How would you re/unite non-secular Islam and the secular west

Discussion in 'Politics' started by VikingToker, Jun 20, 2015.

  1. Facts are racist?




     
  2. I'm gonna use an apology for this one and hopefully it will help. Think of the current discrepancies in percent of extremism in "Muslim" nations kind of like the disproportionate percentage of blacks to whites that are locked up for violent crimes. Well there is probably some truth that countries in the middle east tend to have somewhat more archaic laws and practices, it is not true that this is caused solely by religion although it could definitely play a factor, but is caused by many factors and can be overblown. Similarly, African Americans probably commit slightly more violent crime than white people do, but this is due to many factors like where they predominately live, poverty, and ignorance that cause this behavior, and not the fact that they are simply black.

    I hope you see what I'm trying to get at. Regardless of blame, the social and historical context of other nations has allowed them to move past some of these barbaric practices well many are still dragged down. I think it's a little silly to believe that there wouldn't be some other bullshit to validate conflict if Islam didn't exist and extremism would still probably exist in similar levels. Do I think religion is holding them back to a certain extent, yes, but there are so many factors beyond that that are also the root of these problems.

    First, off the sectarian nature of the Middle East is a huge factor into why some of these nations are so unstable. How can you have stability when a large percent of your population is constantly suppressed every time there's a new regime in power? Cycles of extremism come in large part because of factors beyond religion. Without the Syrian civil war and the brutality of Assad ISIS probably wouldn't be the powerhouse it is today. Can you imagine if you are living in your village in Syria and its being shelled and your whole family dies from Assad's aggression. Then Isis comes along looking like the first real fighting force against Assad and you are compelled to join even if you aren't inherently extreme. Then when you are in something like this it's hard to break free I'm sure. As fucked up as it seems, a lot of them think they are probably doing good or simply don't care. I could imagine that if my family is brutalized by a dictator that I might even be compelled to join a group like ISIS if they were able to put up a real fight as fucked up as it sounds. I can't say for sure, I would hope that I wouldn't, but I don't think anyone really knows until they are put in that position.

    My point is not that we should have sympathy for Isis, because they are murdering psychopaths in many cases that should be contested. The problem is too assume that the sole driving force of ISIS birth is Islam. Yes they are Islamist extremists but the key to focus on and fight against is extremism of all kinds. Extremism exists in many forms. Whether it's crazy pro Russian guerrilla fighters, Putin cracking down on civil liberties, or even North Korean regimes, it exists outside the context of Islam. Things like religion, nationalism, resource issues, land issues, and cultural differences will always cause extremism. Look at the problems that exist in tons of impoverished African countries that have horrific epedemics of rape and violence. Things like this are not because of Islam. At the end of the day humans will always be fucked up however much society progresses as a whole. Even in America for Christ's sake we have people going out and shooting up people for absolutely no reason and it's 100% extremism. This extremism isn't based on any logical motivation in many cases except to harm individuals, which at the end of the day is even scarier than radical Islamic terrorism but I also don't live in the Middle East so that's a slightly biased opinion. Ultimately, it's the easy answer to say that without religion there wouldn't be any conflict or crazy barbaric practices, but j think that is far from the truth. As much as it may play a decent role, it is part of a whole host of issues that cause a lot of this extremism in "Muslim" countries. Plus on a side note there are plenty of counties that are "Muslim" that would be considered fairly liberal and democratic especially compared to many other countries in the world that we don't actively criticize.
     
  3. #323 HongKongPhooey, Aug 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2015
    Iran is a great case study.


    Conquered by Soviets and British forces for Oil and Logistics in WWII. They set up puppet regimes to counteract the main government to keep control until a crisis developed. A Prime Minister was then established, but foreigners still controlled the Oil.


    The PM starts nationalizing the Oil, so Britain enlists Americas help to overthrow this PM. A Pro-West Shah is established and he lives a luxurious stereotypical Western lifestyle. Iranians likely knew the truth behind everything and began to get very upset.


    The only place they could turn to was religion, and with the Ayatollah behind them the people overthrew the Shah. A constitutional democracy was developed but with religious leadership now holding the strings. They took some American hostages and relations continued to devolve.


    Iran's neighbor, Iraq, soon started causing problems till war was declared. The US backed Iraq and gave them weapons to take revenge.(Proxy wars right) however this backfired as we should all know by now. Anyways the US continued to hate Iran, and since then its been mostly sanctions and lots of posturing, although the Contra affair was am embarrassment to get some hostages back.


    It's not like Iran just hates the world, or the West because theyre Islamic.
     
  4. #324 forty winks, Aug 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2015
    ...

     
  5. I agree with most of what you wrote regarding Iran, but it's a damn shame that, in your words, regarding their desire to form a new government in Iran, "The only place they could turn to was religion."


     
  6. presentation of facts and.misrepresentation of them can be yes

    You sound like those people who say "I'm not racist, its a proven fact that black people are _______"

    -Yuri
     
  7. The main reason for this was because they were impoverished, uneducated and treated badly. Iranians were starving and yet the Shah and his wife lived like Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Including a 100 Million dollar extravaganza for the wealthy for Irans 2500th year with a Monarchy. The one glimmer of hope they had, PM Mossadegh, was deposed because he didn't play by Western rules.


    They tried to force western changes onto the people because they were put into power by westerners. A shock to a secular, middle-aged type of people. They did not have a good handle on their military, which had opened fire on protesters the year before the coup.


    Salvation through religion has been used for centuries as a tool to gain power. People will do anything to get to the top.



     
  8. One way that we can "reunite" (were we ever actually united?) with Islam, is to heed the words of the current Pope, Francis, who is very popular with Liberals in the United States and elsewhere. In response to the killings in France, by Muslim extremists, at the satiric magazine Charlie Hebdo, he said, “One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith".


    We must eliminate freedom of speech, and stop all criticism and jokes regarding the religions of others, according to Jorge Mario Bergoglio, which is the birth name of Pope Francis.


    This is a good start, right? While we're at it, might as well put a burka over the Statue of Liberty, so as not to offend anybody.






     
  9. I think what el papa meant was that we need to respect all religions, not just pick and choose who to taunt.

    A classic example is the murder of the French cartoonists. In France you can say what you want about Christians or Muslims but if you utter anything regarding Judaism you will end up being arrested.

    This is farcical, it is either one rule for all or no rules at all.
     
  10. #330 garrison68, Aug 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2015
    Don't know what happened to my post, it seems to have disappeared.


    The pope is against all criticism of all relgion, doesn't matter which one. Well, maybe not Satanism, I don't think he personally has weighed in on this yet. or various Pagan sects.


    Liberals and leftists think this pope is the cats's meow. This person hits the nail on the head, when it comes to the current pope:




     
  11. All popes are gee bags. Full stop. Just look at the "regime" they preside over. :)

    This latest pope is a cute hoor, he knows how to play the crowd. "I'm one of you, ordinary with simple tastes".
     
  12. That Dalton feller is an idiot.
     
  13. He is not the first pope to point things out, however obvious they are, such as his statement about the environmental woes that recently was in the news. This does not excuse the Catholic Church for what they have done throughout history, and continue to do. They did support the arts, I'll say that for them, on their terms but it's better than what the Reformation brought about.
     
  14. #334 VikingToker, Jan 31, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2016
    Mainstream Islam is a despicable culture with regards to women, jews and homosexuals, and that is slowly coming to the consciousness of common Europeans who have always wanted to think 'we are all the same' and cried 'racist!' when someone critiscized islam




    no way around it, they treat women like shit in a depressingly big part of the muslim world, and the muslim scripture supports that misoginy, and that shit does NOT fly over well even in trying-so-hard-to-be-tolerant Europe


    Multiculturalism is crashing and burning here, specifically<span class="redactor-invisible-space"> with regards to Islamic cultures, </span>Europe is going haywire


    Edit: I'm thread OP, btw, I've given up on this, Islam needs to go, like all other religions, just more urgently
     
  15. Answer to the question in the OP: I wouldn't. I'd dedicate all resources to space colonization and a national defense while that was being researched/built/executed. Set up colony and then peace out, let them blow each other up in the name of their sky-daddy since that seems like what they want to do.
     
  16. Pretty much, or at least get better at hiding it for fucks sakes. Kind of hard to defend western ideals when we dont actually posses the positive characteristics we claim to represent, Freedom, democracy and goodwill towards other.

     
  17. Mainstream Islam and the West can live in peace.

    We just need to find a way of beating down the bigoted extremist fanatics on both sides.

    You know the type who spew hatred and fear laden propaganda. The Anders Breiviks, Tommy Robinson, ISIS and Saudi Royal family. All bigoted freaks who fester and grow in a manure pile of hate and fear.

    I live in Europe and am yet to see an extremist Muslim go beserk or rape someone. All I see is the usual far right fanatics pushing the same old tired chestnut around and sadly the gullible in society who suck it up like a fancy Dyson.

    Typed in the cockpit of a runaway Boeing
     
  18. Missed the mass rapes all across European towns in NYs eve I suppose


    Missed the attemped invasion of Bielenfelds nightclubs


    Missed the subdued reports of mass rape in We are Stockholm concerts


    Missed the murder of Alexandra Mezher


    Missed the ban on migrants from German swimming pools because they were trying to force their way into women's locker rooms and were masturbating in children's pools


    and furthermore,


    Still haven't looked into how the muslim world in the middle east and magreb countries actually is, I suppose


    Still plenty of Europeans who have their head in the sand about this



    Still plenty who cling on to the idea that somehow we in the West are to blame for Islamic misoginy

     
  19. Yes. That's right, I did miss most of that. Probably got lost in the 000's of other rapes that took place across Europe in that time period.

    Isn't it funny how good ole boy's only ever notice when it's a boy of a different colour or creed doing the raping?

    You sure have a hard on for Muslims don't ya. What's driving that?

    Where does all this irrational hate come from?




    Typed in the cockpit of a runaway Boeing
     
  20. Another thread killed by disrespect/patronizing.
    SMH
     

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