Heated & Natural Decarboxylation Testing Project for THC & High-CBD

 
Welcome to the new thread, smf, and thanks for the kind words. 
 
A lot of the dispensaries are doing the same thing here and I hate it. They package up a bunch of those bags of varying sizes and then just stick them on the shelf where it then dries out even more. You should be able to do it in the bag as long as there's no plastic or anything else that may melt or leach from the packaging. You may want to open the package first just to see how fresh it is. If it's pretty moist still, you may want to leave the package you're going to use open over night and let any of the excess moisture evaporate then seal it back up the next day before putting in the sun. 
 
Since you've been doing this for a while now, you should be able to tell when your material is decarbed. It will have that crunchy feel to it but if you keep the buds whole, you run the risk of not getting the decarb all the way through so if you can break it down first it would help. You're in a very arid area and with intense sun so if you put it in the windshield or rear window of a vehicle it should be ready in ah hour or so. If you leave it as whole bud it will take longer. 
 
Just use your experience to tell when it's crumbly enough for you. I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to do a bunch of testing on your medicine. It's expensive, hard to find and doesn't really give you immediate results anyway. Experience is the key and you have plenty. You shouldn't have any problems. Don't forget about it sitting in the sun, though, or it might get a little too toasty. It's better to pull it a little early if you're not sure instead of getting it too dry. As we've seen here, it will continue to decarb with the heated reduction and also with aging.
 
I hope this helps. Stay safe, my friend.   

 

 
It all boils down to vigilance, Stih. If you don't pay attention then you can ruin it, yes, but that can happen if you leave it in the oven too long. Here in my desert, the temperature in a hot car gets up to 150F within minutes but not much hotter. If you have the bag in the window then it will get a little hotter but not as hot as your oven. I left a tape player in my windshield once for a couple of hours and when I got back in the car it had melted the cartridge and the edges of the player so much that I had to throw it away. But the oven is hotter.   

 

Tips Concerning Laboratory Analysis You Need to Know
Over the last few months I have been having a lot of things tested in preparation for this thread and I have found a lot of my assumptions about laboratory analysis are based upon a predilection to believe in "science" and not the actual science that's revealed. Lab testing is more of a crap shoot than an exact image of your cannabis product and if any of you have an inclination, as I do, to find out the real details in numbers and hard data, I want to take this opportunity to give you a little heads up about what to expect and what not to expect.


I have had samples tested about 15 times since I started this project and used 2 different labs in 2 different states, both medically legal states and all of them HPLC, High Performance Light Chromagraphy, which is the only method that provides the analysis of both the acid and active forms of cannabinoids separately, ie THC/THCA. Not all labs are able to do HPLC and the ones that do differ greatly. Most lab results that are quoted by dispensaries are Gas Chromagraphy and just measures total cannabinoids. You can't compare a GC result and an HPLC one.


The criteria for cannabis testing is controlled by the DEA. The states that have legalized in some form or other have to petition the federal government to be allowed permission to use those criteria in their individual states. Those states will then license the use of that data and the labs then have to apply for a license in order to receive and use the specific software, from the federal government, that reads those values. Because cannabis is Schedule 1, there are no independent sources that corroborate that data so that is one minus just coming out of the gate.
The lab I use in my state just recently got licensed to use the data to read for CBDA which came separately from the other HPLC testing. The other one I use is in a state where it's been legal for a while and they had the full set. I'm beginning to think that the local lab either got screwed by the state or can't read the results properly because their tests, at least for tintures, don't give anything other than THCA and THC. Because of that, I have to break off testing for a while.


Here's the main tip...if you're serious about the testing, be prepared to put out some cash. You will not get real world results with just one, especially if it's something other than plant material. Bud is fine, although I have seen some big mistakes, but edible and tincture testing is nowhere near perfect so you will have to perform extra tests just to zero in the range. That's where I am now. The last test was completely off the map due to some irregularities at the lab that I have now learned happens quite often. It's a complete wash and now I have to run some more tests so that I can dial in on the real results. I just don't have the cash right now to follow up on these. Hopefully some day.


If you're serious about setting up a testing project, be prepared for frustration as you learn that it isn't an exact science. If at all possible, use multiple labs. One lab may be really good at one thing but not another and vice versa with another lab. Some do edibles well while other don't. One may use linear graphs while others use a bar graph or pie chart and each is good for different data.


A good study takes time so while this thread may be inactive for long periods of time, it is not dead. I've got to do some more lab research and take care of my health, more importantly, over the next couple of months but the tests shall resume. If anyone out there has some tests on decarb or would like to participate, let me know. The more the merrier.

 

 
Thanks, Jack, I appreciate your interest. Also, good timing. I have finally been able to do another test and am about ready to announce a pretty definitive piece to the puzzle but first I'm having the sample run again to verify the results before making it public. A little tease on that is that it appears that after 1 year from harvest there is only about a 1.5% rate of decarboxylation from a jarred humidity controlled environment. I hope to have more details on that up tomorrow. 
 
The same cannot be said for alcohol tincture. I have tests that indicate a 35% increase in decarb after 2 months @ room temperature. That will be the next test and I hope to find it fully decarbed by now but we'll see on that one. I have made tincture and other products many, many times with naturally decarbed trim so that is where my experience comes from. It was already aged when I got it and fully psychoactive for oral dosing. The activation process for buds seems to be quite long if today's test results are any indication, although placing it in a tincture will speed up the process. 
 
It's my opinion that a Green Dragon extraction, and possibly RSO-type oil, starts gaining some activity after about a month. As the results on Post 17 show, there was a marked increase in activation over 2 months. These samples were from air dried fan leaf about 3 months after harvest so it had a larger percentage of THC to start than a fresher, cured bud might have but the increased percentage of activation should remain similar. 
 
I have used a completely non-decarbed tincture before and found that the physical effects for most strains were comparable for Indica dominants but Sativas can be devastating for some people. Psychoactive properties of both were present but of a different nature. Indicas often produce as much pain relief but without the heavy couchlock with maybe a tad more cerebral effects, not necessarily psychoactivity but more of a clarity of thought. Sativas on the other hand can produce heightened anxiety, panic, hyperactivity, shaking, tremors, etc for those not real accomplished with handling those effects.
 
I'm afraid I don't know a lot about the ruderalis branch of the family other than a few autos I've tried but each of those seemed to have the full array of pain killing properties. Other than that I have no information to make any kind of judgement but it is another topic that definitely needs to be studied a bit deeper.
 
Red oil can have a few different sources. If it's naturally decarbed, it's been aging for a while and most of the chlorophyll has broken down and the colors of the pistils deepen and can become a deep amber which can be almost maroon. I have experienced this before. I've seen purple, too. I know that red oil is produced from steam distillation, too, and various solvents. Some say that red oil is less potent but has a higher yield. That's something for my "to do" list.
 
I winterize my Green Dragon but do not winterize my oil since it is specifically for optimal health benefits. While the waxes and oils that filter out with winterization can influence the overall taste and purity, they also have their own properties that add to the medical profile. I use Green Dragon where taste is important and oil only for my health. I really don't notice any difference, though.
 
I hope to have further tests posted in the next few months and look forward to having many more conversations with you about the results.   

 

 
Hi, Jack. I'm working on the analysis for the last test and should have it ready in a day or two but one thing I have calculated is that the rate of decarb for that sample was actually 14.6% over the course of a year, so I missed a decimal point in my original estimation. I do the analysis in my main thread and then when I have it worked out, I put the completed outcome over here. I use it for a teaching aid as I deduce the relevance and try to show how I arrived at those conclusions and try to get some interaction from the readers. If you want to follow along, I'll include the links at the bottom of this post. 
 
If you use iso you will need to winterize but that's not a bad thing. I winterize my personal tinctures and I notice no difference with effects. One run through the filter after winterization is all you need. There should be no lumpiness or clumping. The iso oil should just dissolve in the vodka with a little stirring. Leave it in the freezer for 24-48 hours before filtering. You can use it in the Green Dragon form for edibles, tinctures, topicals and toking.
 
If you have a good Indica, the pain relief is still there for a non-decarbed product but not the couchlock or much head effects. A non-decarbed Sativa can be trouble for someone with anxiety and panic issues and pain will sometimes intensify. The Indica, however, will leave you with a clear head and mobility along with the pain relief, more like a Sativa dominant than an Indica. 
 
I use a total soak time of about 4 hours spread between 2 runs but I use ethanol. Iso will pull the same compounds and can be used the same way to draw out the other compounds. Using a freezer will greatly increase your efficiency. Here's my simpler how-to thread that will give you some ideas of how to proceed with slight differences due to the iso. Dragon Lite.....another Tincture Thread.
 
I might point out that the recent sample was kept in a very controlled setting sealed in a jar with a Boveda 62% humidity pack and not opened for a year. The next set of dry material samples will examine other drying scenarios including dessicants, but no heat, and plain old air dry. Got a lot of work ahead. 
 
http://forum.grasscity.com/incredible-edible-herb/1102315-another-tincture-thread-try-youll-like.html/page-347#entry21477026
http://forum.grasscity.com/incredible-edible-herb/1102315-another-tincture-thread-try-youll-like.html/page-349#entry21483182
http://forum.grasscity.com/incredible-edible-herb/1102315-another-tincture-thread-try-youll-like.html/page-350#entry21489215
 
These links are the start of the analysis for the latest sample. 

 

 
It seems like you were interested in actually knowing about decarb instead of just knowing how to do it so I brought you here for the basics. There is still a lot of knowledge to be gleaned but we've got a good start on things. I'm going to recommend that you check out the links I gave Jack in the post above. I'd like to recommend my main thread but that's a lot of reading so Dragon Lite is a good place to start. 
 
Plant waxes are inert compounds in the plant that when cold can be filtered out but they don't really cause any problem. If you are going for a toking product then they can cause some harshness. In a tincture they can cause a little cloudiness over time when refrigerated. It can cause a buildup of residue if using to transfer to another medium like glycerin or agave nectar. 
 
The tests here are both dry material and GD, with most being the tincture. The one you reference with the nearly equal columns is after a 2 month sit and it shows the increase in THC while at the same time showing the decrease in THCA. The first set of tests are the results from a heated decarb of dry material and others include no decarb, heated reduction of the GD vs natural reduction and no heat at any point. 
 
Here's an Index/Table of contents for my projects. Index/Table of Contents.  

 

Natural Decarb Project Dry Material Update

​

 ​

 
I have added another point of reference to our natural decarb project that is nearing it's first anniversary. That "point of reference" is a very important key to our continuing research and while it's not a completely surprising event, the extent of the difference in expectations and actual results is interesting and opens a bunch of new points of study. 
 
First, a brief history of the sample. It is a bud from a harvest in March '14 and another bud from that same harvest was tested in April after drying. It's unknown if the buds are from the same plant but there were only 6 plants in the harvest. I mention this point because you will see a noticeable difference in cannabinoid content between the two samples but that isn't important for this study. Conversion from the acid to the cannabinoid forms is the main interest. This bud has been kept in a sealed jar with the humidity controlled by a Boveda humidipak @ 62%. It was seldom opened so there was basically no air exchange during that year. 
 
This particular result will redefine how I look at decarb in some cases and will definitely alter some advice I have been giving, but not as much as you might think. This was a very controlled experiment and is the point at which we begin to work our way to actuality. It opens the door to several interesting scenarios which I will discuss at too much length later more than likely. 
 
Get out your textbooks and turn to the first chapter......no, not really but our first look at the analysis is going to take on the form of a word problem from math class. In fact, it's something from very basic statistical analysis that will give you an understanding (I hope) of simple comparative statistics. That is the method we will be using to analyze these numbers since the numbers themselves are not equal but representative. 
 
The images below have been edited to indicate the data needed to solve the problem. The image on the left is the original sample from 1 year ago and the image on the right is the recent sample. Please select an image to see the expanded view. The data that is circled includes the total cannabinoids, THC & THCA for each sample. 
 

​

 ​

It's fairly easy to see how to get the apparent percentage of natural decarboxylation but how do you get the representative percentage considering the large discrepancy between the total cannabinoid count of the samples? You want to find the percentage of THC to THCA on each test. The formula for that is as follows:
First Sample:
A/B = x/100 with A & B the known values
Invert and cross multiply  Bx = A * 100
In this sample "A" is the amount of known THC and "B" is the known amount of THCA = 1.95/18.6
Step 2 for this sample is 18.6x = 195
Percentage of THC to THCA in this sample is  x = 195÷18.6 = 10.48%
Second Sample:
a/b=x/100 > 3.21/12.8=x/100 > 12.8x=321 > x=321÷12.8 = 25.078 
 
In order to find the percentage of decarboxylation attained in one year for these samples you would subtract the smaller, sample A, from the larger, sample B.
25.078-10.48=14.598%.
 
In review, our sample was kept in a sealed jar with the humidity controlled at 62% at room temperature for one year and was seldom disturbed with decarb occurring at a rate of 14.6% per year. This will be our control for future dry material sampling using other techniques. 
 
Our next test will be a one year sampling of Green Dragon as soon as I get some extra cash.  
 
 
<div> 
 
 

</div> 

 

Project Updates Coming Soon




I'm happy to announce, to anyone who cares, that I have finally gotten a long way on this over the last few months and have discovered quite a few things that I'm excited to share with you. I'll start adding the test results and scenarios as soon as I get them in an organized format. Some of the information already presented has been amended and extended so I will be editing some of the original posts that have new and/or changed material.


Along with the natural decarb project I am going to include what I believe to be an important study on heated decarb scenarios with time and temperature results. Previous assumptions have been erroneous on a number of factors related to this subject and I have multiple sources verifying my data.


I have just started a new natural decarb project that I will call The Dark Star Genesis. It uses a lab tested 28% Dark Star strain that has been made into a Green Dragon tincture. The material has not been decarbed nor had any heat applied anywhere in the process. The evaporative concentration is occuring naturally in a cabinet, slowly, and once it reaches a concentration of 4g/fl oz it will be capped and tested. This material has a lot of CBDA which has not been converted to other cannabinoids yet and it is going to be interesting to see which compounds form and diminish during the course of the project, 3-6 months.


Many of the lab results have been posted in my main thread and if you want a sneak peak, you can begin HERE and progress through the end of the thread.

 

Jack, I'm sorry that I missed your last post. Please forgive me if you are still around. The monthly testing is being done.

 

It's almost totally inactive so there would be no psychoactive effects but it would be good for some conditions. This is for science but I'll definitely try it when it's finished in a few months.