umm, it does matter, that's why LD, and myself, don't see a need for it. You could amend your soil better and supply your tomato needs. Personally I find LD the most articulate and well spoken person on organics and what is going on there. Not to mention his insiders view to the horticulture market place. For those reasons alone, I trust his advice. Yes, he is human and makes mistakes, we all do, but until someone can give me a good reason to use DL, I will follow his advice. And yes Wet, we know you like your DL. Lots of people like to drink lots of alcohol as well and will give very good reasons why they should. Doesn't mean I'm going to.
It does matter in the overall scheme of things. If your soil ph is at 7 or above it could hurt your garden. If your wanting calcium or magnesium there are better ways to go. Because it is popular is not a reason to use it. Remember why we use lime. As far as I know there are only two reasons. One is ph buffering and two is calcium and magnesium. If your soil is 6-7 ph you don't need buffering, adding lime could bring the ph up way more than what is desirable. if you need calcium or magnesium, (and it's unlikely in a diverse soil mix) again there are better ways to get the same. I doubt LD hates lime, he just gets tired of explaining why peeps could do better. And hard to believe we did not even mention lockouts yet, lol......MIW
He doesn't, he hates dolomite lime. Actually, from what I can tell, LD has always tried to steer people away from what I call single shot amendments. This materials are designed to address one or two issues with a soil. LD seems to like inexpensive amendments that cover multiple needs of a soil and the soil ecology. I have to run, work beckons alluringly, but if anyone wants me to go into boring detail I can later. Or just read LDs posts. Especially this one. http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/650139-organic-higher-learning-lumperdawgz.html
Didn't hate it so much in 2009. LOL Read the very first post in "An organic mix of mine". Of course there may be better things, but not so much better to justify the cost to ship. I buy local. If I substituted that $4 bag of DL with say oyster shell flour, the cost would be close to 10x the amount. $40 vs $4 It might be better, but not 10x better. I'm not a wild eyed espouser of DL. It's just with years of use and experience I've had nothing but positive results with crushed limestone, not just dolomite. That is just what's available at the moment. The overall scheme of things comment was more or less, the sun will still rise no matter what you decide to do or don't do. YaknowhatImean? Wet
Around me gypsum is the same price as dolomite lime, chicken scratch or oyster shell is only slightly higher in the farm store, I don't remember exactly but a 100 lb bag was fairly cheap, but I also believe in a diverse soil mix, so I add crab meal and rock dusts. Then if you took a cursory look at my tea ingredients you would see I have both calcium and magnesium and secondary compounds and growth regulators covered every witch way......MIW
I'm not arguing with you, I agree. BTW, I snagged a 40lb bag of gypsum last year, ~$14/bag, but way cheaper than the Espoma. What I'm talking about is common sense. We also have the oyster 'chicken scratch', too big to be broken down in my lifetime, but I did add some. There is granite dust, but I still have to see about amounts less than 1CY. There is NO crab meal, fish meal, fish bone meal, shrimp meal, neem meal or even soy meal around here. The AN of organics. That's how it seems sometimes, like you can't do an organic grow using *old school* stuff like blood, bone, kelp and manures. It's gotta be the 'esoteric' meals and such, or it's just going to be a total flop, totally inedible, un smokeable or whatever. Sometimes it does sound like a AN vs Jack's Classic type of deal flame war, except with organic amendments. NOT FROM YOU!!!! LOL I'm venting, not going off on you, since we are probably 98% in agreement with slight differences in gardening styles, but no major difference in philosophy. I have no real difference with LD either, I've learned more from him than stuff I've read. "Teaming with microbes" is a good case in point. I've had the book for close to 3 years and read it more than once. It would make a good magazine article as simplistic as it is. LD and MM have delved much deeper and been more enlightening than that book. I really like that Budda quote from MM. Paraphrased,'no matter what you read, no matter who says it, use common sense to decide for yourself' Makes sense to me. Wet
LOL. no i have not considered it but if some indication is there please bring it to my attention. Well I' sorry I should have found a longitudinal study about liming in no till tomato beds for you. ANY way... if you can point out how this is not relevant to horticulture/soil biology I would be more than happy, please enlighten me. as far as i know "no effect" and the following are a world apart: "The effect of liming on litter decomposing organisms is demonstrated with microorganisms, collembolae and earthworms regarding the abundance and the structure of dominance. It was shown that liming may induce unusually large changes in biocenoses of forest soils." Biocenoses= micro herd, and macro herds in the soil. If you're sure Dolomite lime is the way to go for all purpose gardening, then sure amend it with 2 cups per plant every season. I still think you should consider the impact it may have on your soil in the long run, and take into account the possibility of soil decay, increased copper mobilization, leaching of nitrates, as well as possible root rot and boron deficiency. There are more impacts of course, but it would be difficult to test without the knowledge and tools.
Hmmmmmmmmm I'll consider all that while I'm eating my 'mater' sandwiches. I don't do 'no till' and my worms seem to like the lime in their bedding since it's filled with cocoons. Reading and cutting and pasting is all well and good if that's all you can do. Actual experience with what you are talking about goes a lot farther. IMHO But, like Dennis Miller, "I could be wrong". It's just my experience from actually 'doing'. Wet
I feel your pain bro. Some of the popular things around me are expensive or non existent. So i basically agree with you. But in the MJ paradyme unlike normal horticulture the difference from an OK plant and an exceptional plant can easily exceed $1000 in stricky monetary terms. So in that regard some of the normal rules are not in play, and even if your not commercial, money is money. I grow enough in 2 cycles (8 plants total) to last me a year. And I am one of the cheap guys out here. I mean dandelions? Leaf mold? Ewc? Almost free Money wise but top notch grow stuff. But there are things I am willing to spend to get, like kelp meal, azomite, crab meal, neem meal. And all that stuff is in my compost that goes on my tomatoes too. I had 7 ft tomato plants last year with softball size tomatoes, truly impressive. Hard to say if their worth it, but they do help make for better plants. And my soil mix from last spring should last me several more years, so it's not a every cycle expense. But again back to dolomite lime. I used it and grew nice plants, but you can simply do better. It's not that lime is bad, it's just that, a diverse mineral mix is better......MIW
...here's a good article: Dolomite Lime - How Liming Your Soil Is Likely Hurting Your Garden Dolomite lime is used everywhere. I have to give credit to the dolomite lime industry. They’ve done a tremendous marketing job convincing us that we need to put this stuff on our lawns and gardens every year. A search through both conventional and organic gardening websites reveals that most garden experts happily pass on this information. Occasionally, using dolomite lime is warranted, but the truth is, it often makes things worse, sometimes just a little, and sometimes a lot. Let’s look at why... What Is Dolomite Lime? Dolomitic lime is a rock. It can be quite attractive. It is calcium magnesium carbonate, CaMg(CO3)2. It has about 50% calcium carbonate and 40% magnesium carbonate, giving approximately 22% calcium and at least 11% magnesium. When you buy it for your garden, it has been ground into granules that can be course or very fine, or it could be turned into a prill. Now, dolomite lime fertilizer is certainly allowed in organic gardening. It is not inherently bad, but how it is used in the garden is usually mildly to severely detrimental. Broadcasting dolomite lime on the lawn Why Are We Told To Use Dolomite Lime? I have touched on this before when I talked about pH. The belief is that minerals in your soil are continuously being leached by rain and consequently your soil is always moving towards more acidic. Dolomite limestone is used to counteract this, to “sweeten” the soil. It can do that, but that doesn’t mean it’s good. Minerals may or may not be leaching from your soil. If they are, it could be partially because of rain, but there are other reasons, too. If your soil is low in organic matter, which is often the case, it probably can’t hold onto minerals very well, especially if it is low in clay and high in sand and silt. If you have lots of clay, you probably don’t have much to worry about. Chemical fertilizers cause acidity, so if you use them, that is part of the problem, too. Whatever the cause, dolomite lime fertilizer is not the answer. Let’s look at why dolomite is probably not what you want. Here’s The Important Part The main point I want to make is that even if minerals are leaching from your soil, it doesn’t make sense to blindly go back adding just two of them (the calcium and magnesium in dolomite lime) without knowing you need them. You might already have enough or too much of one or both of them. We need to think a little more than that when organic gardening. Your soil needs a calcium to magnesium ratio of somewhere between 7:1 (sandier soils) and 10:1 (clayier soils). Outside of this range, your soil will often have water problems, your plants will often have health problems and insect and disease problems, and you will have weed problems. One of your most important goals in the garden is to add specific mineral fertilizers to move the calcium to magnesium ratio towards this range. The problem with dolomite lime? It has a calcium to magnesium ratio of 2:1. That’s way too much magnesium for most soils. Magnesium is certainly an essential mineral. Too much of it, however, causes many problems, compaction being one of the most common, but also pest and weed problems. So if you add this to your lawn every year, chances are you’re just causing more compaction and weed problems. When Should You Use Dolomite Lime? You should only use dolomite lime when you have a soil test showing a huge deficiency of magnesium in your soil. Even then, calcitic lime (calcium carbonate) is generally the way to go because it has a small amount of magnesium and often a calcium to magnesium ratio of about 6:1, with a calcium content of 30% to 40% or more. I use calcitic lime regularly in my organic gardening, but even then, only when I need it. A soil test is the main way to find out if you need it and I’ll talk about soil testing often on my website.
actually, the article synapsis seems to suggest that dolomite lime increases soil decay rate, leading to various issues including possibly root rot and boron deficiency.
I have. Why do you assume I have not? At least LD was open minded enough to see a better path. Are you? So now we find the crux of your position. You use DL, not because it's so great, it isn't, but because it's convenient for you. The part that rankles, for me, is you telling everyone DL is good enough to use. Maybe good enough for you. Sorry dude, I misread your post. Subways and iphones don't mix so well.
Yes, good enough for me and good enough to use. Quit being such an elitist, not everyone can afford to order/ship the *better* alternatives. If that's all that's available, DL will 'get you through the night'. It's that simple. BTW, I snagged a bag of calcitic lime yesterday. This is the first time I've seen it since 2009. Simply hasn't been available and I've looked. It was $15 for a 40lb bag and dolo was right next to it for $4.50. Whatever. Pallets of the dolo and just a small box of the calcitic, so I grabbed it. I was surprised to see it and I'll bet when that bit is gone, it's gone. For this season anyway. I wish someone would screw up and order a pallet full of crab, fish bone, shrimp, or other esoteric meals that I can't afford to buy online. Rather afford the shipping. H2T Isn't soil decay what we're after? You know, the microbes, bacteria, rotting organic matter and stuff? TF yeah, the dolomite lime ad's come on the "Gardening with Goober" show right after the Farm Reports. The dancing girls and the "You know it's right with dolomite" phrase is catchy. LOL, just winding you up Bro. Good link you posted. Wet
I'm not an elitist. I have chemical sensitivities and HAVE to be careful. And I believe, in the long run, using alternatives to DL is cheaper. And I can bet my micro herds like it better.
Tomatoes like smashed up egg shells, crab and oyster shells, and sul-po-mag (aka Langbeinite)...for the sulfur content I'm supposing.