What is this? Frustrated Big Time! PLS HELP!!

Discussion in 'Coco Coir' started by coonjas, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. #1 coonjas, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012
    Hya blades...
    on my 4th grow and having the same problem over and over again..... Caused my end product to be small and very airy...Tried everything I could think of and always come back to the same problem...
    What exactly is this and why?? How to fix it??

    On veg all my plants always grow like crazy, really green and healthy with no problem whatsoever... on early flower everything is always perfect with buds forming firmly and steadily. This always happen on flowering @ 3-6 weeks then continue to deteriorate from there.

    Here is the schedule:
    - Coco washed till less than 50 ppm
    - 1 tblspn dolomite & bat guano /gal mixed with coco
    - chunky perlite 25-40%
    - 2.5 gal pots
    - Maxibloom
    - Roots excelurator
    - Calmag plus
    - Pro tekt silica
    - drip clean
    - tap water
    - PH range from 5.6-5.9
    - Final PPM (hanna) after everything is 1200-1500.
    - Co2 supplement
    - Room temp 77F
    - Never flush nor half dose nute water, but i got drip clean on the water..

    flood to drain method

    I have asked the same question before, but none of the answers helped me.......Tried everything man.... Could anyone identify what exactly is the problem here...

    Please help me, I really am frustrated by this.... :mad:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. #2 cheecha, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012
    I use tap water and when I rocked KISS(maxibloom) it really was simple mang..I never once used anything besides maxi..So IMO drop the CM+, drop excelerator,drop DC since you flood to drain..
    Some peeps use 50/50 maxi grow/maxibloom for the first couple of weeks..
    That said, I didn't use KISS in coco, but rocked it with RW and Hydroton..worked good..
    Many peeps do use it in coco with success..How much are you feeding of each product?
    Try dropping all the non-essentials and see how your ladies react, savvyy!.
    Oh and definitely drop the organic stuff dude..
    As usual m2cents..
    Good luck!..
     
  3. Mate, if you're having the same problem over and over again, why don't you simplify your grow??

    The plant looks burned. My guess is silica on top of all the other shit is the cause. When you use any silicon product you need to scale back the rest of what you're putting in. Some people recommend just using the silicon in between feeds. But the truth is, you're using that much other stuff it could literally be anything. The EC in itself doesn't look that high, but man, this is the wrong approach to feeding/growing.

    Coco is simple as it gets. There is no need whatsoever to add guano. That will only break down over time and turn your moderate 1.5 EC into something much higher in the substrate. No need for dolomite either. Get rid. It's a myth.

    Get a bag of quality coco, put your plant in it, and feed it a simple base nute.

    If your final product is airy and light it's either because you're using too much nitrogen, or because your plant has burned and isn't living up to its potential.

    So many growers try to boost and turbo charge their grows with all number of special ingredients, and all they end up doing is slowing them right down. What's the point in that?
     
  4. What kind of lights are you using? The only time I have seen really really airy bud is when it was flowered under cfls... I'm still fairly new to growing so maybe someone with a little more experience could shed some truth on this or disprove?

    I hope you get it figured out. Even if it is the light, I would still scale back on some things... Try aquaponics, I've never grown before this year and my first big setup is goin great so far.
     
  5. If a plant's unhealthy it won't matter what light or system you use.
     
  6. They look hungry and deficient, probably nitrogen and possibly to a lesser extent potassium, both of which which can cause yellowing, intermittent yellowing, and eventually browning leaves.. through early bloom, they still have high nitrogen and reasonable potassium requirements. Besides the little you did to amend the medium, what have you been feeding them lately (besides the Maxibloom)?


    There's also the chance that your environment/ventilation becomes insufficient once your plant/s have outgrown it, but if you're using CO2 properly then that shouldn't be as much of an issue.. still, it's a possibility.


    PH & PPM /EC of the run-off?
     
  7. roasted......toasted and burnt to a crisp

    ya dont need all that extra stuff in your coco, the dolomite and guanos

    drop the ca/mg, maxi has PLENTY
    drop the drip clean, its snake oil
    drop the silica, i never saw a difference when using it and not using it

    12-1500ppm is way to high also. i, personally, never run over 900

    are you using the 7grams maxibloom per gallon?

    when i ran w/ maxibloom, the full 7grams was a bit to much for most of my strains. i ended up just using the small side of the scoop that comes in the bag. my strains responded to that much much better

    id also suggest running your ph anywhere from 5.8-6.1
     
  8. #8 BadKittySmiles, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012



    I use guanos in my blends at about a quarter to a half tsp per gallon of medium, I've done so in coco and peat based blends for years. If you don't use a wide enough variety, they can cause deficiencies and imbalances that certainly resemble burning...



    I'll continue with a bit of what I do, since I have a moment and I've been growing in both pure coco, and coco/peat blends for about a decade now...


    When I amend my coco, and peat blends (both of which, in separate pots, were used in the room below), I usually add very small amounts of Mexican type Bat Guano for N, Seabird Guano for N & P, and a blend of humic acid, feather, fish, blood and bone meals for NP & K, and rather than using dolomite to increase my ph, for coco which is already fairly neutral, and for limed or ph-increased peat, I add a quarter tsp per 2 gallons of my medium, of organic soil acidifying elemental sulfur. This helps to keep the ph down where my plants like it, and lightly supplements their sulfur requirements.
    Then they get pure water, or light teas (or in some cases, very light bottled inorganic nutes), until bloom. I also add a few drops per gallon of food grade silica once or twice a month, or when I can afford it, I'll grab budlink silica.


    This is how my little breeder room looks, with plants in 1 - 3 gallon pots, with more guano and amendments to begin with, and at (what I'm guessing is) roughly the same period in bloom the OP's ladies are in... 3 weeks veg, a little over 2, or 2.5 weeks 12/12.


    [​IMG]



    Then I finish up with either bottled nutes by Dutch Master in the winter for my own meds, if I didn't freeze or make enough 'teas' or if bottled nutes are just what I'm in the mood for (don't tell the organic guys! :p I still keep and set aside enough organic supplements for my patient donations), or I'll continue by adding top dressings or by scratching guanos into the surface of the medium at least a few inches away from the stalk, and by using teas and fermented plants and common weeds, sometimes called 'Dynamic Accumulators'..


    You can get away with an entire grow with just those weeds alone, if you go out picking enough when they're most abundant, for a truly natural veganic growing experience (You heard right, that means 100% free nutes!! Well, minus a $3 bottle of molasses. It's especially easy to gather enough with a smaller room and number of plants to tend to). If you have a big freezer, or a shed for storage, you can make enough tea and store enough extra foraged plant matter, to get you through the winter in a cold climate.



    Anyhow, that's what I do, and it's never backfired on me! :)
     
  9. I say it looks under-fed or deficiant not burned. I think maybe your Ph tester needs to be calibrated? Once you go below 5.5 you get lock out.

    I use coco , always have. I had that same look to my plants. Turns out my Ph pen was waaayyyy off , about 2 points.

    This can also happen if you let your coco dry all the way out.

    My tap watter sucks so I use R.O. water. In the case of RO watter you do need calmag but not in tap.

    Silica just protects the roots, am I wrong ? It's not actually a nutrient. Is it ?
     
  10. #10 TheWatcher, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012
    There's nothing wrong with using guano, worm shit, rockdust, teas etc, if you're striving for an organic grow.

    But when you're using chemical nutes and your only concern is to get a healthy grow under your belt because all your previous have failed, then without doubt it's better to scale down to the bare essentials.

    None of those things are essential in any way to maintain a grow at optimal health in coco, where only the most basic regime is necessary. I've grown in my own organic mix before with no problems, but really, if being 100% organic isn't the head of your priorities, and just getting your plants through to the end in good shape is all that matters, then a single bottle of nutes will do fine and leave less margin for error.
     
  11. With regards to whether it's under fed or burned, there's no way it's hungry for nitrogen. It's impossible for a plant to look like that with basic N deficiency. You can completely rule that out. Potassium is possible... possible but it's highly unlikely you will ever see a single macro element deficiency unless you have created a lockout problem by messing round with something you shouldn't have.
     
  12. It's possible if his PH is way off and has locked out Cal or MG then a number of deficiencies can occur. Once the PH hits 5.5 or lower Mag gets locked out and then you start getting all sorts of issues. And above 6.0 P and Pk get locked out.

    I am not saying this is his issue , but just to check his meter to make sure its calibrated.

    I am color blind , so I have to rely on a meter , but I know my mix so well I no longer need it. But sometimes I still double check myself. And always right on at 5.8 :)

    Good luck my friend I hope you get it figured out.
     
  13. #13 BadKittySmiles, Jul 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012

    Impossible how, exactly?


    Plants need nitrogen throughout the entire growth process, even towards the middle and end of bloom. If the amount of total nutrition available to the plant is out of balance, they will display everything from lock-out to a deficiency in whatever they are getting in the least abundance.

    An organic form of nitrogen (that may actually have been more phosphorous, depending on the guano source..) that is nearly depleted, combined with triple the phosphorous and potassium contained in a bottled in-organic nutrient, is a recipe for a nitrogen deficiency too early in bloom.


    We also don't know what his run-off PH is, to gauge for potential lock-out complications.


    If we're reading his original post right, and the only nitrogen he's added was in the form of a guano that he used to amend the medium, and if the only food they're getting now, and have been since, is something like a 4 - 15 -14 or a 5 - 15 - 14 (I believe that's around Maxibloom's NPK) they are very likely nitrogen deficient, among other things... a few examples below;


    The OP's plants;

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    And notice the yellowing and brown tips, in the photos below;

    [​IMG]


    This may help the OP if he can identify a pattern from the whole plants, that we're not able to see ...

    [​IMG]




    According first to the photos of the plants he has provided, and secondly if we are getting a complete picture of the food he's supplied his plants, then they are very definitely hungry for some nitrogen (and could probably also cut back on the PK, to prevent unneeded salt build-up). :)
     
  14. #14 TheWatcher, Jul 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2012
    Well without any doubt I'm more than willing to let you guide this one then, and ask the OP to simply find a nitrogen source and add it in on top of what he's already putting in now. That is a sure fire way to see whether that is the issue. I am 100% sure that if he does that, he will see his plants completely burn over the coming weeks.

    I know Nitrogen is in pretty high demand during the stretch period of 12/12, you don't need to school me on that, with all due respect.

    I can only assume that since you use blood and bone that you are hardly ever seeing what a nitrogen deficiency looks like, as someone using bottle feeds as their only source of food - in which case a small amount under the required ec will show signs immediately - would be familiar with.

    The guide pictures you have posted are not at all what typical nitrogen deficiency looks like. Some of those guides are a terrible reference for any beginner grower. The upper left picture resembles a mag deficiency more than anything, while none of them, not a single one, show clearly what the first signs of nitrogen deficiency look like.

    When a plant becomes nitrogen deficient, the first signs are a gentle paling of the very lowest leafs. It's a mobile element and is easily stripped from the lowest leaves first. I've never seen a plant yellow and singe its middle leaves like that due to N def. Ever.

    Also, none of the pictures show clearly what nitrogen toxicity - or abundance as they call it, look like. Nitrogen toxicity shows as dark foliage and the classic sign - hooked tips, followed by burn. When the plants get to the stage where they burn, the first signs are the tips and margins yellowing, then burning brown and dying. There is a very slight excess in a couple of plants in the picture of your breeding room, in what otherwise looks like a nice healthy grow. Believe me, I know the signs of deficiency and toxicity very well.

    This is a chemical grow, there's no need for this fella to be using guano of any kind if he's using maxibloom. You use it because you're very much following organic/semi-organic principles. What point is there to complicate a simple procedure if organic isn't even your goal to begin with?

    Cannabis is an incredibly simple plant to grow, and almost every single problem of this kind is the result of interference. I respect your organic principles kitty, I do. You grow is very healthy and you've obviously found a nice plateau with your ingredients. I also agree that there are more things to check for before you can be 100% sure what the problem is. But I when any new grower is adding in so many different elements to a chemical grow, and having problems in the process, the best thing to do is scale everything right the way back and get a simple grow under your belt. Learn to read your plants and understand the basic signs of hunger and over feeding - the only two problems you should ever encounter when using any decent brand of hydro nutrients.
     
  15. I'd like to see what the OP does. After reading this thread, there are several things I am going to change and adjust on my grow.
     


  16. I've been using hydro/inorganic nutes for YEARS and years, on a much larger scale than I've ever used organics, and I am very familiar with how they function. :)


    I've grown in everything from bubble buckets and tubs, nft, to similar styles with aquaponics, as well as in coco and peat blends with both inorganic bottled and organic nutrients... over the years I've contributed everywhere from small personal closets, to huge warehouses.


    I've also been traveling the globe for over a decade and a half and have lived on multiple continents solely for the cannabis community, both learning from the masters, and volunteering and educating the local medical communities. ;)


    He has an abundance of PK, and a shortage of N, at the very least.... just like I suggested. He's also not using a complete nutrient system from what I can tell, which is why I said he's nitrogen deficient "among other things".


    How do we know this? Easy! Painfully, so! We have all the evidence needed right on the very first page! :hello:


    He's suffering a nitrogen deficiency -because he hasn't fed or supplied them the right ratio in weeks-... cannabis has a high nitrogen requirement until the first few weeks of bloom, we don't even know what kind of bat guano he used, for all we know it was a high phosphorous "Indonesian" style. Even if it was something more along the lines of a mexican guano, its nitrogen content would be depleted, or close to it by now.


    Between his photos, and everything we know about the nutrients/feed he's supplied, it's fairly obvious. :eek:




    The correct solution is also NOT just dumping nitrogen into the mix, unless you're trying to encourage a failure... someone with any amount of experience would never suggest this. :p

    And no one told him to use guano now, to correct the problem. Although he could, but blood meal or fish emulsion would be better options.


    Now that they've been heavily exposed to rapid inorganic nutrients, he needs to provide a very low solution of properly balanced nutrients, that have been balanced to be just a bit high on the nitrogen side, to simulate a flush, while correcting the problem.



    And as much as you seem to talk, you still haven't exactly provided a solution or identified the problem yourself, by the way... I'm sure someone with your vast knowledge must have some actual input to add here. :D
     
  17. #17 TheWatcher, Jul 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2012
    Kitty, I like your stories. You've lived on many continents... done commercial grows, tried every system known to man, traveled the globe, worked with witch doctors..... All in the name of the sacred herb...

    But... when you've got over your trumpet blowing, we're still talking about a simple weed.

    The pictures he showed us on page 1 are pictures of a plant which is suffering a toxicity. It is burned. How do we know? because it's bleedin obvious to anyone with a pair of peepers.

    When I go into a thread and talk about nitrogen deficiency, I'm talking about a deficiency of nitrogen. Not an excess of phosphorus, potassium, kryptonite.... Not lunar cycles, healing, or witchcraft. I'm talking about a plant which has nothing more wrong with it than that it just needs feeding a bit more N. I'll say bump up the grow feed, or use some fish mix etc, and that's your problem sorted.

    But when I see a thread like this, I say to the grower: change your approach to feeding your plants. Drop the non essential shit, learn the basics of plant feeding, buy yourself a basic well balanced nutrient and some good quality coco and go from there.

    Which part do you disagree with? I really want to know.

    The plant, the common weed - the same weed you've been studying over two centuries and about which you have consulted people over many continents in many distant villages - is suffering to fuckery because it's being hit with a load of maxibloom and silicon and cal mag and drip clean (whateverthefuck that is) and not a simple well balanced base feed... it's completely the wrong approach to feeding this simple plant.

    Is he feeding the right ratio of nutrients? No, of course he isn't. I said so in my first reply.

    But my advice is as it was on the first page. I don't know whether you're reading my posts, but likeI said in my very first reply - Get a bottle of basic, balanced feed and give it that.....

    Then you jumped in talking about your guanos and magic tea... :D
    That's all fine and dandy. I like your breeding room too. And your stories of many travels. They'd make a great thread of their own ;)

    In the meantime...

    KEEP IT SIMPLE.

    Stupid.
     
  18. my experience with N deficiency has been yellowing of the leaves from the bottom up. that bitch is burnt to a crisp imo. but I am no pro. just my 2 cents.
     
  19. ph lock and nutrient burn.flush your ladies,and go max 1200(better 900).and this max is for week 6-7
     

  20. Great shot. Love the hair too :ey:
     

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