What would the USA be like if Libertarians ran the show ?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by SmokinP, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. This was a public fire department. They weren't operating as a private one would, but as the state dictated them to. They are primarily funded through tax dollars, so regardless of how they perform they will continue to receive revenue.

    A private fire department wouldn't be so crazy as to deny service to a willing customer.
     
  2. How can taxes be "theft" "coercion" "force" etc..?

    Surely the fact you reside in the US is a contract of sorts...

    If you drive on a road with an automatic toll (cameras read your car reg number and you have 24 hours to pay the fee) as we have here in Ireland then you are entering into a contract and have to pay the business owner the fee..
    If you dont want to enter into this contract you dont drive on that road.

    So how is it "theft" etc.. if you have entered into a contract of sorts by staying in the US ?
    If you dont want to pay the fee (taxes) then you are free to leave.:confused:
     





  3. What if your house was on fire and the dept showed up and told you that the fee just went from $75 to $750? :eek:

    People pay taxes to receive public services and the county should be required to provide fire dept services county wide.

    Maybe the county should not be required to provide any fire or police services and it should all be turned over to the feds.

    Maybe I should bill all my neighbors now so that if their house is ever on fire they can use my phone to call 911. :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. You must not know what a contact is. Contracts are not signed simply because you reside in a certain area (or were born in a certain area), especially if that contract was written before you were born. Contracts are a mutual agreement usually written down. I never agreed to have 25% of my paycheck taken by the government.
     


  5. You have being availing of services provided by the US government since you were born.
    This could be seen as accepting the terms of the contract..

    You do have a choice.
    If you dont want to pay the taxes then break the contract by leaving.
     

  6. Yes you did. It's called a W2 form.
     
  7. I never agreed to a contract. If the government didn't want me to use their supposed services, then they shouldn't have provided them to me. And no, this can't be seen as accepting a contract. If you offer someone a service on the street, you can't demand payment afterwards and expect them to actually pay you; unless of course you use force, in which case it's not a contract/mutual agreement.

    No, I don't have a choice actually. I don't have the means to leave. I don't have the ability to break this non-existent contract right now. Sorry. The "get up and leave" argument isn't valid. Time to try again to justify the debunked social contract theory.
     

  8. And if I don't fill it out, what happens?
     


  9. There's no where else to leave to though... we made this country the way it is so that we wouldn't have to leave if we felt oppressed.

    And by we I mean libertarians.
     


  10. One day you come home and discover your house on fire so you call private fire company A and after navigating a large labrynth phone menu you reach a person and request emergency assistance.

    The voice on the phone says "I'm sorry but, our systems show that you have not payed your $75.00 fee"

    You say "No, I paid by credit card, I paid the fee. "

    The voice on the phone says "I'm sorry sir, is there anything else I can do to help?"

    After your house burns to the ground private fire company A discovers that you did indeed pay your 75 bucks and kindly offers you a full refund for allowing your house and all your stuff to burn to ashes

    Have you never called the cable company?

    Ever had to call the phone company after they shut you off by mistake?

    :smoking:
     

  11. Then you don't have a job. That's how contracts work. If you don't agree to the terms, then you don't get what you want anyway.
     

  12. No, no. Let's say I work for Employer A. Employer A doesn't file the forms to take out taxes from my paycheck and puts it on me to pay my taxes. I don't file my tax return. I decide to keep everything I earned that year from Employer A.

    What exactly will happen to me? Employer A isn't going to fire me for not paying my taxes. Let's say my employer is sympathetic to my situation since he knows how much I need the money. What will happen to me when I don't send in the correct forms to the IRS?
     
  13. #113 SmokinP, Oct 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2010
    Debunked by who ?

    As i said earlier if you drive on an automatic toll road then you have to pay the toll. There are signs that warn you of this before you start to use said road.

    As you grow up in the US you learn about taxes. Before you start working in the US you are very aware that you will have to pay taxes on your wages.
    If you do not want to enter into a contract with the US then do not get a job and move somewhere else..

    Its fairly straight forward to me man..

    It is not force, theft or coercion..
     
  14. #114 Shade, Oct 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2010
    Honestly, I can't remember ever having my phone or cell phone services shut down because of a supposed lack of payment or mistake on behalf of the company.

    With electronic billing capabilities what they are these days, I imagine it's actually rather difficult to miss any kind of subscription fee.

    I also imagine that, in the case of privatized fire protection services, a service as inefficient and antithetical to customer friendliness as you've described above would not last very long in a competitive market.

    Yes, it is.

    Coerce: to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition

    Theft: the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another

    It is theft because of the coercive nature of it. It is also perceived as partial slavery, in a sense. The fact that Americans went to war against the British Empire because of similar coercive taxation speaks volumes. If we consider history and the philosophical values which invigorated the revolutionaries, it is nonsensical that we went to war to be free from such taxation only to institute a similar form of such taxation on ourselves.
     
  15. If you don't pay your taxes, then you're the one who's broken the contract. You are held responsible for that.

    Accepting employment and voluntarily using services paid for by tax dollars IS your contract. No one is forcing you to work in the United States. Our infrastructure is what allows you to be paid more than 90% of the people in this world in the first place. You don't get to take advantage of that without paying for it.

    There are ways to legally avoid paying taxes in this country. But that means giving up a lot of things that you probably aren't willing to give up.
     

  16. People who understand what a contract is and how modern governments operate. You want me to actually start naming people who reject social contract theory?


    Fine...I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with them taking a percentage of my wages just because I live in a certain area.


    As if that makes it a contract. Just because you're aware of the incoming theft does not make it a contract. If I see a mugger running at me, don't run away, have my money taken from me by force, I didn't engage in a contract with the mugger. I'm telling you this social contract theory is complete horse shit. You're not going to get anywhere with it.


    How? I don't have enough money to move outside the United States. And I'm a US citizen. Where do you suppose I move to?


    As it is to me. The government takes my money by force every single time I pay taxes.


    Yes, it is....
     

  17. The US was built by tax payments.
    All the public services etc.. are paid for with taxes...

    By staying you are agreeing to the terms of the government...

    You could always move to Somalia Aaron...:D
     
  18. #118 Arteezy, Oct 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2010
    Except that I never entered a contract...

    No, it isn't... A contract is a mutual agreement. I never entered a contract with the government. Simply being born in an area and living in that area doesn't enter you into a contract.

    Yes, they are. I have no means of leaving. I have no way of surviving if I don't work.

    lol... I never entered a contract. Keep claiming that I did. I'll be waiting for you to produce this contract with my signature on it. Until then, don't expect any more responses regarding this ridiculous topic.

    That doesn't change the fact that it's theft... Just because you can avoid having money taken from you doesn't make it not theft. If I never leave my house, the mugger on the street never would've taken my money! YOU SHOULDVE NEVER LEFT YOUR HOUSE DURRRR! By walking on the street, you engaged in a contract with the mugger and you agreed to give him a portion of whatever property you had on you at the time.

    Your argument is invalid as demonstrated above. Taxes are theft. Get over it. They're taken by force. Those who don't pay are prosecuted, fined, sometimes imprisoned, sometimes have property taken from them, sometimes have their house raided, etc.
     
  19. What about people who pay little to no tax yet still reap the benefits of others paying taxes?

    Why are those other people entitled to a chunk of my money?
     

  20. Let me guess who ?

    Hmmmm...

    Fellow Libertarians ?:)
     

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