Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by la vie demain, Oct 2, 2007.

  1. I've downloaded it on a recommendation but have yet to watch it. However you can download it via bittorrent from their website http://zeitgeisthemovie.com/.
  2. Seen it before. And whilst it do get the astrotheological origins of religion correct, it then dwindles into rank stupidity when dealing with 9/11. Each and every claim made regarding the collapse of those buildings have been refuted. And in the last part we see why, this movie is made by conspiracy-theorists seeing illuminati just about round every corner.

    I'm not saying the current banking system is ideal, and the movie do a good job of explaining why (if you disregard the conspiracy angle). Though this is not a result of conspiracies, it is the result of the accumulative effect of unrestricted capitalism. This work much as gravity as seen in black holes. The bigger the black hole, the greater the attraction, and thus it grows further. Sucking up everything within its sphere of attraction.

    The banking system should be declared bankrupt (as it in effect is), and reconstructed on democratic terms. That is putting currency back into the control of the people, not the elites. Busting the black holes, and instead create many, smaller and viable suns, to keep things within the metaphor.

    As for false flag operations to further another agenda, well, yes. This is not new. It is called realpolitik. Massaging the naivite of the populace to reach some otherwize hard to swallow goal. The instruments of this is fear, patriotism and religion. But again, in the sense that it is a conspiracy, it is not an overarching one. It is isolated actions done by isolated groups in an isolated time-frame.

    Take 9/11 as an example. There is no doubt islamists was behind it. And in my opinion, the US was well informed of what was to transpire, but let it nonetheless. Why? Well, we can see why now, can't we?
  3. We did this one a little while ago, none of the supposed similarities between Horus and Jesus are true. There are VERY slight similarities in a Greek version of the story (appearing some 2,000+ years after the original) that was adapted and changed to create a form of Gnosticism, but it bears hardly any relationship to the original tale.

  4. Does it matter to the conclusion that the jesus myth is basically astrology in disguise?
  5. Hi Z'. To me, yes. I disagree with the conclusions almost in their entirety. Some of the links stated are tenuous at best. 3 Kings, Horus, Dec 25th reasoning, all kinds of other facts are unsupported nonsense.

    I am not, as I'm sure you're already aware, a christian, so my defence isn't based on my beliefs, just the desire for historical accuracy. As we both can point out a whole bag of inaccuracies in the film, it has to make you wonder about the validity of the rest of the content, so caution has to be used. I'm not saying that in there somewhere there's a germ of something, but most of what they talk about isn't it:)

    I found a series of good links about different aspects of the film. None of the below is my work, but the links are on the whole excellent. Every one is worth a visit:

    QUOTE: "Here is a great look at the ridiculous claims of most of the authors on that list (how they get away with this stuff is beyond rational thought)
    This is another that site handles the major deities and does so with tremendous references.
    I like the next site because no stone is left unturned in his search for more and more "Christ myths deities" to debunk, he has about 80 claims looked in to here:
    Because this movie spent so much time claiming the similarities of hours and Jesus here is a specific debunking to show how clearly uninformed in mythology and how easily duped the makers of this film are in making this claim.
    Now for Leedoms "Virishna" I wish there was more information to go on, but there is no such deity, at least in our earth's currently verifiable history. he apparently didn't bother with fact checking. Here is one account of the hunt for Virishna from an earlier source:


  6. Well, as you probably know, conspiracy theories consist of a grain of truth onto which a universe of conjecture is spun :D

    We humans are pattern seeking animals, to such a degree we see patterns when it is not really there.

    Still won't change my mind that religion is basically sun-worship in one form or another, and over the ages refined to a form of astrology disguised in mumbo-jumbo :)
  7. I agree. What really interests me is that despite it being such an easy film to debunk, just by looking at the real history on any sane archeaological site, nobody goes to look. There are now more sites promoting Horus as something he's never been and connections to jesus that aren't true, than real factual sites. People will read what they're fed, not what they have to hunt...Anybody could get the information below in less than a minute, and yet the film survives as a supposedly factual account. We humans are a lazy bunch.

    It's been a clever PR exercise though, I have to say:)

    Here's the birthof Horus, taken directly from egyptian texts. Note a stunning lack of 3 kings, a date, wise men, etc, etc. His life and death equally bear no relationships to the 'facts' stated by Zeitgeist.


    Thy sister [Isis] acted as a protectress to thee. She drove [thy] enemies away, 14 she averted seasons [of calamity from thee], she recited the word (or, formula) with the magical power of her mouth, [being] skilled of tongue and never halting for a word, being perfect in command and word. Isis the magician avenged her brother. She went about seeking for him untiringly.

    p. 104p. 105
    [paragraph continues] 15. She flew round and round over this earth uttering wailing cries of grief, and she did not alight on the ground until she had found him. She made light [to come forth] from her feathers, she made air to come into being by means of her two wings, and she cried out the death cries for her brother. 16. She made to rise up the helpless members of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence, and she made therefrom an heir. She suckled the child in solitariness and none knew where his. place was, and he grew in strength. His hand is mighty (or, victorious) within the house 17 of Keb, and the Company of the Gods rejoice greatly at the coming of Hours, the son of Osiris, whose heart is firmly stablished, the triumphant one, the son of Isis, the flesh and bone of Osiris. The Tchatcha 1 of Truth, and the Company of the Gods, and Neb-er-tcher 2 himself, and the Lords of Truth, gather together to him, and assemble therein. 3 18. Verily those who defeat iniquity rejoice 4 in the House of Keb to bestow the divine rank and dignity upon him to whom it belongeth, and the sovereignty upon him whose it is by right.

    This bare statement of the dogma of the conception of Horus does not represent all that is known about it, and it may well be supplemented by a passage from the Pyramid Texts, 1 which reads:

    "Adoration to thee, O Osiris. 2 Rise thou up on thy left side, place thyself on thy right side. This water which I give unto thee is the water of youth (or rejuvenation). Adoration to thee, O Osiris! Rise thou up on thy left side, place thyself on thy right side. This bread which I have made for thee is warmth. Adoration to thee, O Osiris! The doors of heaven are opened to thee, the doors of the streams are thrown wide open to thee. The gods in the city of Pe come [to thee], Osiris, at the sound (or voice) of the supplication of Isis and Nephthys. . . . . . . Thy elder sister took thy body in her arms, she chafed thy hands, she clasped thee to her breast [when] she found thee [lying] on thy side on the plain of Netat." END QUOTE

  8. i think i agree with zylark here, it's very astrological, and if you don't mind id like to see evidence on how horus and jesus aren't the same... seems to me like they share extremely close characteristics.

    ah nevermind just saw how you said "we"
    a link would be sweet.
  9. Ask and ye shall receive.

  10. If you visit any of the links above you'll see the evidence. If you still have any facts that you think link Horus and Jesus (there isn't a single one) I'd be happy to post links and evidence here to refute it.

  11. i still don't understand why horus and jesus don't have similar characteristics.... horus, was born of a virgin mary, performed miracles same as jesus, died and was resurrected after 3 days (there is more but i don't feel like typing them all), seems to me they have VERY similar characteristics, sorry if im not making sense though a lil blazed atm.

    But, i still got all these facts from zeitgeist, so i could be wrong :(
  12. I have to ask, why not go to the links here instead for the real facts? You asked for evidence and we've pointed you towards it, but you haven't read it, which is a bit odd?

    Zeitgeist is a con and full of lies from beginning to end. There is no connection at all between Jesus and Horus. Read the links and you'll see that he wasn't 'born of a virgin mary', didn't perform miracles, didn't teach, and wasn't resurrected after 3 days. Also Horus didn't have 12 disciples, wasn't crucified, wasn't born on the 25th of december, no wise men or kings present at his birth, his birth wasn't heralded by a star or Orion, he wasn't born in a cave, etc...All of which can be proven simply by reading the original egyptian texts, one of which (concerning his birth) is above.

    PLEASE, go to the links provided:)

  13. sorry, as i stated before, i was a lil blazed, i went to the link liquidtruth posted and i still didn't find a conclusive statement to the argument. ill check yours out.
  14. It seemed pretty conclusive to me. There are also links in that thread that show sources... So... What exactly are you looking for? There are more issues with Jesus then an imaginary link between Horus. Click Here. :)
  15. :) No worries, I have an appointment with some excellent bud very shortly....

    But what conclusive statement do you want? Everything said about Horus in Zeitgeist is provably wrong, point by point. Pick a supposed fact about him that you think is true and not covered by the above links? The egyptians themselves don't describe one of their own gods as Zeitgeist states they do, it's as cut and dried as that.

  16. So, what about the dozens of other Sun Gods mentioned in the film? It still doesn't debunk the fact that Jesus is a Sun God.

    Debunking Amen-Ra as identicle to Jesus still doesn't prove that the story of Jesus is not one based on astro-theological beliefs. Amen... lol.
  17. yall ever thought that maybe God created the universe in these patterns as part of a reviliation and different cultures over the years have seen them and made their own interpretations of them, producing many different storys and beliefs?
  18. I'm not disputing what JC was or wasn't. I am saying that everything regarding Horus in the film is wrong. Amen Ra has nothnig to do with Jesus either. I have seen the film, would you like to tell me how JC is a sun god, when none of the connections regarding egypt, hinduism, astrology or anything else in it are true or accurate? They even have their so-called astro-theology wrong too! Read about the origin of astrology in Babylon and you'll see how much nonsense this all is. Can you personally show anything in the film regarding any of the above that is correct? Please use sources outside of the Zeitgeist site to show this.

    Just about every other 'fact' in the film is wrong, therefore, their conclusions are based on fallacies and obvious mistruths. Mistruths that anyone with ten minutes to spare could find very easily. As this is the case, you have to wonder why the makers of the film didn't bother checking any of their facts? That seems to show an obvious desire to misinform and manipulate.

  19. BTW, another fallacy you're quoting above is the use of the word Amen. It has no connection to the Egyptian god Amun-Ra at all. Amun-Ra (also spelled Amen, Amoun, Amon), has a completely different meaning. See below, first for it's meaning in Egyptian, secondly for the real source of the word as we use it now in christianity from elsewhere:

    In Egypt:
    Quote: Amun's name is first recorded in Egyptian records as ỉmn, meaning "The hidden (one)".

    In Christianity:
    O.E., from L.L. amen, from Gk. amen, from Heb., "truth," used adverbially as an expression of agreement (e.g. Deut. xxvii.26, I Kings i.36; cf. Mod.Eng. verily, surely, absolutely in the same sense), from Sem. root a-m-n "to be trustworthy, confirm, support." Used in O.E. only at the end of Gospels, otherwise translated as Soðlic! or Swa hit ys, or Sy!. As an expression of concurrence after prayers, it is recorded from c.1230.

    The word is commonly said to be of a Hebrew origin. It is the Greecian theologians who introduced it in Western languages after the translation of the Bible. Then, it is adopted by the Arabs as it is used in the Koran revealed to their prophet in Arabic.

    In Kabyle (one of the various dialects of Berber), there is the phrase “am-in” that means synchronically, in common speech, “like that”. However, if we put “am-in” in the context of a prayer, it will clearly mean “so be it”; with “it” referring here to what has been said before. Notice the following example: “ad ig Rebbi yedder! Am-in” (May he live! Amen; i.e. may what has been said come true).END QUOTE

    Not a lot in favour of the film at all really....


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