Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Disclosure:

The statements in this forum have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are generated by non-professional writers. Any products described are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Website Disclosure:

This forum contains general information about diet, health and nutrition. The information is not advice and is not a substitute for advice from a healthcare professional.

Does High CBD Strains for Use in Pediatric Seizures Need Decarb to be Effective?

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by PsychedelicSam, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. I'll make this short and, since the subject matter is certainly not sweet, to the point instead.
     
    I need to know if the CBDA in a high-CBD strain such as Charlotte's Web, AC/DC, Harlequin, etc. needs decarbing to be effective for pediatric seizures. And this is more of concern with strains like Harlequin, Cannatonic, Sour Tsunami et al, than the Charlotte's Web, AC/DC or Hemp but still pertinent. 
     
    I'm concerned about any little amount of hyperactivity. The strains I mentioned have very high CBD rates, higher than or equal to the THC. The CBD will negate most of the psychoactivity but even just a little could be too much for a child and I don't want to take any chances. I'm an experienced extractor and know how to keep that THC inactive but I need to be sure that CBDA will have the desired effect upon the seizures. 
     
    I have Granny Storm Crow's most recent list and have searched the web and have not found anything addressing this. I'm not sure if it's still in the "trade secrets" realm but it needs to be addressed. It can save a lot of time and money from failed experiments with little effect.
     
    Big canna-pharm is scooping up the options as quickly as possible with the dollar signs flashing. Parents are flocking to Colorado and spending big bucks for something they could do themselves if they were confident enough. Even the scam network has jumped on this faster than they did RSO. I personally know people with late stage cancer who were fleeced by scammers for a lot of money. 
     
    If the CBDA does need to be activated for this particular trait, I'll figure out a way to get it done but it sure would be nice to know. Thanks.  :) 

     
  2. Okay, since no one here seems to have a clue, along with some other supposed experts I've asked so I suppose I'll just have to answer my own question. Anyone who knows my work will understand why I don't let this slide into oblivion. Someday, someone will get tired of paying a thousand bucks for their child's anti-seizure oil and will want to know how to do it themselves and will start searching. They'll either find nothing like I did or find this thread and stop looking. I will be entering all the pertinent info I'm able to find here in this thread. I'll try to pull it all together and do some experiments and tests so that it will be a comprehensive and easy to follow guide. 
     
    The first entry seems to indicate that CBD is needed as an anti-seizure agent. So far I haven't seen anything indicating that CBDA shares that property. I have learned that THCA is an antispamotic so that would be a plus. Here's a chart showing the various properties of the various cannabinoid components and it appears that THCV plays a large role as well as the terpenoid Linalool. Just from this alone we can learn that a strain high in CBD also with high THCV and high Linalool content is possibly the way to go. Linalool can also be added to the cannabis extraction to supplement that property if needed. This is just a start in the search for my answer to my very own question. 
     
    I found this here: http://theleafonline.com/c/science/2014/07/cannabinoid-profile-crash-course-cbda/
     ​
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Wish I could give you a direct answer, I think the best way to go about this would be to get a variety of test patients(adults) and get them to try it and report back any effects.  Unfortunately this sounds illegal in my mind so maybe not so great of an idea.
     
  4.  
    I don't think anyone can give me a direct answer because I don't think the answer is known yet and may not be until the Gov changes the classification so that it can really be studied. For me it's not an illegal proposition because I live in a medically legal state and since I produce products for the local market, I have access to test subjects or in other words, guinea pigs. This one chart that I posted has already provided me with a lot of information that I can use to make specialty formulas, just not pediatric seizures yet...but someday.  :rolleyes: 
     
  5. Honestly, it depends if the seizures are even responsive to CBD, in which case, yes, it needs to be decarb'd. However, some patients (even kids) need a THC/THCA or a CBD/THCA blend, so... if you know someone who needs CBD, not CBDA, then yes. Otherwise, it's just as much a crap shoot as anything else. 
     
  6. I have to agree with Beanie. It's a crap shoot. There have been anecdotal studies showing that THCA can be just as effective as CBD in pediatric seizure patients. Just like anything with Cannabis, different compounds work differently on different patients. Do a quick Google search on "THCA and Seizures"
     
    I have found that the CBD Crew strains (Nordle and Critical Mass) have worked wonders on a variety of ailments. Pain, PTSD, Anxiety, ALS, MS, muscle spasms and more.
     
    I do not have first hand experience with Harlequin, Cannatonic AC/DC etc. but from what I understand, high CBD ratios in those strains is also a crap shoot. Not all plants from the same strain are high in CBD.
     
    After testing many plants from several harvests, I can say that the CBD Crew strains are the most consistent. Every single plant I have had tested are 1:1 or higher.
     
  7.  
    Thanks, beaniegrl420. Yeah, I'm aware of the "crap shoot" about consistent and reliable information to date. That's one of the reasons I started the thread, hoping to be able to pull together some of the more reputable bits into a coherent whole. It's really difficult, if not impossible, to fully decarb CBD without breaking down the THC into CBN, so what I will probably decide to do is to do a partial decarb or just let the heat from reduction do the job. With that process I should have a good blend of the acids and true cannabinoids.  :) 
     
  8.  
    Thanks for contributing, LLBill. You know, it's an even bigger "crap shoot" than many people realize, even seasoned MMJ pros. Over the last few months I've been digging into this general field, not just the pediatric, it's beginning to appear that CBGA is the actual key to the medical properties displayed by various strains for most cannabinoid acids, which become the acutal true cannabinoids other than THCA. It seems that all the other applicable compounds are metabolites of CBGA. That includes CBG, CBDA, CBD, CBCA, CBC but I don't believe that THCV is included in that list and it is an important anti-seizure agent in it's own right. 
     
    Apparently the way the CBGA breaks down determines how much of each of the other compounds are produced. I don't yet know if there is a way to manipulate the process somewhere that would influence those quantities. It would be like manipulating a high THC Sativa into a sleep aid by over-decarb or a series of freeze/heat cycles to break the THC down into CBN. Starting this thread has now set off my thinking cap and the deeper I get into it, the more I want to know. This CBG thing and all the new cannabinoids being found are fascinating and could lead some vastly improved cannabis remedies, at least at my amateur level.
     
    I've never been a high CBD kind of guy. The highest I've gone is Hindu Kush or Bubba or something like that and it was perfect for my personal needs and those of my "clientele" with high THC content playing a large factor. That was adequate to get me back up on my feet after major back surgery and then again after an auto accident messed up that previous back surgery. Each time I was able to walk again without aids, which is wonderful in itself, but also have used it to get completely off narcotic pain meds after each episode. 
     
    So now I have to get boned up on the opposite end of the spectrum and learn what I can and explore the new data as it comes out. For an initial sampler we're using Pennywise as the strain which appears to be quite appropriate from what I can tell. There's a lot of Harlequin in the market but there's also quite a bit of Critical Mass. I had wanted some Charlotte's Web for the pediatric aspects but it's still rare in this area.
     
    Thanks for the info on those strains. I'll add them to my list.  :)
     
  9. It really is damn near impossibly to get the CBD and THC decarb'd with heat. That's all I have. You might try a dehydrator, if you have one? I don't and not sure I can spring for one, but if it seems to work, I may have to squeeze that expense in. i'd save so much in edibles!
     
  10.  
    That's not really the case but it is true about getting them decarbed together since that happens at different rates, with THC starting to break down by the time the CBD is fully decarbed so I usually go for the THC time and let the CBD complete with the heated alcohol reduction. I have tests, personal ones, that show full THCA conversion to THC with negligible CBN creation in 30 minutes at 230F. There wasn't enough CBD in the sample to verify that part but that is on the agenda for the near future. That is Here.
     
    I also have tests that show the heat from the reduction of a non-decarbed material will decarb the material about 15-20% here.  Also natural aging will make a big difference, whether natural plant material or in a tincture. Here is the one showing the aging of an non-decarbed, natural evaporation with no heat by about 50% over the course of 2 months post processing. The material was 2 months old at the time of processing. The dry material test hasn't been done yet due to cash flow issues but I hope to get back to work on it soon. I have a sample that was tested shortly after harvest and still have some to do an aging analysis with as soon as possible. 
     
    As you can tell, there is more than meets the eye. If you notice, there are some discrepancies in the actual numbers of the tests due to the way the labs test and anyone who has any experience with them will know that to be true. Because of that, it's the comparative studies of the graphs that illustrate the issues. These are the kind of things that there are no conclusive studies of and I have been trying to the best of my abilities to decipher the results and make them available. I have a long way to go yet. I've learned a lot in the last 3 years but this thread illustrates the need to further my education. 
     
    [​IMG]
     
  11. I have an update of the oil we were making for the little girl with seizures. I'm not at the actual site of the patient and am only the "consultant and scribe", doing the research and providing that and my personal knowledge for the endeavor. Others are doing the actual work and dispensing at a careful pace and I will give updates as I learn them.
     
    We started at just one drop of the infused concentrated coconut oil which has the equivalent of one ounce of Pennywise strain in one ounce of coconut oil with a solvent transfer from an ethanol extraction of the same volume instead of making the oil first then dissolving in the coconut oil. This greatly increases the bioavailability of the cannabis oil alone. 
     
    Since we were treading new territory and dealing with a small child we wanted to make our way slowly. I don't believe that the single drop was having an effect after a couple of weeks although I don't know it there was any effect at all. I received word earlier today that the dosage has been increased to 2 drops but I don't know how many times per day. Twice, I think, but I'll find out. This is important because it is working now. The information I have is that she had been having hundreds of severe seizures daily and now "the seizures have been mild". 
     
    I will get more detail as I can. Please understand that I respect the privacy of the participants and will not press for details until they are ready to share but from the current info, there does seem to be a reason for optimism. This improvement is great and the dose will be kept there for a short while and then increased, maybe by adding another dosing or upping the amount another drop. I'll have another update when I get it. I'm still researching, too, and will continue to add new info as it becomes available.  :) 
     
  12. Hey Sam.... All the cannabinoids have that carboxyl group attached and without it's removal the body's cells cannot receive the cannabinoids. They will not mesh with the receptors on the cells. The carboxyl group acts like a little arm that gets in the way. I just got thru a bunch of data search on decarbing, I know...what can I say :smoking: ..a researcher whose full time job is to run samples thru analysis explained it real well.  And the temps he uses to decarb are very high. 240-300, time dependent. He did say that 80% of the samples he gets from vendors are way under decarbed, leaving a lot of medicine to go to waste. This may also be part of the reason why most store edibles are so weak.
    As far as limiting the THC effect, if the CBD is high enough it should cancel it out. By keeping your oven temp below the boiling point of the specific Terpenes you're interested in you "should" end up with the right result. Test some on a lightweight you know and use a sample proportionate to size.
    good luck....
    H :smoke:
     
  13.  
    I'm sorry, HJ, but I don't agree with your analyst about the acids not connecting to the receptors per my personal experience and research. As you know, I've also been spending a lot of time on the subject of decarbing or not and all my research shows that the acids are quite valuable and the CB1 and CB2 receptors are what they attach to. CB1 is psychoactive and CB2 in not. Many of the other cannabinoids and acids attach to the CB2, other than the THC related ones. Here's a quote citing effects for just one, THCA. 
     
    "THCA is the main constituent in raw cannabis. THCA converts to D9-THC when burned, vaporized, or heated for a period of time at a certain temperature. Although THCA has no psychoactive effects of its own, it acts as a cannabinoid receptor agonist, and in so doing helps in its neuroprotective (brain protection) effectsTHCA is known to act as an anti-inflammatory agent. Clinically, THCA is fundamental in the production of cannabis that is utilized for medical purposes such as production of cannabis tea. In addition, THCA has been utilized effectively as a biomarker together with THCV in testing drugs and in differentiating between approved processed varieties of cannabis used for medicinal purposes and other materials from cannabis plant that can be used by patients.THCA not only has anti-proliferative abilities that are crucial in helping inhibit the growth of cancerous cells, but also, it has anti-spasmodic abilities that helps subdue muscle spasms and therefore has potential use among epileptic patients."  http://www.cbdscience.com/thca-tetrahydrocannabinolic-acid.html
     
    And to put a definition on "agonist" is good, old Wikipedia, "[SIZE=14.1666660308838px]An agonist is a chemical that binds to a [/SIZE]receptor[SIZE=14.1666660308838px] and activates the receptor to produce a biological response." If it didn't hit the receptors it wouldn't be any use to epileptics but it is. Unactivated cannabinoids are also key in the treatment of MS, Parkinson's and other nerve diseases. The difference is in how they connect. It's dependent upon the exact molecular configuration as to where it bonds. That carboxyl group is just one site and effects will be different. Other chemicals are also vying for those spots, like our natural endocannabinoids as well as opiates and psychiatric drugs, so it's not really that simple. The fact that those samples may have been underdecarbed and not as psychoactive is no indication of those non-psychoactive compounds not bonding to the receptors.  [/SIZE]
     
    You've read my rants about "scientific" decarb times and charts so I won't repeat it here. The important thing to remember here is that this is for a little child for medicine. We have no guinea pigs to try different things on. It's freshly harvested and dried, maybe 2 weeks old, with no decarb. It's a high CBD strain. The only decarb it would have gotten would have been during reduction so this application is inherent upon those acids connecting to the receptors to control the seizures. CBDA along with THCA is also an antispasmotic and a lot more. 
     
    It seems to be working and that's really the ultimate goal. After a few more weeks with improvement I can probably list the question as answered. I had the same idea about the high CBD negating the THC but I happen to know a couple of people who got really stoned on those strains, even Charlotte's Web and AC/DC so I couldn't take a chance.  :) 
     
  14. It's all food for thought... :smoke:
    have you thought of juicing?
     
  15. I found that researcher I mentioned. Dr. Paul Hornby. You might find him and what he's up to interesting. He's been working with a Canadian co-op for some time working on developing strains and meds for many patients and I think maybe some w similar needs to your own.
     
  16.  
    The jury's still out on a lot of it and we may not find out in our lifetimes if they don't change the schedule designation, and that's why I believe what I see and not what I'm told. Always been like that, I guess. There's obviously more ways than one to accomplish these things but nobody seems willing to accept that their absolute ways are not absolute. I hope to begin contributing again to that particular dialog with the continuation of my natural decarb study soon.
     
    Juicing isn't my thing. I tried juicing, not cannabis, a few years ago and decided it was gross. It takes too much material for the net results and they're hell to clean and have to be cleaned every time. With cannabis you would need way too much leaf or whatever to do that for very long unless you have a very large garden. I would try cannabis juice if someone handed it it me but I doubt that a little girl would savor the taste.  :) 
     
  17.  
    My needs are simple but it's my thirst for knowledge that's all consuming. I'll check him out.  ;) 
     
  18. something else we share... :smoke: ....like a big ol' bowl full
     
  19. 'I would try cannabis juice if someone handed it it me but I doubt that a little girl would savor the taste.  :) '
     
    Good thread this one.  As a father of a little girl with intractable epilepsy (subcortical band heterotopia), you would be surprised what tastes little girls get to liking.  I think after Topomax anything tastes good.  Our little girl has taken 1ml (180mg CBD) of Elixinol on her breakfast cereal for the last 3 months.  Lets just say all you can smell on her breath afterwards is pure green.
     
    I wouldn't say we have the seizures beat just yet but their number and intensity have been drasticaly reduced and more importantly we have halved her meds and aiming to taper her off ALL AEDs and believe it will be achievable.  The more I read the more I am convinced we need some THCA and possibly other cannabinoids 'in the mix' to contain her condition and give her the best shot at life.
     
    Great to see some smart people zoning in on these unanswered questions.  I will be following as a simple wheat farmer (in Australia) with a vested interest in seeing the science unfold.  Keep it up Sam and crew :)
     
  20.  
    Howdy, santalum. I'm sorry to hear you have a daughter that suffers from those horrible episodes but I'm also glad to hear that they are dwindling with the treatment. I also believe that there should be a little of the other cannabinoids, at least in the acid form like THCA and CBDA and others. We made the oil from Pennywise strain which is a high CBD one at about 1:1 ratio THC/CBD. We didn't decarb so the only activation would come from the small amount of heat used to concentrate it.
     
    I wish I knew more about how it's going with this little girl but she lives almost 3000 miles away and it's a third party communication. The last report was that the mother had been wary and because we were so uncertain, the very small dosage was helping a little but not much and the mother had stopped giving it to her. However, after during a very bad seizure they decided to try again but increasing the dosage considerably and it worked. Not completely but much, much less severe but I haven't heard beyond that yet since then. I can only hope that it has helped but we do know that it hasn't hurt. 
     
    I'll keep this updated as I find out and I'll also be continuing to post any additional medical information I learn in my research. I was looking at that Elixinol which seems to be a step above other CBD formulations but, like you, I think it would benefit young patients if some cannabinoids were in it. You don't have legal medical cannabis yet in Australia, do you? If you could get a high CBD strain and make some oil with it, you could maybe use a combination, discreetly, and see if that works. Of course, you wouldn't be able to tell anyone local, probably, without fear of Child Services, but the experience you can could be invaluable for your daughter and others. 
     
    Thanks for participating.  :) 
     

Share This Page