The ultimate is the relative

Mind blown.

 

I can relate to what you are trying to get across between relative and ultimate truth through the example of Buddha. One can follow the teachings of the Buddha, and it is through this path in which they attain the knowledge from the very source. However, the state of the all-knowing Buddha trancends that which is true or in other words, pure. The follower of the Buddha is just that: one of the buddhahood, just like saying what is, simply is, not for what it presents itself to be, but for the relative connection between this object and all the ultimate truth behind it.

 

Yeah words are just words

we'd still know without them

 

When you conceptualize this truth, do you not put it into words at least in your mind? How do you reconcile the truth of what it is with your need to understand what and how it is without categorizing its aspects and describing its appearances?

 

this is why to me in the tao the things that stick out the most are

When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth.

&

I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

 

And yet, if any of that were true in practice, there would be no postings on the internet about this supposed ultimate truth. There would only be idiots, acting clever and professing to questionable knowledge with their allegedly empty minds.

I do not view an idiot as he with emptiness of mind, I view an idiot as he with prejudice who has never challenged it. In any case, I consider it more than a little perplexing the idea that in order to attain to some knowledge I conceived of with my mind, I should forget my conceptions and mental ability. This would be asking me to chase after a goal by forgetting what I was chasing.

Is that really an approach you can apply to your life? If you want another breath, is the better way to inhale or to forget that you can inhale?

 

I know you said you cannot separate the ultimate into words. But as an example, do you mean that the ultimate is everything joined and working together as if the earth and all that goes on in it are like a cell in a large body? I say "body" as an example but being we are all relative, we cannot truly know what the "body" is. Is this what you're getting at?

offsubject for a min, You know I think that scene in Men In Black, where the universe was just the insides of a childs marble, was genius..

 

Agreed.

 

well it seems as though we differ in understanding in some ways but see it to be the same in others

I dont agree nobody would be posting but nobody would be trying because I see that often times we're trying...

but to me what its understood as is a mind with no deliberation...there was never anything that was worried about or wasnt done...what i myself have realized is no matter thinking can always translate to worry or unnecessary questioning...completely meaningless it is to really think

but you'd have to go a long length of time without thinking to realize this because for us today its not an easy thing to do and certainly not an easy thing to understand

and thats the same thing that you are saying there...what is there to challenge it to? its already yours its already working for you...it wont not...and if it ever didnt things would only get easier for you .

You need not forget because there's nothing to remember...there will come a day where you wont remember any of this but you'll remember yourself...and your previous thoughts will no longer be important...and then there wouldnt be any goal to chase after

this isnt anything that needs to be done you know...not thinking...its just the truth which is when you think you know the world and when you dont you sense it...so we have our pick...but i enjoy both

hahaha and thats just a sad thing to hear because I've never had to contemplate my breathing its always something thats been done for me...If i wanted to stop breathing it would seem id have to mentally get myself up to it and put effort into doing it...harder not to breath than to breath is my point? yes

thats like saying if you were never taught what breathing is you would forget how to do it... i think not

but from me to you it seems you're just where you'd like to be or on your way at least and a very thoughtful person...which is great

 

Totally off subject but check this out,

My grandmother had COPD and before she died her lungs were down to 14% functionality. The only way she could breathe without thinking about it was when she was asleep. It was strange cuz she used to shrug her shoulders up and down to breath all day, everyday. I witness her many times getting too weak to shrug her shoulders and it was like she was drowning on air!! I interpreted how she explained breathing as she felt like she was curling a 15 pound dumbell every second of everyday she was awake those last couple months. it eventually wore her out literally..

 

So you're saying that someday I will remember who I am but I will know absolutely nothing specific about myself, which is to me just the same as saying right now that I remember having a conversation with my brother two weeks ago but can't remember what it was about. What use is knowing I had that conversation if I can't remember anything more about it?

More importantly, how do you speak to me as if you speak from the future?

Granted, off the cuff, it wasn't the best way to ask the question. Breathing is an involuntary impulse, but it's just the same as if you eat... if you'd like to be less hungry, eating something is better than forgetting that you can eat something. And look at that, I've come one step further within a framework of infinite steps. Anyway, I suspect I haven't quite locked on your method of thought.

Honestly, to that last part, I have to confess that I've been learning philosophy through the last school term and I doubt it took a very sophisticated intellect to pick up on that as I was doing it (I was posting the entire time). Now I have come through it and started tearing it all down far faster than it was built up, and naturally have fallen into literature that only encourages me to do it faster still.

Next on the agenda is Chinese philosophies, so I'm sure I will understand you much better in a few more months. Just the same, though, I'll probably be destroying it as quickly as I have been with western philosophy within my realm of thinking.

 

Noo I'm saying you already no who you are and you always will but you wont need the past to know because you already do.

and i dont know about the future lol

but thats cool man thats great because I believe if there's something fulfilling we could do its just that...learn all about everything that is and destroy it because it isnt us. this is what I used to go back and forth between

sticking to things like the tao or certain teachings or ideas but its important to me to not stick anywhere and know its within because I feel like we forget that the things happening right now are what history will be and is...so we shouldnt worry about the past and focus on the future at worse

but there's nothing to but understood there's simply things but if you understand this then you find freedom in your words and you're able to say anything

its not a debate...its just speech...like we here are not trying to outdue each other we're simply talking...because later today I can think back what were postal blowfish and I talking about earlier? and have no idea...and that will be fine

so its not all that important you know...but by understanding that instead of saying o well why do we even talk then if we truly believed this we'd just stop and we'd quit caring to learn and think...but no now you do the opposite

everything is seen as basically a bonus then...so I'll use my bonus as I'd like to

its nice that we can talk and argue and learn and make great points and this and that.

 

You're right, I do the opposite naturally. I think of confounding notions as coded messages that I should try to understand properly. There is knowledge there for everyone, but accessibly only to those who will learn it. Some people seem to react as if I am initiating a challenge when I try to understand them, I guess because it involves raising doubts. I get a sense from you that part of what you are expressing is that it is acceptable to step back from something and admit that you might never understand it, and if that's so then it's a notion I agree with. It's acceptable. But not satisfying, at least to my present state of mind.

I get the impression you take it further and begin to suspect that if we decide a question cannot be answered, we will stop asking it. It might not be helping to ask, but it is what my instincts instruct me to do: to understand, or at least to seek understanding. In both cases, accepting that my understanding will be completely intimate to my own mind.

There is no absolute value to any of this, and yet I am drawn to it anyway. Why might that be?

 

Yes basically more like its not necessary to be known...its like things can be taught and and things can be understood there's a difference there...so its a choice we have...and something we hit a wall where we ourselves cant understand something...so we wish for it to be taught to us...at this point I like to be taught but lately I've learned its just as nice to go on not knowing and there's nothing wrong with saying " i dont know"

and its the way you choose to understand which is why you've been success with understanding and why you enjoy it so much because like you said it instinctive...and even if for whatever reason you lost the desire to understand but continued to you're smart enough to realize you're doing it out of your free will

in school a student will not understand algebra whether its being taught or they try understanding on there own...but still they attempt to push and push at something they dont actually want to push at...because they feel as though they have to otherwise they will fail and come to this point again...so they feel trapped really...and its not their fault

its not the schools fault either though its all of ours because we like intelligence and its obviously been favored by the majority over stupidity...

but you get this and thats good...you see there's no value in it and thats exactly what draws you to it...because like I said earlier then we realize "well I can" so we decide to do

which is great...but see a lot of people see a lot of value in learning and they lose out...because I could ask all my friends why they are in college and 9/10 would be to make good money (ultimately) and so they aren't after the knowledge they are after the money

but when you value the knowledge over the money you'll find that money or whatever you desire will follow you...eventually

 

this is kind of a relief to hear someone say. it's true that the primary motive for education is to translate it into something that can further a person's future, and that's no less true for me than i imagine it is for anyone.

and yet i have learned in the process to appreciate the unexpected fact that the more i pursue it, the more i consistently hold worth in expanding my knowledge above that of my personal ambition. in a sense, i began a game of chess with the objective of winning and am now more focused on appreciating the art of the game itself outside of the pretense of winning or losing.

i fear that i am derailing a perfectly good thread now so i must say it's been nice having the exchange but i should probably excuse myself from the thread. however, let it never be said that your posts are without merit! far from it

 

Exactly and not everybody gets the opportunity to see things this way as you now see the chess game

I agree with your last statement and so it is. im sure we'll have more