UFOs/Paranormal/Religion - Hoaxers and Liars

Discussion in 'Science and Nature' started by MelT, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. even if he's full of crap the U.S. government will go after him. All the other people that have hacked them end up in jail. It's part of their plan of making examples of people rather than checking their systems. There's plenty of examples of people breaking their systems because of their lax systems. I'm sure they don't care if he says he was looking for alien tech or not.

    I want to say there was some stuff saying he was making the alien stuff up but honestly it was ages ago that I was looking into it and have long since stopped watching. He's gonna end up in jail and the issue is going to go away, even if he's telling the truth or not. I will say he's not very smart if he went there looking for proof and didn't make copies of anything.
     
  2. GM is a sad case. He has Aspergers and is really just a child-like hacker with a love of UFO's. The UK was up in arms about extraditing him as he was so innocent, but the US had to make an example of him.

    MelT
     
  3. If you want objective UFO information about who is doing what, go here:
    Best UFO Info and Research Resources


    It hasn't been updated for a couple of years, but it's still a good way of checking out older cases and whether they've been debunked or not.



    ".....Only a tiny minority (<5% per the Colorado University 1969 study of the USAF Project Blue Book files a.k.a. "Condon Report") of UFO reports turn out to be deliberate hoaxes (a great deal more are honest misidentifications of mundane objects or phenomena). Yet widely publicized hoaxes challenge the credibility of all sightings. They can also call into question the diligence of UFO organizations. At the height of the "UFO fever" of the 1950s, hoaxes were perpetrated mostly by teenage boys with a camera and a good throwing arm. These might more properly be termed pranks. In 2006 and 2007, several computer-generated images and videos have surfaced; such UFO-art includes the "Australian UFO wave 2006" series of 31 videos by Chris Kenworthy funded by Australian Film Commission, the "Chad drones" a/k/a "California drones" and close-up videos of supposed UFOs over Haiti and Dominican Republic, featured on Youtube's front-page and attracting millions of viewers and raving reviews (4.5 of 5 stars).
    However, a more sinister kind of hoaxing has taken hold in America, which seems to involve the intelligence establishment of the United States (e.g. a serious semi-officially acknowledged elaborate hoax, on-going over years, was played on Dr.Paul Bennewitz, an engineer-businessman and UFO researcher in Albuquerque NM). The shameless disinformation fed to the general public via the mainstream media (even those popularly considered credible, e.g. the [ame="http://www.amazon.com/dp/6304468946?tag=besufores-20&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=6304468946&creative=374929&camp=211189"]PBS-TV NOVA "UFOs: Are we alone?" in 1982[​IMG][/ame], the [ame="http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series3/rendlesham_ufos.shtml"]"BBC Inside Out" promoting the Conde police car practical joke[​IMG][/ame], in an attempt to discredit the [ame="http://www.hyper.net/ufo/rendlesham.html"]Rendlesham forest UFO incident of 1980[/ame], or the recent National Geographic Channel "Is it real?" series of mockumentaries on UFOs/Aliens, crop-circles, Chupacabras etc, which quite frankly were the most egregious pieces of disinfo I've seen produced in this decade sofar and sent chills up my spine wondering how much BS we're being fed in subjects where one isn't knowledgeable and/or alert to catch it as such) also continues unabated.

    But even those who aren't gulllible enough to buy this anti-UFO propaganda, are swamped by tons of garbage, searching for a tiny speck of real info. Moore and Shandera chillingly describe the neutralizing effects of the anti-UFOlogy disinformation:
    ... "bury public interest in UFOs by confounding the curious with an array of increasingly outrageous and incredible tales which sap their strength, drain their resources and strain their reputations to the point where they will either stop digging or dig only in carefully fenced-off, perfectly harmless places." ​
    Some of the more popular (millions of views in Youtube etc) hoaxes are:

    • [​IMG] Ray Santilli fake "[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5830866813023883728"]Roswell Alien Autopsy film[​IMG][/ame]" and "Roswell crash wreckage" videos aired in 1995, are a confirmed hoax (see [ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7039109606537272722"]Eamonn investigates "Alien Autopsy"[​IMG][/ame] 2002 TV documentary or quick summary of Eamonn on Santilli hoax and comments by Philip Mantle) and Kiviat on AA film[​IMG]. Santilli changed his story in 2002 and admitted to have filmed a dummy alien, created by sculptor and special-effects designer John Humphreys. The organs were made from sheep and chicken offal, the leg injury made use of a sheep bone joint. The set was a terraced house in Camden Town, London. The actors included Santilli, Shoefield, Humphreys, and one of Shoefield's employees, Gareth Watson. Santilli claimed to have done a "restoration", as the supposedly original film footage was worn out and practically unusable, but it is practically certain that the entire affair was a hoax and Santilli doesn't admit it to avoid fraud charges.
      Note that the "Roswell UFO crash" incident in 1947 was almost certainly NOT a "Mogul baloon" as claimed by officialdom, but the Santilli autopsy film hoax was an attempt to "exploit", to capitalise (make $$$ money) on the public's interest in the UFO phenomenon. Only "consolation" would be, as Stanton Friedman -who correctly refused to accept it as authentic from the beginning- put it: "Because of that footage that has been shown in 32 countries there has been a great deal of public discussions about UFOs that would otherwise not have occurred."
    • [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKuBKIaVvs"]Video footage of UFO "buzzing" helicopter near WTC[​IMG][/ame] (*not* the case on 9/11), is simply an ADMITTED computer-graphics (CGI) promotional commercial clip for Sci-Fi channel! Other telltale signs would be that the "UFO" leaves a contrail. Read email by actress Barbara Sicuranza who played in it[​IMG].
      [​IMG]
    • Bob Lazar UFO physics (see discussions at Lazar corner[​IMG]) Ununpentium-115 superheavy element, gravity waves type A and type B. I could potentially believe (based on his name being listed in Los Alamos National Laboratory 1982 phone book and his tax return slip citing payment from Department of Naval Intelligence) that Lazar has worked at S4 / Area-51 and even has seen flying saucers as he claims, but his "flying saucer physics" with element Uup-115 creating a "gravity A wave" which extends outside the nucleus and then amplified and "out of phase gravitational waves" etc, I find impossible. Critiqued by David Morgan[​IMG] and Friedman[​IMG]. Bob Lazar tells his story (1980s):

      Ufologist Stanton Friedman's critique of Lazar:
    • Mexico's military airforce FLIR footage, caught on infrared. Rather convincingly explained to be oil-well fires across the horizon.
    • Some of LtCol. Philip J. Corso's claims in his book "The Day after Roswell". For those who don't know the background, it is claimed that he Corso, working in Pentagon's Foreign Technology Division in 1960s fed alien technology from the crashed Roswell UFO debris to US industries for back-engineering, thus developing technologies such as: the microchip, fiber optics, Kevlar, laser weapons, night-vision (image intensifiers) etc. Perhaps SOME of his story is true. I am inclined to think he overstated his role. Read opinions on Corso by Friedman[​IMG], Sparks[​IMG]. On the other hand, former Canadian Minister of Defense (1963-1967) Paul Hellyer endorses the validity of Corso's statements, having verified them with a US General who told him "everything (Corso said) is true and then some".
    • The supposed UFO crash in 1968 in Sverdlovsk (Berezovsky) Russia and subsequent alien autopsy in "The secret KGB UFO Files" TV documentary by TNT with Roger Moore (James Bond 007) hosting, is a confirmed hoax Shurinov critique[​IMG], Alex Hefman on TNT KGB UFO Files hoax[​IMG]
    • SERPO Project about a supposed top secret exchange program of twelve US military personnel to Serpo, a planet of Zeta Reticuli, between the years 1965-78.
    • NAZI flying saucers[​IMG] "Vril", "Haunebu", NAZI bases in Antarctica and on the Moon
    • Avrocar and its descendants "military flying saucers" or "real world flying saucers" being responsible for UFO sightings, see fake flying saucers[​IMG]
    • More fantasy at U.S. built flying wing disc aircraft? (1946 - 1967)[​IMG]
    • Australian UFO Wave 2006 Hoax, read interview of Chris Kenworthy at ufowatchdog.com[​IMG]
    • Billy Meier, Swiss "contactee" photos and stories
    • A more detailed List of discredited UFO sightings[​IMG] from *U* UFO Database by Larry Hatch. Note however that I disagree on some cases, e.g. the 1976 "UFO cross" by 2 British policemen and the T.Fogl 1957 photographic case (who recently retracted his hoax admission).
    UFO-art computerized images/videos (only those with millions of views):

    • "California drones, a/k/a "Chad drone" and "Raji drone" photos. These surfaced via C2C by Mrs Linda Moulton Howe (who has did good work on cattle mutilations in the 1970s, but seems to have lost critical faculties in recent years, falling for one hoax after another)
    • "UFOs" over Haiti and Dominican Republic, created by "Barzolff", a professional animator, using Vue6 software (various types, most imaginative is the "Flying Spaghetti Monster"-type UFO):
    Cases which are possibly authentic, but often mis-presented as hoaxes. Note that the anti-UFO crowd will invent wild "prosaic" (a/k/a Prozac-induced) "explanations" for virtually any sighting, but we'll only deal with cases where there is controversy among real researchers:

    • Ed Walters, Gulf Breeze Florida. I'll side with Dr.Bruce Maccabee, who studied the case closely (ref: MUFON Journal Apr-1989).
    • Aztec UFO crash. See work of Scott Ramsey and Paul Kimball documentary
    There are many more "stories"/hoaxes/etc by the fringe element in UFOlogy, which unfortunately serves to murky the waters and possibly discredit the entire subject in the mind of the general public who can't easily tell between fact and fiction. Websites such as www.ufowatchdog.com[​IMG] and www.ufoencounters.co.uk[​IMG] further explore the facts, myths and frauds about UFOs. You are welcome to subscribe (free) to the [​IMG] UFO Updates RSS feed. If you enjoyed this page, you are welcome to link to it from your Website or Blog, or add it to "social bookmarking" services so others can find it too.
     
  4. Failed Religious Prophecies: [​IMG] About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen. More details.
    [​IMG]About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century. More details.
    [​IMG]About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.
    [​IMG]2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.
    [​IMG]365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn't.
    [​IMG]375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.
    [​IMG]500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.
    [​IMG]968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.
    [​IMG]992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. \tThere does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable \tevent.
    [​IMG]1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly, as it later did in the year 2000.
    [​IMG]1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.
    [​IMG]1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.
    [​IMG]1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus' actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.
    [​IMG]1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine's reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.
    [​IMG]1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.
    [​IMG]1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.
    [​IMG]1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.
    [​IMG]1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.
    [​IMG]1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.
    [​IMG]1524: Manyastrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.
    [​IMG]1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus' return would happen \ta millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.
    [​IMG]1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 \tand 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.
    [​IMG]1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.
    [​IMG]1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year.
    [​IMG] 1783: On JUN-08, a volcanic eruption in southern Iceland started. It pumped massive amounts of toxic dust, sulphur dioxide and fluorine into the atmosphere. Cattle died, crops failed, and about one quarter of the island's population died of starvation. By the end of June, poisonous clouds had reached England and much of Europe. Boats had to stay in harbor because they could not navigate. There was massive loss of life in England, particularly among farm workers. Many predicted that the end of the world was imminent.
    [​IMG]1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.
    [​IMG] 1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought that Doomsday would occur in this year.
    [​IMG]1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.
    [​IMG]1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants \tsection 130:
    \t
    \t14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of \tthe Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:"

    15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, \tthou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and \ttrouble me no more on this matter."

    16: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming \treferred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, \tor whether I should die and thus see his face."

    17: "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that \ttime." 14
    The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. \t16 Smith is later recorded as having said: \t
    \t\t"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the \t\tSon of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five \t\tyears old." 17
    \t​
    \tSmith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. \t Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, \t having been assassinated by a mob.
    \t​
    [​IMG][

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians \taccepted his prophecy.
    [​IMG]1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called "The Great Disappointment," many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.
    [​IMG] 1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesied that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' ...now time is almost finished...and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." 10
    [​IMG]1856 or later: At Ellen White's last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. "By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure." 12
    [​IMG] 1881: Mother Shipton, (1488 - 1561), a 16th century mystic predicted the end of the world: "...The world to an end shall come; in eighteen hundred and \teighty-one."
    [​IMG]1891 or before: On 1835-FEB-14, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, attended a meeting of church leaders. He said that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it. He announced that Jesus would return within 56 years -- i.e. before 1891-FEB-15. (History of the Church 2:182)
    [​IMG]1914 was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). They based their prophecy of 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to "seven times". The WTS interpreted each "time" as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date. When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule.
    [​IMG]1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994, etc. were other dates that the Watchtower Society (WTS) or its members predicted. [​IMG]Since late in the 19th century, they had taught that the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would happen in 1914 CE. It didn't. [​IMG]The next major estimate was 1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year." 6 [​IMG]The Watchtower Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." 8 They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed. [​IMG]The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. 9 There is no way of knowing when this happened. [​IMG]More details on the WTS predictions.

    [​IMG]1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17.​
     
  5. how can it be said that someone had spirituality 'wrong'? i'd enjoy reading what someone who has it 'right' has to say.
     
  6. How could it be said that everyone who speaks about spirituality is right?

    It's obviously important that those who teach what they claim to be paths to insight are telling the truth about meditation, its aims and the true meanings of the terms they use. Readers are relying on them for a correct interpretation. If they get it wrong or lie, it blocks people from reaching realisation. Knowlege of ultimate nature is the main way to reach realisation, of that nature is purposely wrongly described then it makes sure that students remain students.

    As opposed to who?

    The only way to find the truth is to go direstly to the eastern traditions who have experienced it, described it, and shown working methods to reach it for 3,000 years. Hinduism, Sufism, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism - not via the self-styled philsophers and visionaries we have today.:)

    MelT
     



  7. well... i couldnt add rep at the moment
    but hallelujah :bongin:
     

  8. to be clear, i'd like to read the work of someone someone who has it right. someone you believe in.

    forgive my skepticism but i've also heard it said that the only way to heaven is to live in the heart of god and follow jesus christ.

    i'm not sure that is the truth. i don't see how these experiences are only accessible to those who adhere to any particular eastern tradition but i would be interested to find out why that would be the case.

    :smoke:
     



  9. Ah, I understand. You asked who to find the truth from, people who through their teachings would give clear insights into the ultimate nature of reality, and I answered that that was the eastern traditions. I didn't say that it was the only way, but that these methods were the most unadulterated and most efficient. I assumed we were not talking about the accuracy of anyone's truth about 'what is', but who is the best source of material to help you get there.

    If you used Buddhism to find your god, Buddhism would be pleased. If christianity contained any methods for reaching realisation it would use them. All Buddhism is interested in is helping point people in the right direction, not say 'do this, nothing else works.'

    The people I would recommend are teachers who all speak about the ultimate nature that they have each individually experienced. ALL describe the same nature. They're not philosophers, who muse about how and why, they just teach you how to experience 'it' and make up your own mind, so there's no narrative. I would begin with Asanga, Buddha, Nagarjuna as a start, then anything from Mahamudra and Dzogchen, starting with Garab Dorje. An introduction concerning ultimate nature is found in the Diamond Cutter Sutra (a sutra is somethig in the the Buddha's words), a text that has tripped a few into enlightenment.

    Just one point about what's taught. The higher teachngs (Dzogchen) are mostly not about meditation as you would know it, but about the nature of reality and using an understanding of it to reach particular states. But it has a built in mechanism that keeps everyone precisely on the right path of understanding. If you know reality properly you move forward. If you get something wrong you don't. Only one version of reality, only one 'truth' works in this way. The only people to teach this truth are again in the east. It's not a criticism of others, or said because I hate theists or christianity, just that I'm keen to use the methods that are most useful, and tell others about them.

    MelT
     
  10. Ok - I gotta say:

    How can people say without a doubt in their minds that the metaphysical is COMPLETELY bullshit?

    How do you know? We're not even 400 years into modern technology and people swear they know it all...

    :rolleyes:

    This. Planet. Is... BACKWARDS!!!!!
     
  11. Who has said it's completely bullshit? I'm sure a lot here would, I'm not one of them.

    You have to bear in mind though that a vast amount of what's said within metaphysical realms (ie, western occult, Blavatsky, McKenna, etc) is really awful nonsense. There's a funny kind of political corectness in the 'spritual' world where nobody says bad about anyone, it's all good, all love and light. Unfortunately the truth is that 99.9% of it is a useless waste of time and stops serious seekers in their tracks.

    MelT
     
  12. #52 weed:myantidrug, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
    MelT, I'm honestly interested and curious, not in any antagonistic type of way, of why you think all of Blavatsky's teachings are "awful nonsense". I understand how Theosophy was created in the late 1800's, and that Blavatsky herself was a mysterious character, claiming that she was receiving wisdom from ancient masters, and that there was a hidden occult science. Even if her motives for writing her magnum opus were questionable, and some of things she was stating had already been said in better ways by other traditions, does that discredit some of the truths? All of the erroneous teachings and controversy aside, why are you opposed to some of the most basic ideas of the society?

    I will say that I do not agree with her writings on root races, or the development of the universe, or a lot of the more occult ideas, however I am able to find concepts that seem like bedrock ones and that resonate with me. Some ideas are very similar to Mahayana Buddhism, not all though. Buddhisms' definition of Sunyata is seen as a major difference, as well as the idea that there is no eternal ego. Although the idea of emptiness does vary according to which school you are apart of, and I have heard some Theosophists say that they do not believe in an eternal Atman. I have read a few articles comparing some of the basic concepts between the two, and there is not as much contradiction as some would like to think. The below passages are just some generic online definitions of concepts in Theosophy.


    "The first Theosophical axiom is that there is one underlying, unconditioned, indivisible Truth, variously called "the Absolute", "the Unknown Root", "the One Reality", etc. It is causeless and timeless, and therefore unknowable and non-describable: "It is 'Be-ness' rather than Being".However, transient states of matter and consciousness are manifested in IT, in an unfolding gradation from the subtlest to the densest, the final of which is physical plane.According to this view, manifest existence is a "change of condition"and therefore neither the result of creation nor a random event. Everything in the universe is informed by the potentialities present in the "Unknown Root," and manifest with different degrees of Life (or energy), Consciousness, and Matter.


    The second Theosophical axiom is "the absolute universality of that law of periodicity, of flux and reflux, ebb and flow". Accordingly, manifest existence is an eternally re-occurring event on a "boundless plane": "'the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and disappearing,'"each one "standing in the relation of an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its successor", doing so over vast but finite periods of time.


    Related to the above is the third axiom of Theosophy: "The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal Over-Soul... and the obligatory pilgrimage for every Soul — a spark of the former — through the Cycle of Incarnation (or 'Necessity') in accordance with Cyclic and Karmic law, during the whole term." The individual souls are seen as units of consciousness (Monads) that are intrinsic parts of a universal oversoul, just as different sparks are parts of a fire.
    "

    Do you disagree with any of these? No single tradition contains the answer, or is without fault, but I feel that at least some concepts in Theosophy contain value. I do feel that Buddhism and other eastern traditions present similar ideas in a clearer and less convoluted way though. Again I am not trying to start an argument, I actually am genuinely curious, as I have been doing a lot of spiritual searching lately. Thanks man.
     
  13. #53 Stigma, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011


    I just looked up aspergers disease. I dont see any symptoms of aspergers int his interview. He seams to be able to communicate fine, and actually seams to be at least a little bit intelligent.

    Is there actual proof that this guy is a liar??

    Once again, I am just genuinely curious.



    EDIT: This is the video I was talkin about earlier.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtmpaM0PqyI[/ame]


    Are these people hoaxers?
     
  14. Actually, many people with Asperger's Syndrome...now referred to as an Autism Spectrum Disorder..are quite intelligent. Some of them have been my most favorite students. They have their own way of looking at the world and make no apologies for it. Unfortunately, they are often looked upon by their peers with disdain. They are very quirky, but the ones I have worked with have brains like sponges....they can remember anything they are interested in after seeing the info once.

    I am not saying they are all the same....there are huge differences...Many have problems with comprehension....because they often see situations in black and white. The mild autism aspect to their personality tends to predispose them to anxiety disorders....but at the same time some of them have an extremely good sense of humor.
     
  15. #55 MelT, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
    A liar that he broke into the computers he said he did? No. That's what he's being pilloried for, not because he stumbled on secrets. He is intelligent, aspergers doesn't exclude that, but he IS a fantasist who his family have freuquently said in interiews here that he lives in a world of his own. He's a fantasist more than a liar.

    The video, quick answer: Some of the people speaking are making it up, some not. It's just a conference. But as I said, much of the government doesn't know or care either way. What can anyone say? Politicians, police, people with impeccable credentials have seen UFO's. It doesn't point to a conspiracy that knowledge of them is being suppressed, just that we know no more about them now than we ever have. So lots of people beleive they're real and have seen them (me included) that's where it ends, because we have no more evidence than say, a radar hit or a visual sighting. No artifacts, nothing concrete. What can any government say? We'll look into it.

    MelT
     
  16. #56 MelT, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
    No problem, I realise this isn't an argument:) Where to start...telling you the full story of Blavatsky and her dealings would take forever. She was a known fraud before she began Theosphy with Olcott, and had set up other societies and scams, and been caught doing it (see her early years and the spirit pictures) She was also later caught writing the Mahatma Letters, from where she supposedly gained her esoteric knowledge. The rooms where she held the seances had trapdoors in them from where objects could 'materialise'. The only mystery about Blavatsky is the one she created around herself.

    Anyway, to what she wrote about. The source of the rest of her knowledge was meant to be Tibetan Buddhism, which she supposedly learned in Tibet. Pity that what she came back with bore no relationship to Buddhism except in a very superficial way. She is known to have plaigarised (though claimed as her own) various passages from known Hindu texts, but again got them so wrong that tehy become worthless.

    She invented a now provably wrong start to the Solar Sytem and earth; a provably wrong ascent of man (we've never been four-armed, or jelly-creatures as she claimed); a secret language in Tibet that has never existed; the Book of Dyzan, a Tibetan book that she said was in every home, but which does not exist.

    She also invented: the third eye, whcih doesn't exist anywhere in any eastern tradition and a whole list of other esoteric ideas that were purely her own imagination. She was criticised by a number of eastern masters at the time for misrepresenting eastern thought, the problems with Blavatsky are endless and I could bang on for pages about her. A complete and utter fraud who said people of non-white origin were unable to progress spiritually. An idea that eventually led to the Holocaust. Think of that. This silly woman caused deaths all over the world because she said it was okay not to think of other races as equal to whites.

    In reference to the quotes above,something to bear in mind. This is meant to be eastern knowledge of the highest calibre, it isn't. The highest eastern tradition of all, one that's regarded as the ultimate form by all meditators, is Dzogchen, a Tibetan tradition that was pretty much a secret up until about 70 years ago. I've studied and practised it for 15 years, and spent about 30 in total as a meditator who seriously studies all traditions. What she says has no relationship to it at all. She's read books on the east and simply regurgitated it, not caring what she gets wrong.

    Blavatsky's editors used to receive her texts and have to re-write much of it to make it intelligible, it's a mess of pseudo-religious waffle that to most people would sound valid, but really is just waffle. What's written above in italics is a bad mix of eastern thought and christianity that fails to accurately portray either. The only places she ever gets things right are where she's plaigarised passages from real texts, and even then she really hasn't a clue what she's talking about.

    Sorry, getting too long again. Her only truths are those she stole (and then misinterpreted). An understanding of Emptiness is crucial in gaining realisation, as she didn't understand it or explain it correctly, shehas blocked countless people from gaining realisation. How good a teacher can she be not to understand such a simple concept?

    The principle of Emptiness doesn't vary in the east as you say above. The only differences are that Hinduism places a slightly 'divine' meaning to it and Buddhism doesn't. There's also a slight difference between how it's explained in basic Mahayana and how it's explained in higher traditions, but it's a deepening of information, not a different emptiness.

    Yes, there are similarites between what she wrote and what the real traditions say, but there are also masses and masses of places where they do not agree. Try reading any of her works and strike out the word 'soul' and see how far you get, it doesn't exist in the east as she said.

    More?

    MelT

    Edit
    ""Mme. Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine, a multivolume work, is such a melee of horrendous hogwash and of fertile inventions of inane esoterica, that any Buddhist and Tibetan scholar is justified to avoid mentioning it in any context." --Agehananda Bharati (Leopold Fischer)"

    "...Blavatsky's deceptions

    Blavatsky seems clearly to have had an overpowering personality. She was knowledgeable of the tricks of spiritualists, having worked for one in Egypt, and in the early days of the Theosophical Society seems clearly to have used trickery to deceive others into thinking she had paranormal powers. She most certainly faked the materialization of a tea cup and saucer, as well as written messages from her Masters, presumably to enhance her credibility. She certainly claimed to have paranormal experiences, but whether she really believed she was clairvoyant or possessed psychic powers, I can't say..."

    I keep forgetting to say that she also thought that that hypnosis was connected with the paranormal:)
     
  17. Sorry, I get boring when I'm talking about Blavatsky, I'd just like to comment on the quotes you've used. They're very rerpresentative of Theosophical thought - based on real texts, but twisted by her adding in terms of her own.

    Bear in mind that these are just axioms of Theosphy, borrowed from the east, not what Blavatsky actually wrote about. I'll mark out what she took from the east in bold, the rest, in italics is all her own.

    "The first Theosophical axiom is that there is one underlying, unconditioned, indivisible Truth, variously called "the Absolute", "the Unknown Root", "the One Reality", etc. It is causeless and timeless, and therefore unknowable and non-describable: "It is 'Be-ness' rather than Being".However, transient states of matter and consciousness are manifested in IT, in an unfolding gradation from the subtlest to the densest, the final of which is physical plane. According to this view, manifest existence is a "change of condition"and therefore neither the result of creation nor a random event. Everything in the universe is informed by the potentialities present in the "Unknown Root," and manifest with different degrees of Life (or energy), Consciousness, and Matter.

    The second Theosophical axiom is "the absolute universality of that law of periodicity, of flux and reflux, ebb and flow". Accordingly, manifest existence is an eternally re-occurring event on a "boundless plane": "'the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and disappearing,'"each one "standing in the relation of an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its successor", doing so over vast but finite periods of time.

    The below could almost pass, but here she's taken the Hindu reasoning behind reincarnation and Karma, and introduced western the idea of a soul. But then what she says at the end is purely a relative view that is actually in opposition to eastern understanding in the ultimate sense. Thinking in the way she suggests is a block to realisation. No parts, no arising or passing away.

    Related to the above is the third axiom of Theosophy: "The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal Over-Soul... and the obligatory pilgrimage for every Soul — a spark of the former — through the Cycle of Incarnation (or 'Necessity') in accordance with Cyclic and Karmic law, during the whole term." The individual souls are seen as units of consciousness (Monads) that are intrinsic parts of a universal oversoul, just as different sparks are parts of a fire.
    "

    This is from a Theosophical site concerning Blavatsky's 'Monads', which were her own invention and which she said was the place that she and Buddhsim disagreed:

    "...Blavatsky taught the Doctrine of Monads, as opposed to the Buddhist doctrine of mind-streams or mental continuums..."

    Doesn't make sense, but...

    "...The Doctrine of Monads says that all things are essentially monadic, that aggregates themselves are simply compositions of countless monads...."

    That the aggregates of any object are made up of further aggregates is part of the Buddhist view of emptiness. No need to invent the term Monad or call it a doctrine.

    You said. "No single tradition contains the answer" But you also have to consider that not all traditions contain an answer. Buddhism and Hinduism, etc., do, Thesophy doesn't.


    MelT
     
  18. This list is missing one of the most famous promotors of paranormal beliefs, Dr. Oz.
     
  19. How could I forget??!! The horrors this man has perpetrated...:)

    MelT
     
  20. Thanks for the reply man. I had already dismissed all her bizarre occult claims of the origin of the universe and man, materialization of objects, and her shady history, I guess the truth I was finding in some of the work was actually just truths that have been presented in eastern traditions before.
     

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