defoliating for HIGHER YIELDS

Discussion in 'Plant Training' started by ecsd, Sep 20, 2010.

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  1. are apples covered in photosynthesizing leaves like marijuana flowers are? Or tomatoes or Zucchini for that matter? What you are comparing here is apples to oranges, or in this case apples to weed:D
     
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  2. Yep and Double Yep! Agree completely with your technique. The results are in the pictures. Nice job and applaud your anathema approach! Reprep! I respect non-mainstream thinking and unconventional approaches to problem solving! In this case how to produce budz!

    Nice job dude!
     
  3. ecsd, cmon man, you gotta give props when copying someones exact post even if it is on a different forum. That being said, thanks for bringing this here, it is a very informative post.

    To everyone decrying defoliation as too stressful for the plant, and saying that fan leaves are the power-plant that drives bud-growth: Have a single one of you ever tried proper defoliation or are you making the classic mistake of denouncing an idea before experimenting with it?

    First off, let me say this: Fan leaves ARE power-plants that drive production, but they are not the only ones. To prove this point, simply glance at the picture in the OPs first post. Huge chunky buds without any fan-leaves to speak of.:eek: The leaves coming out of the buds, and even the buds themselves photosynthesize as well.

    My second admission is this: Clipping fan leaves off of a plant IS physically stressful to the plant. One should definitely weigh the consequences of defoliating, as it will slow down growth for a few days immediately after while the plant recovers from the trimming it got. This doesn't mean that it should be avoided like the plague, though. This is also something that should be done steadily throughout the veg process. If you jump straight into this during flower, your yields will suffer because of stress.

    LSTing, scrogging, topping, Fimming, supercropping and just about every other training technique are all just as stressful on a plant, and should be used responsibly to avoid over stress, but most of you have no problem with these methods.

    Marijuana is a unique plant that does some things most other plants don't. For instance, if you shine a light only on a lower bud-site and nowhere else, you will see that only that bud-site gets big and chunky, the other ones will not. The same thing happens when you shine light only on the top bud-sites. Only the top bud-sites produce quality buds, the rest are tiny popcorn buds. This is something that doesn't happen with apples, or tomatoes, or zucchini, so please, stop making that comparison!;)

    The reason that people like Jorge Cervantes say that defoliation isn't worth it, is that they almost always grow in the same style, and the way they grow, defoliation doesn't do any good. They pack in a bunch of plants and put 1000 watters over them. The light is so intense that even with all of the fan leaves, the lower buds still get adequate light. Because of this, the amount of stress caused by defoliating doesn't amount to enough gains to be worth doing. What they don't understand is that not everyone grows this way, and if you have a lot less light, then the stress caused by defoliating could definitely be worth it to get light to the lower bud-sites and get a more developed structure.

    The only way to know for sure is to try it for yourself. This isn't a magic trick, it's just training your plant to have the shape and structure that you want at the expense of setting it back a few days due to stress. Pretty much any training technique does the same thing. If your grow space is shaped in such a way that your plant grows to fill the space perfectly, and your lower buds are lighted properly without any training, then of course, don't train it! you don't need to! However, if you are like most people and you need to tweak and shape your plant to get it to fill your space properly, then defoliation is a great training method to use in conjunction with all of the others.
     
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  4. Seeing as how your name is "Scroggy," I am assuming that you are a supporter of the scrog method. Every time you bend a branch over in one of your scrogs, you are "mutilating and stressing your babies." Doing this stresses the plant, and for a couple of days it will slow the growth down until the tops aim back towards the light, and the plant recovers. Your goal here is to get an even distribution of light, and to not let any one cola rise up and shade the rest of them. Defoliation isn't as different as you think.

    The problem with your comment is that you do sound snotty, because you make it sound like this is the simplest concept ever, when in fact it is not. Please enlighten us: What part of basic plant biology and anatomy shows us that the increase in light to the lower flowers after defoliation is not worth the stressed caused by trimming the plant? I don't remember that chapter in BIO 101. This is a complex scenario that can only be proven or dis-proven through experimentation. I'm sure that in some scenarios the stress wouldn't be worth the gains, but in others it would be.

    Pulling fan leaves if you were trying to grow fan leaves would be an oxymoron, but since we are shooting for bud, this isn't an oxymoron at all. You're too caught up in what you've read somewhere, and need to experiment some more. When people first started throwing around the SCROG idea people who hadn't even tested it were denouncing it as a waste of time. If it wasn't for a few people who didn't give a shit what "the book" says, we wouldn't have any of the numerous methods people use.
     
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  5. I respect experienced growers, and I understand that people can get great results without defoliating. I never said that this should be a rule or something that must be done all of the time.
    I also understand that defoliating causes stress. However, for some people in certain scenarios, this method can and will increase yields. In a perfect world, all of our grow spaces would allow the plant to be bathed in light from all sides, and every single bud-site would get an equal amount of light. We don't live in a perfect world, though, so we have to start shaping the plant as we see fit. I've never said that this is the only, or even most effective method of training a plant, just that it is effective and the idea shouldn't be discarded entirely without at least some experimentation to back it up.
     
  6. #26 ecsd, Sep 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2010
    downshift, if you look at the first post youll see that i gave thanks to k33ftr33z, i use this method for better light penetration

    also thanks downshift for adding valuable info to my post, and scroggy eagerly awaiting yoour photos and knowledge

    i dont pull all at once, like i said its thru the whole cycle, i only use 2x400 watters so i need all the light i can get
     
  7. #27 DownShift, Sep 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2010
    Sorry man, musta missed that. Hehe "only" 2x400 watters. I'm running a couple CFLs.... I can't wait till I quit renting...:D
     
  8. I'm new to growing but have had 2 successful harvest and in the middle of the 3rd. I had to test this out since I have 3 clones from the same mum all 3 the same size age topped etc. Started by trimming inner leaves to allow more light in to the main stalk then trimmed fans until just the top 2 nodes were left at each bud site. Pics before and after are in my journal (sorry I'm new to posting an can't repost same pics). I'll keep updates in my hydro journal.
     
  9. nice, glad to see people accepting something out of the norm!!
     


  10. Well, I never did either way, but by what you are saying, does the plant use more energy mending the missing leaf or more energy keeping the leaf alive?

    When you prune regular trees, you save energy and allow the tree to focus on the higher branches.

    Although, if the buds and lower branches need more light, then why not give those area more light?
     
  11. I'm doing it right now with fantastic results on some reveged clones!

    The plant will survive the stress. This whole, if you remove a single fan leaf the plant will kiel over and die, bullish needs to be dropped. Especially by the people who perpetuate their own MYTH's without every attempting the technique.

    I've been defoliating every 4 days for the last 2 weeks. With each defoliation I notice the branches of branches becomming ever more prevelent. This is resulting in and extremely well developed plant. For the age of the plant it isn't exceptionally tall, but that is the part of the process. Extra time is needed.

    Ultimately, the harvest will tell me what I'm interested in. But as an experiment defoliation lives up the words of those who have done it. Those who rely on theory and spout ignorance are completely wrong.

    I'm not saying this is the end all be all... Just that people shouldn't be afraid to try it out for themselves some time and see if it works for them. LST is a bitch to do, all the tying down, dozens of branches at a certain point. This method has created a really even canopy with a lot of new branches ready to fill it out.
     
  12. thanks 2lsc for posting you results so far
     
  13. When the leaf is ready to drop the plant will cut off food to it and then you could pull it off if you want,pot is not a tree it is weed and annual.Its life cycle is one year makes seed and dies.Bud and the little leaf around it does make photosynthesis and feeds the plant ..but not as much as the leaf does..Its not the bud that is the main feeder of the plant but photosynthesis threw the leaf...I can just say this again...Pot growers are the ONLY farmers i know that pull leaf off plant to make it grow better...WHY?...OLD WIZE TAIL THAT JUST WILL NOT DIE!...Now i do know farmers that take off fruit,flowers that have not set fruit,to let the plant feed only the fruit it wants it too....BUT NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER HAVE I HEAD OF TAKING OFF LEAF!NEVER!
     
  14. #35 DownShift, Oct 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2010
    I'm sure that this is probably true, but name another commonly grown fruit/flower that is as covered in photosynthesizing leaves as MJ is. Instead of just shooting the idea down because tomato gardeners don't use it, why don't you give it a chance? You don't need to light your lower tomatoes, but you do need to light your lower buds if you want them to be anything more than popcorn buds. You do agree with me there right?


    If you agree with that, then the only question is whether or not the cost of the stress induced on the plant is worth the extra light to the lower bud sites. I'm not saying that I am 100% positive that it is worth it, as I don't have side by side data, but I'm saying that the idea has merit and deserves a better chance than saying "farmers don't do that, so I shouldn't."

    Most farmers/gardeners aren't growing something worth thousands of dollars per pound. They just let the shit grow because it's not worth the intensive effort to use a bunch of training techniques to squeeze out another tomato from the plant.
     
  15. I don't classify myself as a "farmer". "Gardener" perhaps, but def not a farmer. I trim lateral growth shoots off tomato plants, okra, beans (of all types), etc. as a matter of routine maintenance throughout their grow cycle. Other plants I garden, squash, zuchinni, etc. I let grow wild. My friends mutually agree that I grow not only some fine tasting tomatoes and veggies but there sure are a lot of them to eat and give away! I think the same would be said about my gardened MJ. Fine quality, fine plant health, fine yield.

    Trimming leaves and lateral branches as a form of ongoing and routine maintenance will not harm your plant or any plant if done so properly and exercising some restraint. It's just a matter of plant physiology and science. Farmers don't trim because they grow for weight and volume, and not necessarily for quality.

    To each their own. This "trim or not to trim" debate will survive us all! LOL! In a closed environment agriculture medium, trimming and training will be a significant compliment to the way you will inrease both yield and overall plant health. But that is just my opinion. The only way to truly find out is to.... yep! Do it yourself! You won't know until you grow bro!

    I mean ya know, it's such a simple thing. Not an issue to get one flying around the room backwards with hair on fire! Very passionate debate this one. I'm always amazed. Just clip and snip and if you mess it up then you'll know better... for the next grow.
     

  16. There is a thread about this like once a week.

    I'm actually giving it a shot myself to see how it works out for me. Taking a few fans off each weekhasn't seemed to hurt anything. I LST'd and Fim'd some plants. If they are bothered by this they aren't showing it. Growing like weeds =)
     

  17. good stuff p38....that just about sums it up...try it...dont try it....but if ya dont try it dont tell me it cant work:smoke: in a scrog you take a shit load of leaves off too...my yeild kicked ass
     
  18. I just had to drop my 2 cents:

    The OP is far from scientific proof that removing fan leaves improves yeild. If it had only been done to one plant and not the other and there was a difference that would have been interesting.

    The yeild of 12oz / 32" cubed makes me think even more that he has no idea what he is talking about since 32" cubed is less than the volume of a one quart mason jar.

    If he is saying a space 32" x 32" x 32" then that is a decent yield, but not very impressive, not enough to prove his point.

    imo.... and again this is imo and not based on any scientific study but I think the fan leaves should be left in place because they are photosynthesizeing more light energy into sugars for the plant to create larger flowers.

    I do think that by removing branches and future bud sites from the bottom of the plant, or debudding the plant and leaving the leaves in place you can concentrate the flowering energy to the flowers at the top of the plant. I will try to prove this by doing this to half of my plants in my current grow.
     
  19. LOL at "OLD WIZE TAIL".
     
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