A very rational maybe even logical Existence Theory

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Insurgency, May 26, 2010.

  1. #1 Insurgency, May 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2010
    Truth is revealed to you when one's self is in a deep meditation state. Your senses are working at a minimal, and you do not have thoughts racing through your head. Your mind is back to its earliest form, not even close to our minds now.

    Now when you are not in a deep meditative state, you can also be asleep. Now since you are primitive man, you are only use to having one first person view, all the time. You do not have imagination yet, because you have just evolved from apes. Your mind is a brand new sponge, never been used. So when you are asleep, and your senses minimal or at rest, your mind has no idea what to do. Since you are a sponge, your dreams will be simple things like you getting food. This is why when animals dreams, for this instance a dog, run in their dreams, because they do not have the minds we have, but their brain and mind still dream when they are sleeping.

    Why do humans have such an evolved mind? Why don't ALL apes or animals have our minds, they experience things just like us?

    Humans have such an evolved mind, because we are the most adaptive. Humans populated the planet because we can a) adapt to climate, b) adapt to food source. Let me explain a little more. When the waters go bad, fish and reptiles would be doomed if they were pushed to colder weather. Our bodies are so perfectly built for adapting to climate. We had hair at the time to survive the slight upward migration climate change. We have hands with a working thumb, and we can run and climb. It is easier for us to escape being hunted. Ancient apes started the trend of adapting to food source. Pretty soon, global climate sifts (cause) would shrink the jungle home of the monkeys (effect) This would cause them to switch habitats and adapt to a new way of living.

    At one point, a group primitive men emerged. They have a change in body, because they were forced to adapt to a new environment. Now they began migrating, possibly searching for food. This is possibly when we could have discovered the ability to eat fish, and once fire was obtained, which would have allowed for new types of food to be consumed.Why is fire so important? The first time lightning made created fire, man didn't just go pick it up and instantly know to put it in some wood. He (they) would have saw it, most likely coward until ONE MAN was brave enough to at least walk next to it. He would have experienced heat and felt warmth, although he would have no idea what the hell it was or what this feeling was.

    Now, back to my dream topic. Once this homos experienced stuff like fire, they would have a new first person view. It is something out of there norm, it is different from their normal animal instincts. They would dream of this fire many nights, probably having similar dream as the other person. They could start having different dreams because they would have different ideas on how it came to be, because their minds can not truly say. We see lightning, they see flash of something. This could happened several times in wooded areas, which allowed them finally obtain this power.

    We now have fire, and know its hot on this limb of a tree we still live in, so we will collect more limbs, not branches or sticks because wtf are those words. With fire, we migrated the globe even more, but now we could survive in different caves in different areas, because we know this fire makes our body not shiver. (makes us warm)

    From there, it is a chain reaction. More adaptation to food, even more brain growth size. This is the start of the minds and brains we have now.

    Now, what does this all mean?

    cause and effect are very true. Before we harnessed fire, our universe was run on cause and effect. We are the difference, we broke away from the norm. We have created our own free will. Darwin's evolution theory is completely correct, but "we" were the ones who noticed it, NO other organism on this planet knew they evolved from some primitive organism.

    Now, here is the start to my opinion of this. This still does not explain how. My idea as of now, since we do not truthfully know how, is that our universe was created by something absolutely perfect; a deity, the "UNIverse", something. (im iffy on that issue). The universe runs on laws of physics, although it does not know this. They are only present when a conscious being notices the "laws of nature."

    I do believe we have souls, and we either become "one" with the first cause and effect, or our soul goes to another plane of existence. If we truly have free will, a "God" could have possibly given it to us. If that is the case, he started the universe and just let it play out, knowing at least one advanced conscious being like us would turn out. Because without any conscious beings, how would "god" know he exists?

    sorry, extremely high.
  2. #2 Insurgency, May 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2010
    Let me add,

    If a God does truly exist, He gave us this universe. He just let everything play out, allowing the universe to play out because he know at least one advanced conscious being would turn out. With an advanced conscious being like us, God knows he exists.

    The God, the universe, us. We have a creator, a blank slate, and a master piece. Without the creator, we have no blank slate and master piece. If we have no blank slate we have a creator but not a master piece. If we have no master piece, then there is no evidence of a blank slate and a creator.

    Also, Ancient tribes that worshiped the sun and the moon and things like volcanoes and the wind, were worshiping them because with their minds more developed, they were on the topic of causes and effects. They knew causes from the sun and moon effected things for life, they just didn't know how. They knew the effects of volcanoes, but they didnt know what caused them. They knew the effects of wind, they just did not know where wind came from.
  3. This might help you Anthropic principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Your post was very interesting and helped to open my mind, especially the bit with fire and breaking away from evolutionary trends.

    I recently watched a video about ([ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc5gIj3jz44]YouTube - The Singularity of Ray Kurzweil[/ame] (specifically @ 5:13)) how eventually man and machine will bond. If you pay attention to that chart it shows how, as species we've evolved biologically and technologically. Its interesting to think that one day, our creations will become one with us. We may even recreate ourselves as a new species.
  4. Cool post. I liked the end of it when you explained how we were the species to break free and even create the concept of evolution.
    I also like how you left the part about afterlife vague. By saying we have souls that may remain on another plane of existence, you could interpret that in many ways.
    It could be heaven, or another completely different plane of existence. You could even consider it death. We could die and exist, but in a way we cannot conceive. Where we don't exist in a form of matter at all.

    +rep for interesting post.
  5. On the topic of developed religion, it is the effects of our minds evolving more and more. As Trigs said, as we evolve our concept of God evolves. I believe that only when you devolve your religion, meaning go from your belief, down to the next level before your religion, continuing all the way down to the first forms of beliefs, you will know the true presence of God.

    As we evolved, we began understanding the causes. This in turn, has shaped God into many forms. Only when you go back to the state of mind (and acknowledging that you can never explain the ultimate cause of the ultimate effect) will one realize a presence of God exists.
  6. The fact that we ARE here makes ZERO sense. We can not prove Gods existence. Science will NEVER (that's right i said never) prove/disprove the existence of a "God" of some kind.

    "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was God."

    We're all familiar with that statement. "God" is not simple though, we can not just look at this and give a simple answer. The "Word" is not stories of God or anything of the sort, the Word is the Laws of the Universe, including Laws of cause and effect. In the beginning a "God" created the universe, which followed Laws, but until "we" existed, nothing knew of these "Words."

    "God created man in his image"

    Again, we are not created in the image of God, meaning we do not look like God or anything of the sort. "God" follows the Laws of the universe and he is ALSO outside the Laws of Physics. He created us to do the same. Our bodies follow these Laws, yet our advanced minds understand these laws, and we can create our own cause and effect relationships. "We", in a sense, can escape these Laws.

    Before our advanced minds, the universe was in a state of is. "We" have carried it beyond just is. With "us", the universe was, is, and will be.
  7. We exist because our universe is NOT perfect. Scientists predicted that at the big bang there would have been equal amounts of matter and anti matter which would have cancelled each other out and left nothing. Instead, we exist along with stars and galaxies which means that at the big bang things were not perfect. There was more matter than anti matter, or it just took a long time for the matter to turn into anti matter which backed up the amount of matter, creating the particles that compose us. We can ponder what happened before the big bang all day, but we will get nowhere. We can only analyze what happened after.

    I am not going to criticize your belief in a soul, but I would like to say that if God really exists then he/she would not need any conscious being to verify his/her existence. Supposedly God knows all.
  8. #8 Insurgency, May 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2010

    Is our universe not perfect? It runs on "Laws," yet somehow these laws are not perfect? Scientist "predicted," which is very important. Go back to my examples of volcanoes. Science can explain what causes volcanoes, which has advanced our knowledge of the effects of them. Now when it comes to the universe, in order to observe the cause, you must be able to observe it from the outside. Rationally, we can not do this.

    The Big Bang brings up the issue of "Simplicity to Complexity". What is simplicity? How do we know the universe was simple at the beginning? You can even name the Big Bang theory "God," because we do not know where it came from. "Complexity and Simplicity" are our words to describe existence. Let me use an example that we can fathom. Our bodies, we are so complex. Now as you are implying, complexity must come from simplicity. So if we break our bodies down to the simplicity, we are left with atoms, or different types of matter. Is matter simple? How is matter simple? It’s the building blocks for everything, yet how do these "simple" atoms know how to form complex beings?

    There is no simplicity in the universe. That word is only used on our perception.

    Did humans not need conscious to know of our existence? What is life without a conscious being there to understand it. This "God" of some sort, knows all, but maybe the universe is the way of this "God" knowing of his own existence. The universe and some form of "God or non conceivable idea" play hand in hand. Without the existence of us, the debate of a "creator" not existing is more logical.

    Think of it more along this idea. The Bible for instance is full of "existence" stories of many tribes. We can still debate if these people existed, but there is SOME form of proof, even if it is a .000000000000000000000001 chance. Without the Bible, we can argue that EVERY single person in the Bible never existed.
  9. Deeper and further fatbluntsyo

    Let the silence speak to you

    You will know what is true when the silence is the one talking

    Hush shush now empty the mind

    Deeper and further fatbluntsyo

    Deeper and further we go to grow our know
  10. You should read this article: Why We Exist: Matter Wins Battle Over Antimatter - Yahoo! News

    After you read that, watch this: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFjwXe-pXvM&feature=PlayList&p=5A4CC10A3263730E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=13]YouTube - Origin of the Universe - Stephen Hawking (1 of 5)[/ame]

    the video series on hawking is like an hour so watch when you have time.
  11. Sauch, would you mind telling me what makes something perfect?? Also, you are mistaken in believing that the physical manifestation of the Universe is God itself. In regards to the Trinity, the Universe is only "the Father". The universe is an EMANATION of God. If you have a bicycle without a pedal, it is incomplete and thus imperfect. The universe is not God Himself, God is the Absolute, the All, the Whole, the only COMPLETE being. It is much more likely that there are multiverses, however, these multiverses exist WITHIN something. The sum of the whole is what makes God perfect, and even things that appear to be chaotic indeed are very orderly.

    fatbluntsyo, I commend your post, there are only a select few points that I feel are not quite right, or should be elaborated on a bit further.

    As far as meditation/trance, it does not take us back to an undeveloped state, what it does is filters out the distractions of the awareness of the physical body, so that one may attach more to the Spirit, the etheric essence that makes the true us.

    Many people seem to think that lightening led to the discovery of fire. If this were the case, it would be necessary that man took the fire that originated from the lightening and kept it burning, because primitive man would not have been able to harness lightening to create fire at any time.

    The most likely case is that man was using primitive tools, and he struck stone against stone and it made a spark which landed in some brush, starting a fire. Man then attempted to recreate this and was successful. The light is more synonymous with human evolution than you may think. Before fire was harnessed, there was a period of time that man would have dreaded. The time when the sun went down, but man was still awake since he only needs 6-8 hours of sleep. With the harnessing of fire, man would have been able to gather around a fire at night time, the time when survival work was not performed and he was given time to THINK, and ponder upon the Mysteries of Nature. It is this time of intellectualizing that man would have begun to come up with deeper philosophies of the Nature of God. It is the thought and period of concentration that has allotted for mans various developments of philosophy/science/invention.

    Also, to find the true essence of God one need not try to go back to the beginning, because as I have said mans conception of God comes closer and closer to the truth. At some point man was much more beast than he was what we consider humans now. This is a result of the undeveloped soul and the planes of existence, being in the instinctive mind alone. No one will argue that chimpanzees are not self conscious the way we are, yet they still have intelligence in their instinctive mind to be able to learn and to use tools. Man has always been man, we did not evolve from a monkey, because tiger cannot evolve into a lion. However, there was a time when we were more animal, not having reached the self conscious mind yet. It is as the soul unfolds that we move to higher and higher planes of the existence of life, and as we are now on the 5th plane of the Intellectual Mind, though in the earlier stages, we are continually progressing towards the Spiritual Mind, where we will not only be able to understand the physical manifestation of the Universe, but the Mind will become advanced to being able to perceive the spiritual things. We are still in the physical manifestation of Mind as a whole right now, but our Minds will continue to develop, until things such as clairvoyance and psychokinesis will be common things among the race. The Golden Age so to speak. Many are mistaken in thinking this age is just a few years down the road, it is not however.

    We will all be alive for this golden age though and that is a truly glorious thing, at varying times during this period. I personally cannot wait :D
  12. #12 SauchBoss, May 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2010
    the meaningful rational abilities of us humans can only extend so far. speaking of time before the big bang is like asking for a point south of the south pole. it's just meaningless.

    Trismegistus, you say the universe is an emanation of God, but just as fatbluntsyo insinuated, we cannot claim to know where the supposed emanation of the universe emanated from because we live within the system and therefor cannot observe the cause. we can only observe the effect. Maybe the universe is simply an emanation of the Big Bang and nothing else.

    why can't you suspend judgement instead of coming to hasty conclusions so quickly?

    I supposed we should agree to disagree Trismegistus

    I respect your passion
  13. It's true we cannot comprehend the WHOLE because are are not the whole nor can we go outside of it. However our universe is not the whole, it is only a peice, and therfore it can be comprehended. It is only the Whole itself that we cannot comprehend in any way except how. It is indeed possible to "go outside" of our universe, though not in terms of the physical body. The Whole exists within us, and we have the potential to comprehend everything as if we were standing right underneath God looking at the glory of his creation, it is only God himself that we cannot comprehend until the merging of our individuality back into the Whole.

    I am not judging, but this is the 2nd time you referred to the Universe as imperfect, and I'm just curious how imperfect men can have any true concept of what perfection of such a complex manifestation could possibly be, myself included. One cannot know the standard of perfection until they have something perfect for comparison. Men of science do not have anything to compare our multiverse to in terms of it's perfection.
  14. If we are to compare the universe with Trinity then yes the Father is the universe. "Father" simply means creator. This "Father" gave birth to everything, all infinite space. The "Son" is "God" as well, but is very far from "Fatherly" status. The "Son" refers to the "time" before time, and even the Bible acknowledges that the Son created everything, or our infinite universe.

    Aren't these distractions the cause of our advanced developed mind?

    We could use your tool theory, we're neither right or wrong because we do not know how it played out. Personally, I think lightning was the start of it. If you want to use your tool theory, then we shall. After seeing lightning, they would see that "flash" of light. If they used tools, they could see a smaller "flash" but of course not as powerful. They could have thought "Flash brings fire"

  15. when i say perfect, i am referring to the traditional philosophical understanding of the term which is something "eternal and unchanging". by this understanding, the universe is not perfect. it is a dynamic system that is always in flux.

    what i have come to realize right now is that the confusion between our points of view lies in what Wittgenstein calls "language games." The meaning of the word perfect (for the way i am using it) is different than the perfect you are talking about. We are using similar language for different language games, but we are not recognizing that the meaning of what each of us says depends on the context of the language game.

    Language-game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  16. The universe is perfect in the same sense that we are perfect. The universe goes through evolution like we do, but of course a different type of evolution. That is the flux.

    I think you and I agree that language is man made. However, I have come to realize that we must use language to describe everything around us. Language allows for us to describe complexity, not perfection.
  18. exactly.

    When we describe our existence using philosophy, we must stay focused to only answer questions that deal with "That the universe exists." Our knowledge does not let us completely answer "Why or How the universe exists."

  19. So in a sense we become God? I came across this theory by Timothy Leary awhile back called the 8 circuit model of consciousness. You should especially look upon the final circuit. It basically says that the mind will become completely eliminated from the body and that "we" in a sense will become gods. And that angels, demons, gods may be us manipulating the universe completely outside space and time.

    Whats more interesting about the theory is that certain drugs activate certain circuits. Ketamine, dmt, and high doses of lsd and salvia may activate the circuit.

  20. Where do you get all your information from? Is it just your own philosophy? I'm really, really curious.

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