and thats where the nazism is, in the islamic militant groups.

    when all of this first started happening, the kids grew up around groups like hamas that preached hatred of jews and the west. so really, i blame the israeli government for their current problems. if they werent such greedy assholes they wouldnt be getting blown the fuck up.
  3. #3 Zylark, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
    Try this for a thought experiment:

    If the palestinians decided to end the armed conflict today, how would tomorrow look?

    If the Israelis decided to end the armed conflict today, how would tomorrow look?

    I feel silly for even asking the question. We all know what the result would be in either scenario.

    If the palestinians were to give up their armed struggle, there would be reconcilliation and peace tomorrow. If the Israelis decided to go pacifist, there would be genocide.

    That is the reality. Proclaimed and stated very publicly by Hamas and Hezbollah.

    The simple fact is, you, dc199, side with the genocidal fascist. The jew-haters, the theocratic totalitarians. And what makes it worse is, you think you are rooting for the underdog, and that makes it fair. Nevermind that the palestinians are not fighting for freedom. They are fighting for theocracy, dictatorship, barbarism.

    Israel gave up Gaza. What did that bring them? Gratitude? Nope, rockets. Killing civilians daily until the Israelis were forced to intervene.
  4. this kind of demonstrates how the political "spectrum" is more of a circle.
    I was raised as a conservative, simply because my parents realized where the left was going before I was born. but the titles of "liberal" and "conservative" are extremely relative to the society and the time period. for example, I believe that every human is created equally regardless of race and gender, 100 years ago, that would be a very liberal position to hold, now any human that deserves to live should hold this belief.
    another one, back in the 1800's every drug in existance was legal, and it was the liberal progressives that fought for prohibition, now ironically, it's the liberals who are characterizedd as fighting for drug legalization.

    in summery, the titles are completely relative, and it's only the ideals that really matter. I call myself a libertarian because I believe that the best possible society is one where individuals are the most free in as many forms as possible to do anything that doesn't infringe on the freedoms of others.
    Both true conservatives and pure liberals want the government to hold some (or total) control over individual freedoms
  5. Zylark, you may find this interesting-do pick it up if you can find a copy. MY LIFE (9780399116698): Golda Meir: Books

  6. Zylark, what would you propose to counter or even 'fix' this problem? Is nothing short of eliminating Islam the answer?

    I tend to think not. If you read the Bible, you'll find plenty of sick shit similar to the inhumane oppression featured in the Koran. There's plenty of sexist stuff, plenty of homophobic stuff, plenty about commiting genocide. So why aren't Christians running around slaying those who are seen working on the Sabbath?

    The answer, I believe, is that we live in very sleek, luxurious societies with essentially everything we want. Simply put, we're not desperate, starving or technologically deficient, and so we are not radicalised by fear of starvation, fear of militias/invasion, fear of getting ill and not being able to get treatment etc. We've basically been softened by our opulence, and as such people simply can't be fucked running around blowing shit up. We've got it too good to be roused to any kind of action.

    Like I say, Christians generally don't take the Bible as a serious source of guidance towards current affairs. Muslims do, hence Sharia law. If Muslims viewed the Koran in the way Christians generally view the Bible, they wouldn't run around acting upon the odious concepts found therein. And why do Christians generally reject the Bible as a literal source of guidance in the contemporary world?

    The answer, once again, is because religion is less relevant to us BECAUSE of our technology and our wealth. Not only do we not have the time to devote to 'God', we have hospitals, fire departments, schools etc readily available. They don't have such things, and so when someone gets sick and they recover, it's inclined to be interpreted as the will of Allah and a miracle... because people don't normally recover from being sick. See what I mean? It's our high living standard that has mellowed us out, and its their low living standard that keeps Islam very relevant to them. On top of that, the authority figures of Islam are pretty goddam fiery...

    So, if we accept this, then the solution is obvious - Pakistan/Afghanistan etc must undergo a cultural revolution and 'liberalisation' such as the West has done through our evolution of technology - and so, if we want Pakistan etc to undergo the same revolution and mellow out, they're going to need a greater standard of living so they can AFFORD to chill out.

    Sorry if this is rambling, I'm high off me tits right now... :p
  7. #7 Chaohinon, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
    Are you serious? I know you of all people are smarter than this.

    Palestinians promote violence against Israel, because...I dunno, it could be that they regularly witness women and toddlers being crushed under bulldozers, and stuff like that. I imagine that tends to bring out a little resentment.

    And sure, Islam = nazism, no argument from me. But the same applies to every other religion as well. Shit man, look at Judaism. Hebrew has at least a couple words (goyim? gentiles?) that specifically mean, "not a jew", with the connotation being, "inferior, subhuman".

    The only reason Islam seems like a particularly bad religion is because the west has continually bombed, raped, and pillaged the shit out of their land. They used to be far more socially advanced. But when you blow up a school, a church is going to go up in it's place - religiosity has a positive correlation with poverty and a lack of education.

    Just like with drug dealers in the west; the only reason they're so notoriously violent is because they have to be in order to have any chance of success, due to the state's restriction of individual choices. If the state stopped approaching drug users & manufacturers with violence, then they too would no longer need to use violence. Same goes for Muslims, and any other group that suffers constant oppression. If the rest of the world would stop raping Muslim regions, they'd be back up to snuff in no time.

    Uuuuuuhhh. It would be a nice gesture, I guess. But what happens when you don't stand up to a bully? He punches you in the nose and takes your lunch money. Except instead of taking your lunch money, Israel is more interested in bulldozing your home and shooting your child in the head.

  8. I presume you are speaking about political parties like labour in the UK and other so called socialist parties that have governed in Europe. They sold out their ideals for power.
    They are not socialists.
    They are a watered down, bastardized something for everybody version of their socialist roots.
  9. #9 Dronetek, May 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2010
    I used to be very liberal, but slowly noticed myself changing as I got older. I'm not conservative, but I'm definitely not a liberal anymore.

    First of all, have you seen the propaganda they feed kids over there? Its the most vile stuff I've ever seen and extremely hate filled. Its like programming created by Nazis or the KKK. Secondly, doesn't your logic work both ways? Israelis are constantly being blown up or killed by incoming artillery rockets. What do you expct people to do who are under constant bombardment?

    There is no Israeli charter that declares their goals to be the destruction of Palestine. On the other hand, the groups representing the Palestinians are pretty explicit about the annihilation of the Jews.
    Again, this is a stretch of the truth. Tell me, what was Osama and AQ doing in Somalia? What business did they have there? The truth is extremists Islam plays the victim card for people who will buy in to it. The KKk, skin heads and the Nazis did the exact same thing.
  10. Welcome to the club.

    Islam has been terrorizing the world for 1400 years. Why you europeans let the barbarians fill your continent for the last 40 years, I will never understand.

    How easily history is forgotten. What a disgrace to the sacrifices made by generations past in Spain, France, Vienna, Constantinople, and Lepanto. Today children are not even taught the names of Charles Martel or John Sobieski.

  11. You do realize that, for example, the charter of Hamas clearly states their goal is to eliminate all the Jews?

    You do realize that, for example, the founder of Hezballah was very clear that he wished Hezballah to finish the holocaust. It's why they co-operated with the Nazis in WW2.

    Killing the jews is the basic foundation of Hamas and Hezb'allah.
  12. Hey...

    Muslim cleric calls for 'Greater Iran'

    Let's give these guys Nukes. After all, just because they say they want to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel, and have plans to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel, and have tried relentlessly in the past to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel, and their religion demands that they kill all the Jews and destroy Israel, and the founder of their religion killed as many Jews as he could and tried to destroy Israel...

    It doesn't mean they actually want to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel. Right?

    And besides, it's all the rape victims fault she got raped, not the rapist. So really, it's all Israel's fault. If the jews just weren't so damn jewish none of this would be happening.

  13. Because the vast majority of Europeans are not hate filled bigoted racists.;)
  14. Israel does not represent judaism. It is the Jewish state, but when they talk about destruction of the Jewish state or Zionism I do not take it to mean destruction of the Jewish race.

    Doesn't Iran have the most Jews in the middle east after Israel?

  15. Iran used to have some 150-250,000 Jews. For some reason the number has dwindled down to less than 25,000 in recent years. I wonder why?

    I'm sure I must be confusing the desire to kill all jews in a specific geographic region with the desire to kill all jews in all geographic regions. My bad. Whoops. Good thing there are only a couple million jews in Israel, so no big whoop.
  16. I seriously doubt that Palestinians would really care too much about the destruction of the Jews if they had basic prospects of success to look forward to in their lives and the lives of their children. Palestinians might cling to Hamas only because they represent a force that's doing something to combat the encroachment of Israel. All that bullshit about 'death to Jews' or whatever is a very ugly thing, but represents only a symptom of a larger, systemic problem.

    Israel needs to stop building up their settlements in the West Bank; the demographics of the West Bank are Palestinian Muslim in the extreme. Israeli settlers are doing nothing more than throwing gasoline on the fire; it's incendiary and not constructive to the peace process in any way.

    There will always be extremists; Hamas is an extremist group and they will probably maintain their 'death to Israel' vitriol for many years, but to what degree the average Palestinian throws their support behind Hamas depends greatly on how Israel chooses to respond. Not surprisingly, bulldozing Palestinian homes does not dampen their rage all that much.
  17. But WHY do you doubt that?

    All the facts show otherwise.

    All the evidence shows otherwise.

    1400 years of Islamic Terrorism has shown otherwise.

    The Koran tells muslims to fight and kill the Jews.

    Mohammad killed Jews. And raped children.

    Your statement has absolutely no basis in fact and is contradicted by the facts. Under extreme pressure from Clinton at the end of his Presidency the Israelis offered the Palestinians 97% of what they had asked for, a contigious state, ports, air space control, etc, etc.

    Faced with a real peace proposal Arafat got up and left. He was only interested in killing Jews, not in peace.

    It may not be politically correct to look at reality, but denying reality gets you nowhere. That's why Israel final built a giant fence, to keep the barbarians out, and shockingly it worked.
  18. Oh, you mean the fact that Muslim extremist sentiment is not all that uncommon in countries like Palestine and the Sudan?

    Curiously enough Muslim-Americans and Muslim-Europeans rarely seem to be engaging in assaults on peaceful civilians or advocate the total annihilation of the state of Israel...

    Religious extremism is nothing more than a symptom of extreme economic and social hardship. The Christian bible suggests stoning prostitutes, unfaithful wives, gays, etc. but I don't see that going on that much in the developed Christian world. Does that connect the dots for you or do you just see that as evidence that Christianity is somehow a more inherently peaceful religion than Islam?

  19. Are you sure of that? Or have you been reading white-washed media reports?

    For example, France was gripped by widespread Islamic rioting a few years ago:
    France declares state of emergency - Europe, World - The Independent

    Where the 'Religion of Peace' went around celebrating its diversity by burning hundreds of cars a night for an extended period of time.

    Then off course, we have this triumph of diversity and multi-culturalism:


    Theo Van Gogh (yes related to THAT Van Gogh) the filmmker, dead on the street. Why? He said something bad about Islam.

    I could go on... and on... ad infinitum citing examples of the Islamic Reign of Terror across Europe, the genocidal statements of many of the leading Islamic 'moderates' etc.

    You may also find it helpful to read up on the epidemic of rapes in Sweeden and Norway. Our friends from the "religion of peace" are celebrating their diversity by raping women left and right 'in the name of Allah.' Of course this is not surprising since the Koran encourages raping women to show Islamic domination over them.

    Have you read the Koran?
  20. Well, there are millions of Muslims living in the US and Europe that aren't out and about slaughtering journalists, so I'm going to have to maintain my stance that Muslim extremists represent a minority group in terms of all followers of Islam.

    Edit: Oh, and I've read the bits of Koran I'm sure your fingertips are yearning to copy and paste... The thing about these books with invisible men in the sky is they all usually have some pretty absurd teachings. Go figure.

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