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why there will never be a utopia

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by ugeman420, Jun 22, 2003.

  1. #1 ugeman420, Jun 22, 2003
    ok i got to thinking, can utopias exist?
    well heres my theory,
    Utopias cannot work because humans are too smart and therefore to greedy for utopias to work. Take communism for instance, equality where everyone does what they can and takes what they need. This seems like the ideal world, where violence would not exist and every man would work for the benefit of the whole, right? But then how come this doenst work, why can't we as humans make this happen? it all lies in human nature, we as humans are too intelligent, and we take advantage of ours in order to make our standards of living better. Our primary needs are easily met, but we take every chance we get to progress in social status and to make our lives easier. Think about it, we lie every day. Many of our jobs require us to lie and compete with one another in order to succeed in the real world.
    It is our nature to want more and to work less. If i lived in a communist society, i would take what I "need".... yea right. Give what i "can"... bullshit. If we as humans could make ourselves dumber, more naive, there would be no deception. There would be no need for tricking one another, no need to lie in order to help ourselves. If you really thought about it, having 5 year olds live in a utopian setting would work better than having adults do the same. The human brain is too developed, too smart for utopias. I've heard people say that they would love to live in a utopia and that they would act accordingly, but the truth is that as soon as they were given the opportunity, they would take advantage of whatever they could.
    yea thats basically what i think, you can all add your comments and such... peace
     
  2. #2 mmmmgood422, Jun 22, 2003
    this one will be fun to pick apart.

    "Utopias cannot work because humans are too smart and therefore to greedy for utopias to work"

    first off, humans are not too smart for jack shit. we are dumb as dirt and it is in our nature not in our intelligence that we are greedy.

    "Take communism for instance, equality where everyone does what they can and takes what they need.This seems like the ideal world, where violence would not exist and every man would work for the benefit of the whole, right? But then how come this doenst work, why can't we as humans make this happen? it all lies in human nature, we as humans are too intelligent, and we take advantage of ours in order to make our standards of living better."

    no the problem with communism is the cycle. when there is no motivation, no one will work, therefore no one will be provided with anything because there will be no labor. intelligence and nature are entirely different, nature weve got but intelligence we lack.

    "It is our nature to want more and to work less. If i lived in a communist society, i would take what I "need".... yea right. Give what i "can"... bullshit. If we as humans could make ourselves dumber, more naive, there would be no deception."

    if we were dumber and more naive we would be constantly decieved. you are thinking of this from only one side. yes if we were dumber we wouldnt deceive people, but we would also be decieved by others. and in reality not everyone will decline in intelligence at the same rate, therfore the smartest will survive and the stupid die. so esentially we cannot get dumber because of Darwinism.

    we will be the cause of our own downfall.
     
  3. #3 brian hobo, Jun 22, 2003
    go out into nature and camp for 3 days. that utopia.
     
  4. #4 RMJL, Jun 22, 2003



    I don't agree that we, as a whole, are dumb as dirt. Our nature might determine our greediness but our intelligence puts in into effect. "Dumb" people...no offense to "dumb" people, by the way...but "dumb" people can attempt to be greedy but their lack of intelligence will fuck it up for them somewhere along the way. People with high IQ's (or those with a horseshoe up their ass) can usually pull it off and become what some may call a part of the "elite." Greed will come back in some form to haunt them but the fact that their greed paid off in whatever way shows that thay aren't so much dumb as effective at what they do.



    I do agree that we will be our own downfall. Overpopulation is proving that as I type this. As far as us being dumb as dirt...I know too many highly intelligent people to give any type of credit to that statement.



    Getting to utopia...utopia involves a form of perfection and perfection only exists in our minds and not for long, at that. A perfect social and political state would indicate that we all had the same mindset and that's just eerie to me because we'd all be like sheep...not that we aren't already in a lot of ways but I don't want us to all be in agreement and thinking along the same lines as everyone else. What a boring fucking world that would be. I think that we can try to live in our own utopia...the utopia in our minds that we attempt to make real for us. One where we can achieve as much happiness and pleasure as we can without having to completely conform to the masses; an Epicurian type of utopia where the pursuit of pleasure is the only concern. Yeah, greed will come into play but if one's own greed haunts only them and no one else then what's the big fucking deal about being greedy, anyway?




    Then again...Brian Hobo knows what the hell he is talking about!!!!!! Camping in nature for three days is extremely utopic!!!!! :)
     
  5. #5 ugeman420, Jun 25, 2003
    mmmgood you have a point, but isn't it true that humans are the only species whom are "immune" (for lack of a better word) to "survival of the fittest". In a manner we have outsmarted evolution, because "survival of the fittest" no longer aplies to the human species. if someone is born retarded, we help them through life. White peopel can survive in africa without having to develop dark skin, those that are not as strong or smart still survive because nature no longer sets a standard for humans to reach. so if we were so dumb, then how have we outsmarted nature?
     
  6. #6 TooSicKs, Jun 25, 2003
    Utopia exists within the confines of one's own concept of existance. What is utopia to some is hell to others.

    There is no such thing as human nature as relates to a biological organism's interface with nature. we are so far removed from nature and corrupted that true human nature was lost when civilzation arose.

    I say hell yeah to darwinism. There's a lot of stupid people who need to not survive long enough to contribute to the dilution of the gene pool.

    Humans are the epitome of contradiction and hypocracy. I won't even start to rant on this one because likely i will fuckin' wig out of i start thinkin' about how fucked up shit is.

    There will never be a communal utopia, but some of us do live in our own personal utopia just as i do.

    Therfore:

    By it's formal definition utopia is itself a vernacualr contradiction and does little but to highlight the hypocritical mindset that society depends on to function

    However:

    If utopia is "internalized" meaning that you actively choose to live a utopian lifestyle, and free yourself from the chains of the mind, then yes, there will be a utopia. One way to do this is to live a monastic-like existence. Deny the vices of capitalism, live simple, and life is easy. Just do your thing, do what you need to survive, and lessen your participation in capitalist society. It's actually not that hard of a thing to do.

    Peace
     
  7. #7 mmmmgood422, Jun 25, 2003
    "mmmgood you have a point, but isn't it true that humans are the only species whom are "immune" (for lack of a better word) to "survival of the fittest". In a manner we have outsmarted evolution, because "survival of the fittest" no longer aplies to the human species. if someone is born retarded, we help them through life. White peopel can survive in africa without having to develop dark skin, those that are not as strong or smart still survive because nature no longer sets a standard for humans to reach. so if we were so dumb, then how have we outsmarted nature?"

    actually i think we are perfectly subject to survival of the fittest darwinism. retards dont live to be 100, it took millions of years for people in africa to develop black skin. if you are smart enough and lucky enough to work your way with financial issues and medical issues you will live longer. a wise old man will live longer than a dumb old man.
    im sure we havent outsmarted nature. it always will rule us. burning fossil fuels and car exhaust are hurting nature, and in turn injuring ourselves. but i dont have to tell you that. we are using up nonrenewable energy sources quick and we are gonna be in deep shit soon. we are not outsmarting nature, and essentially it will come back to kill us.
     
  8. #8 Locus, Jun 26, 2003
    well to put it simply..there's just too much difference in opinion in the world ;)
     
  9. #9 KraziHare, Jun 26, 2003
    Though we are not all 'dumb as dirt', it's not anything remotely close to intelligence that creates greed.

    As mmmmgood422 suggested, it's in our nature rather than our intelligence to do what's best for the person rather than the society.

    Survival of the fittest once forced progress upon us. Whoever was most able to survive and prosper got to have their traits passed on. Now that we're intelligent the fact that we still rely on survival of the fittest is a bit disturbing.

    I'm not talking about running around killing anyone weaker than ourselves, but we do have cities, buildings, cars, and most importantly for my point; money.

    Capitalism is essentially an intelligent form of survival of the fittest with resources, or it should be. If things worked correctly we would all start out with an equal chance, the stupid and weak would diminish and the smart and quick would prosper. But because of things like nepotism and self preservation the system becomes perverted and makes it so that there are people with money and power who are quite unfit for it.

    Imagine this; somewhere in a family line a man leads a succesful life and collects a large sum of money and resources, all because he was spawned by an above average set of genes. His son, having a pampered life because of his fathers work, will get things like a superior education but will lack most of the life skills others learn through trial and error. Not to mention that he will get a larger chunk of all available resources than most else whether or not his genes are truly superior.

    It wasn't intelligence that ruined socialism, it was basic, simple, human nature. Which has been proven to be surmountable in the past.
     
  10. #10 Sprinkler, Jun 28, 2003
    I think it's because of technology they're never's gonna be an utopia. Look at bees. Communism! They work their asses off to keep their breed alive. No greed.
    Just organized power, and no ego's. Aren't bees relatively dumb? They can organize though, like ants.
     
  11. #11 adamBC, Jun 29, 2003

    it may sound odd too you, but all the carbon dioxide in the ozone will in the future be a saviour of life itself (although only the most basic life forms will be left by the time this takex place.)



    the thick carbon will keep the worlds oceans from escaping into outer space, thus giving life an extra aprox. 500,000 years more, but after that, it will soon be engulfed by an ever expanding sun.
     
  12. #12 Digit, Jun 29, 2003
    its not the fault of technology anyways thats for fucking sure.

    i see why people may think that though from looking at technology. but as ever this is only the surface, dig deaper and we see that it is the motives and drive for technology that need to be rectified. the vast majority of our technological advances come from war and military developement. and under the shroud of capitalism all technology has to turn a profit.
    if we had technological development under a socialist, communist free society we would see how technology can be developed unhindered by the constraints of money. how it could develope for the good of the people, the good of the world, and all its inhabitants.

    as long as things keep going the way they are, with america spending as much on military budget (with the 16% increase i think i heard somewhere) as the next 4 biggest military budgets put together (and so very close to equal that which the rest of teh whole world spends on "war" & "defence", many of whom get their military funding from america anyway!)... we will never see utopia, if this continues.

    blame america. blame the right wing capitalist power hungry warmongers who stole america from the freedom loving people of america.




    ... ahhh... that felt good... i needed a little rant and release.
     

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