Veinal chlorosis?

Discussion in 'Sick Plants and Problems' started by Johnny_Cool, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. #1 Johnny_Cool, Oct 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2010
    Hello all. I have what seems to me (from reading online) to be a magnesium deficiency:

    IMG_1202 Resied.JPG

    There are 2 problems with this self diagnosis. 1. The bottled water I'm using contains added calcium and magnesium 2. The leaves are showing veinal chlorosis rather than the fabled interveinal chlorosis (mentioned on all online sources) which is supposed to be caused by Mg deficiency. As you can see from the pic, it is the veins themselves which are suffering the chlorosis and not the spaces between them.

    The plants are AK48 and there's 5 of them altogether. The one already pictured shows the chlorosis the best, but another one here is looking much worse for wear:

    IMG_1197 Resied.JPG

    As you can see the cotyledons have yellowed and the lowest 2 leaf sets have brown tips and look a little sad and droopy. Here it is a few days later:

    IMG_1201 Resied.JPG

    Now showing browning tips on the next leaf set up too. Also you will notice the leaf in front looks totally wilted and is collapsing under it's own weight :mad:

    They're in a mixture of compost, peat moss, perlite and vermiculite in little 1 pint pots (I know the pots are a little bit on the small side by conventional standards, but I've seen people have success with such small pots, so I know it can be done). No nutes at all yet.

    They're a little hungry for light as they're under only 3 23w CFLs for the time being, but that said, spawned just 1.5 weeks prior, a feminised autoflowering roadrunner was given the same conditions and is doing great;

    IMG_1199 Resied.JPG

    The leaves are a nice lush dark green, little buds are starting to form. Granted some of the lower leaf tips have turned brown, but nothing like to the extent seen in the AK48. The only difference is that this plant was fed with an extremely weak solution of nitrogen heavy plant food at about 2 weeks old and then repotted.

    I checked PH of all plants and it was alarmingly high @ 7.8! I have watered twice with PH 6 water now and it has come down to approximately 7.4. I will continue with this course of action until I reach a more desirable level.

    I have now repotted 2 of the AK48 (in larger pots) to see what difference it makes. The smaller plant pots are actually water bottles cut in half. They are totally transparent so the roots are exposed to light. I heard from a very experienced grower that light is only a problem in hydro because it encourages algae to grow in the solution, and presents no risk to a plant in soil. Though I wrapped one in foil yesterday to see if it improves the situation.

    One last little thing... the bottled water I'm using has a starting PPM of 300. I heard that's a little high, can anyone confirm? As I said, it has added Cal and Mag.

    Thanks so much for taking the time to read this. It'd be killer if someone could lend me some experience in this matter coz I have none. :cool:
  2. Hi.

    Ya know, its a real pleasure to answer a thread like this...

    Nice write-up man. Seriously. U make it easy for someone to help u.

    So, at first, before reading fully thru, I wuz gonna say that the veinal chlorosis could also be an iron (Fe) def, in conjunction with the other signs. But after reading thru its entirety, I honestly cant see anything majorly wrong with the plant - aside from the Ph issue, that u are tackling quite well.

    The repot wuz a good idea too. In about a week they are gonna be just a screamin for nutes, and exploding with growth.

    Also, for only 3 CFLs, its bushy, and the internodal spacing is minimal. A beautiful plant.
    I trust its canoed leaves have already subsided ???

    Dont worry about the Ca/Mg. It will be utilized. The waters good.
    Lights on roots. IMO - no light.

    Youve got a good grip on things man. Keep up the good work.

    I am + reppin ya !!!

  3. Hey freak, thanks very much for the quick response and the rep :) I wrote this post 3 times yesterday and abandoned it each time thinking that no one would possibly understand, so your appreciation of my post brought a little smile to my face :D

    Well, I really hope you're right that the issue is caused by the high PH only. That's music to my ears man! I will go and have a look at the babies tonight and see if those leaves have curled up any further. I hate to be a pessamist, but I doubt things have improved. Let's just hope that you're right, and I'm wrong. Will post up some more pics later.

    + reppin' u back.

    Thanks again dude ;)
  4. If u stay on the path youre on right now,
    I cant see anything but good things in
    the plants future.

    After the flushings, they will be hungry, cuz
    new pots, more space, feelin less Ph'y lol.

    Start them back at 1/4 strength nutes
    and then feed them whenever they
    scream at u.

    Thats basically what they were doin - screamin at u !!!

    Good luck.

  5. #5 Johnny_Cool, Oct 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2010
    I started trying to correct the PH (with vinegar BTW) about a week ago when the only sign of a problem was a barely noticeable light green mottled pattern appearing on some of the leaves, and the leaves being rather light in colour.

    The plants (the one with the soggy leaf in particular) didn't start to look seriously fucked up until 2 days ago. I dunno. Aside from the PH issue I think another problem could be lack of nutrients. The little plants are 3 weeks old now, and have roots all over the sides of their pots. The slightly older plant (autoflower roadrunner) got a weak feeding at about 2 weeks old, and that is the only difference between the way they were treated.

    Here's the extremely sad looking plant today:


    The other one which was repotted, showing less brown tips, but the same pale mottled look:


    These three are still in the little pots. They have much less brown tips, but still have a pale sickly appearance:


    The first bud I ever grew right here on the roadrunner autoflower:


    The veins are starting to look a little pale on the lower leaves. I'm still tackling the PH problem of course but I think it might be due to malnutrition. I only fed her one time so far with an extremely weak solution of 8-4-4 @ 2 weeks old.


    I'm so glad I made the decision to only sprout 5 of my 10 seeds on the first round. Even though I was really counting on pulling a yield this time, I feel slightly better knowing that there's anoth 5 seeds on ice.

    Over and out for now.
  6. #6 Freakbro1, Oct 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2010


    Thats it right there, man.

    Its tricky work trying to give the plants what they need
    whilst fighting a Ph prob at the same time.

    Why dontcha keep feeding them that for the time being,
    but bring the frequency up. IMO that will work well, with
    what youre doin.

  7. Hey, thanks again freak. I'm glad the pictures don't alarm you as much as they do me. I guess I'm on the righteous path then.

    Take it easy man ;)
  8. Johnny, I have done a lot of research on the pH deal and what the best thing to use is. I have talked with some good resources and I feel the best info I have gotten was to not use the vinegar any more. Once or twice is OK, but long term, it was highly suggested to not use. Don't ask me right now, why, but I really believed the guy that told me. He is a PhD, which shouldn't really be the reason, but the guy has a hell of a lot of experience. Anyway, he recommended using the Technaflora pH Down. The acid in this solution is more beneficial and less likely to cause further problems with your plant. I had gotten GH pH Down, but he suggested using the Technaflora for my particularly Hard water. Actually, what he said to do was use the GH and the Techniflora 1:1 (one to one) in my water. Just a suggestion.

  9. Hey, thanks for the tip mate :)

    You wouldn't happen to know what kind of acid that is would you? It's not possible to get all these fancy potions and lotions where I live and I dare not order anything online which might draw attention. I heard battery acid is good. What do you reckon?
  10. Its Nitric acid.

    IMO - dont complicate things now with extra chems in the medium.

  11. So you're saying I ought to stick with the vinegar for now Freak?
  12. No !!!

    I guess y'all r missin my point here...

    Vinegar is good with oil on a salad. Thats it IMO.
    And u dont wanna be adding unnecessary chems to the soil to bring the Ph down.

    Im tryin to lead u thru this gently, without extra work and procedures.
    I feel if u start doin this, in the end, itll come back and bite u in the ass.

    The water is doing its job gradually.

    Its not wrong to use these things, they are good for "quick fixes" or "bandaids".

    How can u tell I love organics lol.

  13. Well, I would happily stop using the vinegar, but the problem is that the starting PH of the bottled water is around 8 and adding the fertiliser makes it even more alkaline. Not to mention that I think the soil itself is too alkaline. What other method can you suggest to bring down the soil's PH? Maybe I could soak some peat moss in the water for a while and then strain it out? I guess that would make it more acidic. What do you think?
  14. I guess theres no choice. Itll do the job (vinegar), and thats what matters right now - the well-being of the plants. Try not to make a habit of it. If u can tho, get some technaflora for the future.

    What is the Ph at now man ???

  15. #15 Johnny_Cool, Oct 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2010
    High again :smoke:

    I watered last night with half strength nutes (900ppm) at PH 5.8 and the runoff measured PH 7.4 with a PPM of 1380.

    Yeah, I will have to stick with the vinegar for now I think. When the plants are big enough to clone I will test the runoff of a batch of soil to make sure eveything is right BEFORE I plant the bloody things!

    On another note, a few days ago I built some nifty little reflectors for my 3 bulb CLF arrays. Little did I realise that the new reflectors were trapping heat in them and exposing the plants to 90 degrees fahrenheit plus temperatures!

    That has now been taken care of, that sickly plant is looking rather burnt now, but still has new green growth at the top, so I'm hopeful for her (?? I hope she's a she!)

    All the plants are looking a little crispy. I guess this is why the problem came on so fast. I had malnourished plants in alkaline soil suffering from heat stress. I'm lucky they didn't keel over and die.

    I'm feeling like I've got a handle on it now, but I'll certainly come back to this thread if I have another problem. You've been a great help Freak, thanks a lot :)
  16. With your caring attitude bro - its a win win situation.

    Please keep in touch.

  17. A little update 20 days later:

    All the plants perked up considerably. The ones in tiny pots looking as good as the repotted ones.


    Here you can see the roots completely exposed to full light. It has caused no problems this far in. Though one thing I've noticed is that one of the roots is growing a bright green colour. It appears to be recieving chlorophyl and trying to photosynthesise? I dunno.

    Still been using vinegar every watering. Not really on a strict feeding regime, they've been on half nutes and I gave them straight (vinegar PHed) water for the last 2 waterings.

    The small pots require watering often as they become bone dry in just 2 days. I've been completely submerging the pots in the solution Dr. Greengenes style.

    Peace out.
  18. Hey Johnny,
    Just want to give you my two cents here. First of all, the plant(s) are looking much better, I'm glad to see that the discoloration is gone and the majority of the plant looks healthy and green. Second, I would recommend covering the roots to avoid light exposure. Roots are damaged by light, especially intense light, and form that green layer on the outside to protect themselves, but this also stop the roots from being able to uptake nutrients and water. We actually did some experiments in my biology course last semester with light exposure to roots in different plants and it had an ill effect all around. Some duct tape or something around that container would do the job just fine.

    Just curious if you know what your run-off pH is atm?

    Looks good man, I'll be following this.



  19. Hey man. Thanks very much for stepping in and saying that.

    I was testing my own personal theory that the admonishment to not expose the roots to light had it's basis in the hydroponics world, and only applied to roots submerged in a hydro solution. Now you've put me on the straight and narrow I shall tape the buggers up!

    It makes perfect sense regarding the green root I observed.

    The runoff PH measured 6.8 at last check.

    Thanks again mate.
  20. OK, just a little update.

    All plants topped about 10 days ago. All are thriving. I believe that the yellow sun leaf was caused by malnutrition:


    The Dinafem Roadrunner autoflower is looking good. It started flowering 30 days ago. I would really like some opinions as to how far along she looks to you guys:


    I took clones about a week ago, so far all 11 of them are looking just fine and dandy. I even noticed a little bit of growth at the tips... I guess this means I have a 100% record so far. I'm pretty damn chuffed about that:


    The bottom of the clone box has about 100 small holes drilled in it, then a layer of fluffy polyester fabric, then about an inch of damp perlite. This keep humidity very high inside. The top has holes drilled to allow a little gas exchange too:


    I've been keeping the top partially covered to make sure they don't get too much light. I think I may remove it now:


    Well, that's it for now. Please don't forget to comment on how far along the roadrunner is looking. According to the breeder, it can take as little as 60 days from seed to harvest. As I said, it is in fact older than that, but only been flowering for 30 days.

    Thanks dudes :smoke:

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