Ancient Astronomical Knowledge

The ancient Vedas (written from about 1000BC on to 200BC as the textual basis of Hinduism and some aspects of Buddhism), hold a mystery. They talk of planets, solar systems, galaxies and atoms - and yet the latter 3 were not even conjectured until hundreds of years after these texts were written. They talk too about a cyclical universe in just the same way that cosmologists do now. But, although Sumerian/Babylonian astronomy, just about concurrent with the later Vedas, was very advanced it didn't talk about or observe galaxies at all. In fact the first direct observation of a Galaxy (the Andromeda Galaxy) was around 900AD where it was described as 'a cloud' (of light).

Modern science didn't prove the existence of other galaxies until 1923 (Edwin Hubble).

But, within meditational experiences, views of the universe, stars and galaxies are well known. Could this be a way of showing a proof of these experiences? Here are two short mentions from both the Vedas and Buddhism:


Buddhism - Diamond Cutter Sutra

"Suppose, Subhuti, that a man or woman filled with the seven treasures as many galaxies as there are grains of sand in the great Ganges, and then offered them all to the Tathagatas; and suppose a Bodhisattva patiently forbore all dharmas, which in themselves have no essence. This Bodhisattva would gain an immeasurably greater merit. And yet a Bodhisattva should gain no merit."
"But would not, Buddha," Subhuti asked, "a Bodhisattva gain much merit?"
"He would gain it, Subhuti, but he should not grasp it."
Buddha continued: "If anyone says that the Tathagata comes or goes, sits or reclines, he fails to understand my teaching. Why? The Tathagata has neither whence nor whither, and therefore he is called the supremely enlightened one'. "If a man or woman took a galaxy for every particle of dust in this vast galaxy and thoroughly ground each one until it was reduced to atoms, would the heap of atoms be great?"

<CENTER>The Vedas - Section 02 - So Dar - Part 002

The brave and mighty warriors sing of You. The spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing of You.
The worlds, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing of You.


</CENTER>

Interesting.

MelT

 

I'm asking if anyone here who knows about astronomy or ancient cultures can help me out. Did the ancient Greeks or some other ancient race know about these things prior to their mention in the Vedas?

I know that the Buddhist text I posted would have been recorded over 2,500 years ago, which isn't that far back as things go, but the Vedas are obviously a lot older.

It isn't a vast leap of logic for any race, once it's realised that planets are planets (did we know that back then? I know Sumerians were recording planetary movements, but whether they knew what they were or not I don't know) and that they go around the sun, to then suppose that the stars they see are other systems. But without having seen a galaxy, the texts say that they knew (or thought they did) that they existed.

I don't think this is a translation problem. It isn't anyone inferring modern ideas on vague old words. These things have acknowledged terms in sanskrit. It could well be transimission from another culture, or a good guess based on observation, but they were taking them for granted, without observing one, for many hundreds of years before we knew they were there.

As supposedly seeing real stars and galaxies and even the universe from the outside is a part of some experiences of realsation, I am obviously interested in how the Hindus thought what they did. I can go with the cyclical universe idea as a good guess, but galaxies I'm not so sure. What do you think?

MelT

 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4922896500632385267

This is a movie about Babylon and its achievements over 2,500 years ago, in some cases, like the glazes they talk about later, things that we can only reproduce in the last century. Look out fot he 'Ishtar Gate' about two thirds the way in.

MelT

 

http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/india/as-india.html

I think you'll love a lot of the things on this site if you're at all interested in the subject of the thread. It's a site that puts all the worlds different ancient astronomical knowledge into context and says who thought what. Some of it's suprising and cool. India's a good start in it all.

But also, for anyone interested in Buddhism, hinduism and all the other isms, this is a part of the text that shows how the vedic culture at one point in their history suddenly started talking about enlightenment and cosmic consciousness and reincarnation, etc. at a point where they already had a well established cosmology and belief system in place. This was the point where all of that began, for whatever reason. Here's an excerpt;

"Rta was a concept crucial to the Vedic religion, and even today the echoes of this idea resonate through Hinduism. Rta was similar to the concept of ma'at in Egyptian cosmology: it was the basic pervading rhythm of existence, the law of nature, the way things were supposed to be. It was both moral and natural law. Because of rta the sun rose in the morning and the rivers did not flow backwards. Rta was also the ancestor of the doctrine of karma, and as such it provided the moral law of the cosmos. It was a cause and effect law that stated that good came back to its doer as good and bad as bad.
'India is king, the most important of the gods. This is the teaching. his strength and energy are without measure for he is endowed with vigor and his radiance is infinite.' (Comte p. 110) These are the words of the Mahabharata, the great Indian epic and the longest epic in the world. He was a storm god and a warrior, and also the inspiration of artists and the provider of wealth. He slayed the dragon Vtra, who represented universal disorder, the opposite of rta. He is also said to have led the conquest of the Indian subcontinent by the Aryans. In many ways he bore a resemblance to his counterparts in other parts of the Indo-Aryan world; like the Greek storm god, Zeus, he was king of the gods and had a fondness for mortal women. An exuberant and virile god, he exemplified the Aryan outlook on life.

All of this was to change, however. In the later part of the Vedic era, a collection of works known as the Upanishads were composed. Considered the last of the works known as Vedic, these works were written by the rsis, or seers, who also passed the other Vedas on to mankind. The Upanishads hypothesized the existence of a Universal Consciousness or Oversoul that they called Brahman. They stressed the fleetingness of this life, and first described the nature of the soul, called the atman. The atman was part of Brahman, a part that could be rejoined with the Oversoul when the individual possessing it attained enlightenment. Otherwise it would be trapped in the cycle of reincarnation. The concept of the reincarnation cycle was another idea first developed in the Upanishads. The Vedic gods paled in comparison to the depth of the Upanishadic world view..."



MelT

 

"From current knowledge of the movement of the sphere of stars surrounding the earth, it can be calculated that the observations leading to the myth of Janus were made around 4000 BC. Additionally, within the Rg Veda is a verse observing the winter solstice in Aries, which would have placed it at around 6500 BC.

It is possible to date the Rg Veda like this because a complete cycle in the procession of the equinoxes takes place either every 25,870 to 24,500 years according to modern astronomers (the exact time period is still disputed by modern day astronomers), meaning that the moon is only full in Sagittarius during the spring equinox every 25,000 years or so. Modern astronomers, however, were not the first to make the difficult calculations to discover the length of this cycle. The Vedics were able to do this and came up with the value of 25,870 years. How these ancient people were able to make these calculations, however is "as great a mystery as the origin of life itself".

MelT

 

I agree wholeheartedly, that's why I'm posting. We're only now starting to realise how much information and understanding has been lost. I'm not a fan of the idea that ancient spacemen brought us our knowledge (though who's really to say?), but that it's impossible to know how far each independant civilisation reached in its understanding. Modern man is modern in name only.

It's how they made the deductions that go beyond just observation and record with no written language, no mathematics and no concept of zero that interests me. Obviously they had something...and we managed to 'lose' what they learned for the following 8,000 years!

What I also find interesting about the idea that they talked about the existence of other galaxies is that observation of the same was meant to be impossible for them. All the stars that we see in the night sky are within our own Galaxy, so there's no obvious indication that solar systems form into larger groups of stars. We can see a handful of distant galaxies with the naked eye, but it's impossible to resolve them into anything more than just smears of light, even with a basic telescope. We really weren't sure of the existence of other galaxies until 1926, as I said above.

The Sun also rings like a bell as a matter of interest, as well as wobbling on its axis like the earth does.

MelT