Basically I want to know why Jesus was necessary for mankind. God (the Christian God) is all powerful and all knowing and whatnot. So why did it need to become half human and get tortured and die? Obviously the purpose of this was to give humanity a way to be forgiven for their sincs but my question is why the Hell did that need to be done in that fashion. Being all powerful couldn't God have originally said,"Hey ya'll just have faith in me and ya'll git inter Heaven." But no, he waits 4000 years, before impregnating some girl, without asking first, and then did some cool things, said some cool things and got messed up, died, rose again, and only then could humanity be accepted into Heaven. Some people say that people still got into Heaven by sacrificing things to absolve them of their sins but if God wasn't all about that (which it isn't since he did the Jesus thing) why did he wait 4000 years before he had humanity stop a practice he deems foolish. It just doesn't jive with me. It like God creates man and sets up rules for him so that man can get into Heaven after killing a few goats and fruits (and not using them) and then all of a sudden God changes his mind and goes,"Ho man that's a stupid way to determine if people can enter Heaven I think I'll let people kick my ass for a while, and then I'll let 'em into Heaven in my NEW and IMPROVED way." Meh, just seems pointless and contradictory to the whole all knowing and therefore unable to change his mind since no new evidence is presented to change it.
i'm not sure where the whole 4000 year thing comes from...maybe creationists who don't believe the world is older than that, which they get from following the geneology in the bible. which doesn't make much sense, and ignores science...but that's not the point here. i asked the question you're asking for a long time. i never got a decent answer, so i did my own paper on it in college. then i realized the reason no one gave me a decent answer: there isn't one. the best i could come up with is we can't understand the reason god does the things he does, since we can't see his full plan, etc. there is certainly more to this, but that is the basic idea. that's supposed to be where the power of faith comes in, that there's this seemingly illogical act that we don't fully understand, but we should putting faith in god shows our devotion to his will. not a satisfying answer huh? i don't think so either.
Yes, it is quite ridiculous. The same all-knowing God obviously knew some people were going to hell before they were even created, since he knows everything, which means people are damned for all eternity prior to the fact they are born. The other thing I cannot understand, and I have posted about this before, is the role Judas had in Jesus' death. God knows before hand that he is 'sending his son down to die for us.' So why the hell did he need someone to essentially become the 'greatest sinner of all time' in order for this 'forgiveness' shit to take place. Judas betrays Jesus, and he is crucified. My question is, why the hell is Judas the greatest sinner ever? Didnt' he HAVE to do this in order for the whole 'save our sin' shit to take place? If he doesn't do this, Jesus isn't crucified, or at least it doesn't happen the way it supposedly did. Shouldn't Judas be considered like the MVP of this event? Damnit that pisses me off.
Judas was apparently Jesus' closest disciple. Perhaps only somone he loved as much as he loved Judas, could perform such a task. The disciples were ordinary men, any one of them could have done what Judas did. More likely Judas was chosen. As to the "Why Jesus?" thing, I'm not even going to go there right now. Too much bothers me about the question. For instance; folk glibly say things like "God is all-powerful", or "God is All-Knowing", and imagine "He" ponders and thinks as we humans do, but they haven't thought about it... "All-Powerful" means there is no power outside God, He is ALL POWER. All power, all energy happening anywhere, of every magnitude is within God. Same for the other three basic tenants of God's "capabilities". Now consider the Jesus thing. -mu
hahaha. I agree...Judas is the coolest person ever. Without him, the story would fall short, and yet, even that nobody, Jabez, gets more praise than he...I would have kept Judas' book in there that might've have spiced things up a bit.
First thing to remember when talking about christianity and its tenants, is that there were no actual jesus as described in the bible. It's entirely a myth constructed decades after the supposed death of the main character. Originally jesus (as per st. Paul) was not a flesh and bones character but a metaphysical manifestation of god. Later gospelwriters built upon the st. Paul narrative fleshing out various aspects and amongst other things established that the jesus character must have walked the earth so to speak. Oh, and they threw in various miracles and stuff to make their story more "believable" to a highly supersticious crowd. Can't have a son of god without some godlike miracles going on can we? Basically they spun further on the (greco/roman) Mithras mythos and fused it with jewish faith to make a new theology that had a better chance of not beeing persecuted by the Roman empire who at the time couldn't rid themselves fast enough of jewish leaders/priests (the same really, as Israel was a theocracy) in occupied Palestine. But enough history lessons. The jesus myth is also a logical abbhoration. As have been said by other posters, it just does not make any sense. Unless ocfourse you interpret the story as a schism within contemporary jewish faith and powerstructures to adapt to a new situation, roman occupation. The most glaring nonsense of the story is that faith in jesus is supposed to rid oneself from original sin. Now unless one believe quite literally that the Adam & Eve story is true, original sin does not exist. And from a scientific point of view, backed by mountains of evidense, the Adam & Eve story, cannot possibly be true. The jesus myth also undermines the notion of an all powerfull god. Why send yourself down to earth to be tortured, when all one has to do as an omnipotent god is to say make an example of the nonbelievers. Like the vengefull despotic psychotic megalomaniac god of the old testament did. You know the myths of razing cities, drowning the world, letting jews rape and pillage at whim. Stuff like that. Certainly a more hands-on approach befitting an all powerfull beeing who likes to micromanage. But I guess that is the point of religion. It doesn't need to make any sense. All it needs to do is convince gullible people to believe in the outrageous without evidense in order to uphold a theocratic powerstructure without awkward questions beeing asked. Better then to have nonsensical scripture to base it all upon, seeing as it can be interpreted any way you wish to support whatever you want.
Now we have an irony sandwich! God does not have a personality! He didn't send anything, He created a Universe, is the Universe, THE INFINITE, all things, and nothing. Personality is a human thing, like time and space, all these "events", history, etc. A Universe has laws. Nothing is outside that. He doesn't need to intervene, He is. Jesus was "just a man". But he came, and crucially, came at a time and place that needed such a man. As well as having great timing, he also had an aggresive, bloodthirsty and imaginative marketing campaign, inquisitions and what-not, but that wasn't his doing, being long dead. We realise now that much of what we believed about this man is doubtless myth, religious propoganda and population control, but so much about Jesus is remarkable, too. There have been other men and women, at different times and places, who's presence, no matter how fleeting or well-documented, nevertheless made an astonishing impact on their circle of friends/country/world. Religion comes later, and its birth seems to me the point at which the truth of its teachings starts into decline. Humans healing with their mind isn't so miraculous, in that we can all do it. Some, really well. To attribute these gifts to some "Divine Power", is to deny humans that very power. Some humans know better. Others than Christians recognize Jesus as a "master", but somehow manage to avoid being hooked on the emotional crutch of religion. We can't let the stories obscure the reality of things, not here in the Twenty-First Century, with all this information and resources at our disposal, access to inumerable doctine, and an urgent need to know. But we can't straight out ignore the stories, either. Stories are important. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me", or something like that. And folk waddle up with their child-like notion of Jesus as some kind of God-Creature, standing in between us and the Man Himself. There is no separation! The Catholic church would have us believe that, in His absence, they control Jesus' "mission" on earth, and will gladly accept cash for the right to forgive your sins! Something that more and more looks to me like Jesus intended for you to work out with the Boss, directly. Maybe what Jesus, and others like him, are saying is, "THIS is how to do it. THIS is how to perfect yourself, achieve enlightenment, Nirvana, bliss, the way, the path, to one-ness, (interesting word; at-one-ment). Even if *gasp* he's no more than a story, he's a good and clever story, and that's what's important, though of course it does depend on how you read the story. Everyone is unique, has their own path. As Digit said here recently, "The map is not the terrain". He provided a map. Maybe all Jesus is really saying is... Look, you are all Jesus! If you would just get your head out of your arse and realize it! And because that's easier said than done, we have Time. -mu
nicely put -mu. could one of you who is discrediting the whole thing, show me what would have happened had that whole jesus episode not happened, then maybe i'll be closer to accepting your "reasoning". if u wanna discredit the whole thing, there are better ways of going about it. more convincing. based more on deconstructive arguments. more than simply a voicing of disbelief. hehe. well, it seems like little more than something i was harkin on about a few threads ago... getting caught up in one's take on the messenger, so much so, that it clouds all reciept or reccognition of the message. sure sure, when i was five i remember discrediting the whole bible/christianity thing too, dismissing it, "Jesus is nothing more than a fictional character in a storybook called the bible" - the words of a 5 year old Digit (though i had never called myself that back then), but then, like Calvin (of "& Hobes" fame) said, it's best to keep people's expectations low, then it's easier to impress them. the various churches lacked this approach and over sold it before people even had the first taste, and so, it's a big messenger to overlook to get the messages.
Talking about timing, which I was, it's interesting that the old Jesus fitted the needs of the time perfectly, and in the 20th century a whole new Jesus is discovered, more or less fitting the needs of today's people. A Jesus who is "unsponsered and free", as one reviewer of the Gospel of Thomas put it. -mu
bugger, and i thought u were jokin about a double act in that other thread. only with that last post did i realise the reality of our double act.
Now me, see, I see things differently from your average Bob, and when I hear stuff like "Feeds the five thousand with a fish and five loaves" or whatever it was, I thinks to myself... "so, he taught them about chewing, and thankfulness, and visualising and shit, super-feeding" and enjoy the story, make an oath to do my bit when I gets the chance. Girl of 5 and her parents, I say "When A Yogi thinks about putting food in his body; eating; he considers only three things!" I pause here, for effect. "Nutrition" She accepts this. "Nutrition" Eh? And... "Nitrition!!!" (riotous laughs) There will not come a time in her life when she puts food in her mouth and doesn't consider its nutrition, which is a great start. Have I performed a miracle? Maybe, if you think about it. You could do exactly the same thing. Am I Jesus? Erm, no. But I could do exactly the same things, and more. Given time. -mu ps.. the double-act is already a real thing, it just happened!
So you guys are saying Jesus didn't live?? Or Jesus Did live but wasn't the Son of God? I think these are all just opinions. I don't think you can say Jesus wasn't the Son of God or didn't live anymore than I would say Jesus DOES live and IS the Son of God. I don't need physical proof to believe in something greater than I. I have Faith that God directs me closer to him as long as I shall receive him. Personally, I don't see how people can Not believe in God. Too me yall are all crazy. Just thinking about how perfectly Earth is positioned; close enough to the sun to keep us warm, yet far enough to keep us from burning, is all the proof I need. One day soon Everyone will know the Truth. And those who already know will be set free soon enough .
and if i told you i am the son of god, would you believe it? what if i wrote it down and also wrote down all the miraculous things i've done? by your line of reasoning, there isn't a reason that you should not believe me. such things as position of the earth, complexities of reality, etc. might make you think that proves the existence of god, but this doesn't in any way prove the validity of jesus christ's claims.
Nice. If the world restarted tomorrow, and everyone didn't know jack shit about anything, after careful review, God and Jesus would be dismissed just as Zeus and Thor are today. Just no reason to believe this ancient BS, we are smarter than that now.
Jesus was only a tool, a tool to connect us humans to the divine, because psychologically us humans cannot go on living without having something to relate to in which we want to believe. Without something tangible that we can "fall back" to then the whole idea of religion would have probably died out a long long time ago. With just about every major religion is there a certain figure in history seen as "angelic" or whatever you want to call it, because any story teller will know that without a protangonist their book would be a bore. Drama at it's best.
who said either? HOORAY! HOO RAY! WHO RAY! Who ray? seems like enlightenment to me. again, i think it comes down to comunication and definition. alot of muddying has gone on through the ages. yes, and if it werent we wouldnt be here to say such things so it becomes a mute point. those who know the truth will be set free soon enough!? are they not free already? heck, sounds to me like someones being fucked with, on the promise of freedom under an illusion of truth. the truth indeed sets us free, and if you have truth you are already free. are we not all avatars of "god"? is it not so that we are all born of the same great one? see, i'd rather talk about the brahman, or the primordial force and other things that are much better defined for purposes of purposeful meaningful comunication than "god". -edit- just saw this while surfing old threads: which is why i found it worthy to continually poke those who would not question their own. "their own" being faith, belief, opinions, prejudices, views, perceptions, assumptions, etc. the quote was from Rasta_Man.
So Shouse, are you implying that everyone else is going to burn in Hell? Am I going to burn in Hell? I honestly want to know. I believe in God, and I believe Jesus Christ existed. Historically speaking, he did. But I don't subscribe to the idea that God tortures and kills people and sends them to Hell because they don't accept Jesus Christ. Vengeance is a sin. To not forgive is a sin. So how can you subscribe to the idea that a vengeful God will unforgivingly send you to Hell if you don't believe his human son died so that you would be relieved of your sins? I agree with mu that God is everything. He is truly omnipotent. Why do you try to streamline what God is? Is it to make it easier to comprehend? Because to me it just complicates things. It's easier for me to believe that God is in everything, but he doesn't have some mad psychopathic desire to destroy and condemn those who don't follow him. Why would a loving God do that? So does that mean I'm going to Hell? Because I don't believe exactly the same way you would have me believe?
Maybe because we otherwise consider believing in God as mad behavior. In any other case, believing without evidence is considered ridiculous. With Christianity (as well as some others), it is 'holy.' Also, science just happens to discredit almost everything in the Bible. Why believe this? Hmmm well because we actually have evidence... Faith is going to destroy mankind.