very clean cannabinoid extract

Discussion in 'Other Smoking Accessories' started by asker, Mar 25, 2016.

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  1. #1 asker, Mar 25, 2016
    Hello together !
    i hope this is the right forum ?

    At first, sorry for my english, iam not perfect and its not my mother language (;

    I hope your can help me ?

    I want to make a very good cannabinoid extrakt / hashoil, out of leaves and (pollinated) cut rests.

    I have read and search much of information, but no realy answer.

    At the moment, i make an extract with iso and wash/reextract the blackwax mit naptha (becouse naptha its more expansive and to volatile, to use it directly)…

    I extract the material with the solvent often i can (still the solvent ist clear) and destill the solvent with a vacuum-destillery.

    But the result is an black wax, too.

    What is the best way, to clean it, with not to much lost ?

    Its activated carbon an good idea ? (after or bevor the naptha-axtraction ?)….its there a big lost ?

    I have read about to vape the oil/wax in vacuum an to re-condense it….

    Or to use an chromatography column…. But i thing a chromatography column is very smal and i have much of material….



    Here are some links (i hope thats ok?):

    Cant You Vacuum Distill SUPER PURE Hash Oil?!

    Get ALL your Cannabinoids: Vacuum Vaporization | Marijuana Forums

    "gold THC" 86%THC

    Will This Make The Best Hash Oil Available?

    Simple Method: Isolating & Extracting INDIVIDUAL Cannabinoids... from BadKittySmiles



    And there are some other questions:

    When is the best time to decarboxylate the material ?

    10-15min. and 105°C are ok ?

    But should i „decarboxylate“ the leaves, the iso-extract or the naptha-extract ? or better only bevor useage ? (I want to store it for a time, i the fridge)

    I have ethanol, aceton, naptha and isopropyl and a vacuum destillery with max. 120mbar (around 1000mbar (athmopheric pressure) – 880mbar underpressure) and an heating-mushroom up to 300°C.

    If it possible i like to make an liquit for e-zigarets, but primary i want to make an very clean cannabinoid extract, i fit possible.

    Thank you very much and best regards !
     
  2. #2 Tiny Mids Blunt, Mar 25, 2016
    There's a lot going on here. I sent you a PM to try and clear up some of your confusion.

    In general though, there's absolutely no need to run your extract through naphtha, and it may only serve to contaminate your product for the end consumer.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. #3 Jimmy Carter, Mar 25, 2016
    No need to decarboxylate either unless its going to be eaten.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. #4 Tiny Mids Blunt, Mar 25, 2016
    True, though it's not uncommon for product being used in an e-cigarette to be decarboxylated before reaching the consumer.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. #5 Jimmy Carter, Mar 25, 2016
    thats right, I forgot he was making carts. I'll be making some distillate or "clear" in the near future and hopefully make some carts with that
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. #6 IRON-EYES, Mar 25, 2016



     
  7. #7 asker, Mar 25, 2016
    At first, thank you for your answers !

    sorry, i dont have say, that the extract its not only for e-zigaretts, its for oral-consum, too !

    the last time, i have make an extract, i have mix the ready extract with alcohol, sesamoil, lecitin and polysorbate 80...
    i think the best time to decarboxylate its direct before further process (to oral-drops) ?
    what is the best time and temperature to decorboxylate ?

    i have read, that the oil for e-zigarettes must be very clean, becouse of the coil.

    and whats wrong with naphta ? i have read that its carcinogenic, but i dry the oil complete and naphta(hexane, pentane) are use in labs, too ?
    the extract with ethanol ore iso contains much of wax and so on ?
    and i think only short soaking dont work, becouse the leaves are already pollinated, but potent ! and i want a maximume yield (;

    whats about active carbon ? will it clean the wax and so on out ?

    whats your ideas and experience ?

    thank you !
     
  8. #8 Tiny Mids Blunt, Mar 25, 2016
    The problem with naphtha is that it's unnecessary. Realistically, you don't need to add lecithin or polysorbate 80 either.... If you're trying to make an edible, you just need your cooking oil/fat substrate (sesame oil in your case), and in the case of e-cigarettes, just use alcohol to extract and then mix it into a suspension with glycerol (or propylene glycol). There's really no need to be putting these extra chemicals into your concentrate, or you then need to worry about how to get them out. It's extra work for you, and it's possibly dangerous to the consumer if they're ingesting minute amounts of these compounds.
     
  9. #9 asker, Mar 25, 2016
    ok, but i have try it only with iso or alc and the result wasnt so good, like the result with naptha......

    for example, when i try to make an liquid for e-zigarettes, and i only use ethanol, the result dont vape without residue...
    and i have read, that a liquit must complete vape, otherwise the heating-coil in the e-zigarette can break down....

    another example, i have try to make oral-drops only with iso or ethanol-extrakt, after a time the result forming phases (i hope thats the right formulation?).....
    with the naptha-clean-extract and lecitine, sesame oil, ethanol and polysorbate 80 its more stable/homogeneously and i think the effect its stronger....

    a friend have made an only ethanol-extract and i think the result isnt satisfactory......

    maybe its the wrong extracting technology ???

    how do you make an ethanol extrakt ? (another point is, thats ethanol its very expansive !)

    i want to have an clean extract, without wax, suggar and other plant materials......
     
  10. #10 Tiny Mids Blunt, Mar 25, 2016
    For an e-cigarette, you could make the extract from alcohol. Then, once the concentrate is dry and free of alcohol, suspend it in either glyercol or propylene glycol.

    For oral drops using an alcohol based extract, you absolutely need to perform the decarboxylation step before ingesting your finished product (you very well may have). In either case, you feel that the extracts that came from naphtha/lecithin/polysorbate 80 are more stable. That may be true, but stability might not mean what you think it means.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. #11 asker, Mar 26, 2016
    ok ! thank you very much !

    i have search a bit more and found that:
    Guide To Making The Ultimate Cannabis E-Liquid – VaporBlog
    Advanced Cannabis E-Liquid Guide – VaporBlog

    but every answer will bring new questions (;

    i dont have enough alcohol, for all the material and alcohol is to expensive here, becouse of taxes....
    but i have much iso and iso is very cheap......
    is iso for real, so bad or unhealthy ? i will dry it very good, maybe in an desiccator.....

    ok..... (some theorethical questions, before i start)
    when i make an alcohol or iso extract, i get an blackwax.....
    and then i solvent the "blackwax" in propylene glycol ?
    is there an residue ? (i mean is there something, that is solvable in alc/iso, but no in propylene glycol ?)
    i dont need to decarboxylate the leafes or blackwax (like the guy in the link above), right ? or do i need to decarboxylate, too (becouse the solubility of the cannabinoids(THCA -> THC) in alcohol/iso or/and propylene glycol)
    should i mix the propylene glycol with some peg400 ? (i dont can/want buy ej mix).
    can i use the liquid for every e-zigarette and any vaporizer, that supports the usage of (hash)oil, right ?


    ok and now the oral-use.....
    sorry i dont understand what you mean......
    whats wrong with lecitine/polysorbat80 ?
    i think it makes the cannabinoids solutable in water and polysorbat should open the blood-brain-barrier for it ?
    and here i have the same problem, like above, i want to extract with iso in the first step, becouse of the price for alcohol and the amount of the material (some of the solvent is waste, becouse it will stay in the material after extracting)....

    i only use very clean solvents ! i think labs use the solvents(pentane + hexane(naptha), iso, aceton and so on) , too - for example for the prodution of medicine and so on....
    whats wrong with this solvents ?
    if you only usw alcohol, you dont can make something wrong, but when you work clean and dry, the solvents should vape completly !?

    i have an vacuum-filter-bottle and an suction filter (P16 / G4 / 10-16µm)........
    maybe i can buy an better filter (P1,6 / G5 / 1-1,6µm) to clean up the extract ?

    thank you very much !
     
  12. #12 Tiny Mids Blunt, Mar 27, 2016
    It's not "so bad or unhealthy." Any solvent you use with cannabinoids will leave some ppm or ppb of the solvent as a residue in the crystalline matrix of the concentrate. So, I try to elect for ethanol to be that solvent over isopropanol, if I have to ingest any alcoholic solvent at all. If isopropanol is what you have available, then there's not much you can do other than use it.

    No, there shouldn't be a real residue. Some of the larger, more particulate plant matter that exists in the extract may precipitate out in propylene glycol, but all the cannabinoids will be soluble. And no, for an e-cigarette, you do not need to decarboxylate. You may want to consider it, in order to maximize cannabinoids that make it into your e-cigarette solution. PEG-400 is optional. And yes, as long as the vaporizer can utilize liquids (rather than requiring dry concentrate), you're set.

    Again, nothing "wrong" with those chemicals. If you're trying to make cannabinoids soluble in water, then yes it'll behoove you to use an emulsifying agent like polysorbate 80 or lecithin. But no, polysorbate 80 is not going to increase permeability through the blood-brain-barrier. That's the work of decarboxylation, which is a crucial step for edible cannabinoids. I don't go the route of adding PS80/lecithin when making edibles, because I'll instead use a solvent that cannabinoids are readily soluble in (ethanol or fat/oils). Again, I generally work from a standpoint of "the less agents I have to use to get from start to finish, the better." And when you're already starting from an isopropanol extract, and you could potentially just put that extract (after decarboxylation) into a gelatin capsule and get an effect, I don't see the need to add extra steps and ingredients.

    You would know better than I how clean your solvents are. And nothing is technically wrong with your solvents. But do note, hexane is not naphtha. A simple wikipedia search would show how different those two chemicals are. I worry if you're in a lab where you're getting the idea that naphtha and hexane are the same, or even that naphtha is a mix of pentane and hexane.

    I don't understand your second to last question. "if you only usw alcohol, you dont can make something wrong, but when you work clean and dry, the solvents should vape completly !?"

    You'll notice that if you use a filter with smaller pores, you'll get a much more pure product.
     
  13. #13 asker, Mar 27, 2016
    Thank you very much ! that was an great answer ! and you helped me very much ! (;

    Ok, at first, i see, there is an translation mistake !
    i dont mean „naptha“, i mean „surgical spirit“/medical petrol (here it is Pentane and hexane) and ist pharmaceutical clean….

    what you write its very interesting/alarming:
    „Any solvent you use with cannabinoids will leave some ppm or ppb of the solvent as a residue in the crystalline matrix of the concentrate.“

    Is there something, what you can do against this ?
    maybe an filtration by activated carbon or cleaning with (hot) water or drying in an vacuum-chamber or drying while „heating“ ?
    the last time i have make the extract only with Pentane/Hexane and after destillation and air-drying, i have decarboxylate it in my oven (120°C / 20min.).



    That is what i mean:
    „Some of the larger, more particulate plant matter that exists in the extract may precipitate out in propylene glycol, but all the cannabinoids will be soluble.“



    „I don't understand your second to last question. "if you only usw alcohol, you dont can make something wrong, but when you work clean and dry, the solvents should vape completly !?"“
    - that means, the same, that you have write……if you only use alcohol, you dont have to think about the things, that i ask (;


    I have found another very interesting tut:
    The clean cannabis extract aka Pegasus Drops | THCFarmer Community


    and i think, now i have found „my way“ (; -> polylenglykol !
    when i have understand everything right, than PG is not dangerous in any way ?!
    it solves the cannabinoids very good ?!
    and you can use it for any way of consum (oral(fat and water), vaping, sublingual, transdermal), excluding smoking !?

    how good is the solobility of cannabinoids in PG ? is it equal to alcohol/lecitine/sesame oil ?
    i ask that, becouse the dosage and calculation and so on… with my old method, i use 20g of leafes for 10ml of alcohol/lecitine/sesame oil….. 5-15drops are a good effect (;

    how long can i keep decorboxylated cannabinoids in PG, in the fridge, without big wastage oft he effect ?

    ok… what do you think about this ?:
    - decarboxylating the leaves (120°C / 20min)
    - extracting the leafes with iso.
    - filter the solution
    - vacuum destillate the solution and dry it
    - Add 10ml of PG for 20g of (pollinated) leafes
    - maybe add some fuller´s clay (and maybe activated carbon?)
    - softly boil/warm up (100°C ?) the solution
    - filter again (maybe thruth activated carbon ?)
    - ……….ready !

    For e-liquid you can mix it with an liquid or flavor, for oral use you can take the drops or cook with it….

    Any doubts or suggested improvements ? :)
     
  14. #14 Tiny Mids Blunt, Mar 27, 2016
    Yes, "medical petrol" consisting of pentane and hexanes sounds more consistent.

    You can do your utmost best to purge. But as you turn up the vacuum and heat to an absurd degree, you start evaporating terpenes, etc. Because of the crystalline matrix formed by purer concentrates (and a concentrate in an oven is generally increasing in purity over time), and due to the nature of the boiling points of these compounds, you'd lose an overwhelming amount of flavour in an attempt that small remainder of solvent, and yet it'd still be there. So at some point a cost-benefit analysis has to be taken about what ppm/ppb of solvent is acceptable in order to preserve terpenes/flavour/etc. And once that happens, and there's acceptance of the nature that, however small, pure concentrates still have tiny remainders of solvent in them, you begin to want to choose "less unhealthy" solvents. Remember, these comments of healthiness and dangers, at this microscopic scale, is entirely relative.

    I'm going to assume that both of these points were solved to your satisfaction.

    Both propylene glycol (PG) and polyethylene glycol are considered GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe). Understand that this rating is not a promise/guarantee, but rather a lack of observation of danger posed by the substance thus far.

    Yes, glycols are good solvents for cannabinoids for the same reasons that alcohols are (hint: the suffix of both words holds a clue). I don't have know exact solubility values though Google can be your friend, but for various reasons cannabinoids are likely soluble in glycols to roughly the same magnitude as alcohols. Correct, glycols can be used for vaping, as well as oral consumption (thought it's probably not the most pleasant).

    In a fridge, the solution should last months, easily.

    I wouldn't be confident that decarboxylation had completed at that duration of heat. Again, I'm not sure why there's such an obsession with adding clay, or even activated carbon, but it's really not necessary (though I can't stop you). The second filtration is also not necessary though you're certainly welcome to do so; coffee filters would suffice. And maybe stir a bit while you add the heat to the PG mixture ;)
     
  15. #15 asker, Mar 28, 2016
    Thank you very much, again !

    Ok……
    (only theoretical / for example)
    that means, that maybe some molecules of the solvent are in the whole „oil“ ?
    and this few molecules are less danger, than the fine dust or what ever, that are ever-present…. right ?

    Is it with pharmaceutical produkts (maybe aspirin or what ever) the same ?
    or do the pharmalabs have possibilities to make a 100% clean product ?

    i mix the destillated (iso)oil with hot destillated water and heat it a little bit, becouse the oil becomes a little bit softer and iso its very good mixable with water and the water should solve some of the plant materials (like chlorophyll) and than i pour of the water and dry the rest in vacuum....
    what do you think about the idea ?
    (i know you think thats all to much, but i want it cleaner :) ......a friend maybe can make an probe with an gas chromatograph (; )


    „In a fridge, the solution should last months, easily.“
    ok, and in a freezer ? i think maybe a few years ?

    „I wouldn't be confident that decarboxylation had completed at that duration of heat.
    what temperature and time do you advise ?

    „Again, I'm not sure why there's such an obsession with adding clay, or even activated carbon,“
    yes, you absolute right ! but with clay or/and activated carbon it is cleaner or is that wrong ?
    its not so expansive and ihope, that my result its a bit more yellow and not so black……
    maybe the clay/activated carbon can filter the rest of the solvent ? or wax or chlorophyll ?
    do you have experience or do you know something about it ?
    whats better carbon or clay or both ? how much for XXXml of solvent ? how long ? do the activated carbon filter cannabinoids, too ?


    „And maybe stir a bit while you add the heat to the PG mixture [​IMG]“
    yes of course ! (;

    Thank you very much !
     
  16. #16 asker, Apr 7, 2016
    there is a mistake !

    with pollinated, i dont mean male+female !!!!!
    i mean the filtering of the female plant to make kief !!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  17. #17 sgtchickens, Apr 15, 2016
    That's kief. Are you planning on selling your vape carts?
     
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