The story of Genesis, where is the logic?

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by xsmallheartx, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. Hi,

    I have quite a few Christian influences around me and I have asked this question about Genesis in which I have yet to receive a good answer for.

    I think Genesis is very important considering it's the first book and explains the story of how our world, sin, and God have come about.

    My main question is, why did God make a faulty plan for the human race.

    I'll start at the chronological order of my assumptions:

    In heaven (before man was created) there were angels, Lucifer chose to reject God and got banished along with some other angels. This illustrates to me that angels must have had free will. If they didn't then they couldn't rebel against God.

    In the Garden of Eden God creates animals, man & women (assuming they have free will, just like the angels) and tells them they can have everything, except one tree. The serpent (devil) is also slithering around in this 'perfect garden'

    Why would God tell them they could have everything except one thing? This either seems like a punch in the face or a test. I assume the latter.

    Next why is the Devil allowed in the Garden? Surely you wouldn't let a fox into your sheep's enclosure. And especially if you know he will trick them into dooming the whole race which God loves so much.

    Knowing (God) that adam and eve aren't perfect and will fall for the crafty trick why make a test? If you know the laws of gravity you don't have to throw your computer out a window to test it.

    And especially why would you let the Devil into the Garden in the first place? And even if he inhabited it on his own free will, why let him?

    It seems to me like God put's a test in the Garden of Eden he knows they will fail and uses the help of 'Satan' to get them to fail. Then get's angry because the imperfect humans made the wrong decision and dooms the human race.

    On another note the bible seems to tell me (overall) that you are a worthless because you are a sinner and you have to accept the fact that God made you that way so you can be redeemed. Yet in the new testament is a love fest yet still remains the old message of the worthless sinner.

    This seems really illogical to me.

    I can understand that I can never have all the answers, but I would at least want a logical story in which the story relies on so I can believe it.

    PS. If you are going to post useless comments like 'Yeah I know it's bullshit' don't bother. This isn't a hate thread for Christianity. Thought invoking comments only please.
     
  2. the whole forbidden tree was never a test. that would imply we have free will which would be impossible when we consider the concept of an all knowing and all powerful god. it would be completely illogical for god to be able to create something which could refuse his will; everything must be subjugated to his divine plan. so there was never a test where humans failed god, we did exactly what he created us for.
     
  3. Perhaps the story was intended to be symbolic, not logical.
     

  4. First I will say that we do not know the nature of Angels. To know what it means to say that an Angel rebelled, we must first know what an Angel is exactly (which we do not).

    Second, GOD proclaims that Adam and Eve may eat "freely" of all the trees of the garden except for the Tree in the center of the garden "for in that day thou shall surely die" GOD was speaking of this day with certainty, it was never up for debate whether they would partake from the tree or not, it was all a matter of when.

    The serpent is not said to be the Devil (whoever the Devil may be), though it is commonly assumed that the serpent and the Devil must be one.

    I would say that the Garden of Eden was in no way a test, but simply part of the plan just like growing up. One way to look at this story is like this: When we are children we are completely provided for by our parents, as we get older we start to question our parents and rebel against them, once we become adults we leave the comfort of our parents provision and go out to provide for ourselves.

    After studying Genesis repeatedly (self-taught) I have found many different analagous situations between the way the story is told and the way our lives play out. If there were ever a metaphorical book of the bible I would definitely say Genesis is it.
     
  5. This is the story as I understand it.

    The story of the Garden of Eden is a description of the spiritual condition of the human race.

    God provided for Adam and Eve - and they walked in perfect harmony with God. They were unaware of their "nakedness" - meaning everything they did was in perfect harmony with God and with each other. God provided everything and Adam and Eve were fulfilled and entirely happy.

    However, there was one thing they were not to do - and that is to "eat of the fruit" of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Bible often describes "fruit" as teaching. Thus, God was saying, do not accept the teaching that YOU can know what is good and what is evil. The moment you begin to act on what YOU think is good for you (rather than what God knows is good for you), you will die. You see, this is not a punishment, but rather a warning that acting in your own self interest leads to ultimately to death.

    Satan's role is to tempt Eve (and Adam) that they should follow their own sense of right and wrong. He even goes so far as to flat out lie - "You will not surely die" he says. He was able to decieve Adam and Eve into thinking that if they obeyed God they would "miss out" and have a "lesser life". Satan uses this same lie today.

    Once they "ate" (fully accepted this lie), they saw that they were "naked" - this means they immediately began to see their world from their own perspective of "right and wrong".

    It is a lesson for us to understand that we (because we do not understand the consequences of our actions) can not know what is a good decision (helpful to ourselves and others), or what is a bad decision (actions that ultmiately hurt ourselves and others). Instead, we must trust in a righteous God (he always does what is right). When we follow his prompting, we ultimately do the best thing for ourselves and for others.
     
  6. I think a posibility is that its a metiphore , it could all be symbolism pointing out a truth as much of the bible is

    adam and eve represent innocent human nature [male and female]

    the tree of knowledge represents well.. knowledge

    satin represents pride , which could just natural human pride and not some evil lil scheming red dude with a tail and pitchfork ad turns into a snake

    the pride made eve and then adam eat the apple

    to have knowledge of good and evil

    and that makes us in the middle , because were not evil , but we are apart from good , so we are in the middle because we are striving for knowledge

    idk just my take , i think i read that from somewhere before thou



    or the christian belief we are worthless sinners is misinterprited , i mean he loves us right?

    i think that additude didnt come about intil later christianity , the accient Hebrews definatly didnt think that way and either did early christians , we confuse humility with self loathing
     
  7. TL;DR of Genesis: God makes shit, then decides to make man. He clones a woman from the man and tells them not to eat from the knowledge giving f(ungi)ruit. A challenger appears, and some think this is the devil, but that would be silly cause the devil is spiritual not physical. They eat the fruit, get kicked out of the garden, and mankind has to suffer because of the desire for knowledge. They have clone sex, and one son kills another. A wife appears for the son and the world gets populated. Man turned to shit, and god hit ctrl alt delete. He hired a senile drunkard to build a boat and repopulate the world.
     
  8. there is no logic anywhere in that book. i speak the truth accept it and adjust to it.
     
  9. Who looks in the Bible for Logic ????
     

  10. Why in the story do they need to be tempted though? God said don't partake of this certain tree that is all the requirements they need to make a decision. As you said Satan uses this same lie today but we live in a fallen world after adam and eve were kicked out of Eden. Therefore the devil is allowed to do a whole bunch of rat shit. It also states the Garden was perfect, I wouldn't call the devil in the garden a perfect place.

    My overall worry is the fact that all the bad in the world has originated from this 'lesson'. And if this is a metaphor for teaching and understanding then there is no form of understanding why God has made such a bastardly place. Billions of souls burning in hell for eternity, for no reason.


    Genesis is a story of how the world came to be. Creation if it is all a metaphor why make statements about the earths formation, God (the word), animal, man, sin. I would have to say Genesis could possibly be the least metaphorical, especially the first chapters.
     


  11. First, why do you think billions of souls are "burning in hell" for eternity? If you read the Bible you don't find anything about "hell" as you just described it. People take this (monsterous) concept at face value because "churches" teach it. You've read Genesis and seem to be seeking for answers - cool. Keep seeking and you'll find God is love and no mention of the "bastardly place" as you've described it.

    The tempation has to do with "self will". This is THE pivotal concept of the entire Bible. We must all come through the same "temptation" - will we trust God (creator of our true selves, giver of all good things, perfect in all actions, omnipotent and mighty), or will we trust ourselves? (God calls this walking in darkness). This is the ONLY sin God is concerned with.

    The only way to enter the Kingdom is to be faithful in this life by trusting God. The very good news is that A) God has made a way for you to get to know him (because of what Jesus did on the cross). B) He wants you to get to know him BEFORE you put your trust in him. That's why he says "Seek first the Kingdom of God and all (your needs, cares, desires) will be taken care of". We get to know him by "seeking" in the Bible one on one - no teacher except God himself. His spirit talks directly to your spirit - and it is an amazing journey.

    After a while, you will begin to see that God is good - and that he cares for people much more than we initially realize. You then discover when you let go of your self will - and begin to trust God more and more, your life begins to "work" and happiness and fulfillment flow in.

    Just one more thing...again, where churches get it wrong. The work of the cross has been finished - it is an amazing gift that God gave all men so that they could go about the work of "seeking him". He does not want you to try to change yourself before you start seeking. Come as you are...and trust in God for the rest.
     
  12. #12 xsmallheartx, Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2011
    I find it surprising you say monstrous concept. I think hell doesn't even have to be a fiery pit exactly but the whole point is. It is the worst place possible. Now that is a monstrous concept and that's what happens to people who don't accept Christ.

    Firstly here are a few for you:
    \t
    Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
    \t
    Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." This passage relates to Jesus' judgment of all the world. It describes precisely how Jesus will separate the "sheep" -- those who will spend eternity with God in Heaven -- and the "goats" -- those who will be tortured for all eternity in Hell. The criteria was based on the good works (or lack thereof) of people while they lived on earth. This conflicts with many references in the Christian Scriptures which specify that salvation depends upon one's beliefs, not good works.
    \t
    Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.
    \t
    Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell.

    Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Brimstone is sulphur. In order for sulphur to form a lake, it must be molten. Thus, its temperature must be at or above 444.6 C or 832 F. That is the boiling point of sulfur.

    Enough fire for you?

    I have been brought up in Christianity, I can't say exactly what I've read but I have been taught a lot about the bible.

    Why do you feel the need to cover up the facts said in the bible and say he is just about love. True there is a multitude of love throughout the bible, but there is also the opposite. God's wrath, smiting people down etc. That is the new school message I get from churches, whereas previously the elder preachers were quite condemning.

    You have to realise the bible has both. Even if the new testament is more relevant.

    "The tempation has to do with "self will". We must all come through the same temptation"

    I agree, but your missing all my questions. The temptation to eat the fruit is always there. The moment God says don't eat this fruit (Trust in God that we shouldn't eat it, or trust in ourselves and eat it). My other question is why is the serpent necessary. And even why do we need the fruit, we can follow and listen to God or like Lucifer follow ourselves and reject God.

    Now about the way to get into the kingdom.

    So God made a faulty plan and then made an escape plan after. To try to rectify the situation. My point is, why does the situation need to be rectified if an all knowing God created it. Why is there a fault in the first place?

    I know God is good and I know he is wrathful to. Therefore I question why create hell when it will be full of the people he loves, just because they didn't accept him as Christ.

    As for the bastardly place, I'm looking at it now. This world is full of evil. It also contains good. But overall it's quite a dark place. And this is all because of this temptation made that he knew we would fall into.

    It would help if you looked at my questions analytically instead of talking about all the nice things that God does. It is not a satisfying answer.
     


  13. Yes it is the story of creation, but the creation of what? Genesis opens with "In the beginning..." it didn't say "In the beginning of..." therefore you can not assume that this opening only pertains to the creation of our Universe/Earth.

    And for you to say Genesis is the least metaphorical book of the bible makes me personally question your understanding of the bible.
     
  14. Fair. God is love - so to talk about God is to talk about love. I'll try my best to be analytical - but spiritual truth can not come from any man. God teaches through his word by the Holy Spirit.

    Galations 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Jesus is the Word of God)

    1 Corinthians 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    Ok...let's talk about Hell. Hell is death. Real spiritual death - not death of the body. You quoted verses, so I'll be more diligent to do the same.

    A monsterous concept is the idea that God would torture people forever. The fact that so many people quickly ascribe that to God is appalling and shows how many do not spend time with him in his word though they profess to be godly. God himself tells us that he would never even consider such a thing:

    Jeremiah 19:5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind,

    God uses fire often because HE is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.) God is eternal - and to face the wrath of God is to be consumed by eternal fire. (Again, God is the eternal fire). Those people who continue to believe that their ways are better than God's way will die. God's fire will consume them because they clung to their own self-righteousness (that is to say belief that their self knows what is right). If you believe the soul will live forever, but be tortured forever, you are disregarding some very clear verses.


    Notice the contrast between death and eternal life.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    John 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

    John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    Romans 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    I most certainly did not say there is no hell, for the Bible clearly says there is. But the Bible defines hell as a place of ultimate spiritual death (eternal darkness). God does not want people to go to hell (to die spiritually) - which is why he gave his righteousness to us (through Jesus).

    Now about your statement that "the temptation is always there". Yes. You've made a very deep statement - and a realization you may have discovered if you are really trying to follow God. We all wrestle with the same issue.

    This is Paul talking:
    Romans 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

    Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

    So, this is exactly what you stated... the temptation to trust your self above God (the "evil" Paul talks about) is always there. And, as Paul says, he continually "eats" the fruit even though he doesn't want to.

    As to why this is necessary - I have no idea. Satan believed he was better than God. When we trust ourselves over God, we are saying we are god of our life. If I were to guess I would say that God in his mercy and love has given us a chance to be made whole by seeking to know him and then putting our trust (faith) in him as our God (not ourselves). In order for us to come to this decision we have to actually believe that God's ways are better than our ways - which is to say that we had to experience sin to know that our ways lead to the "death" of ourselves and others. Since God is Holy, our sin separates us from him. So in order for us to get to know God we had to be made clean from sin so that we could come before him and learn directly from him. Through Jesus Christ he gave us a way to wear HIS righteousness - and therefore chose life over death.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live

    And lastly, you comments about this world are a sad and true commentary. It is a dark place, and getting darker. It is the result of man believing he knows better than God. Hell is not a place that God throws people into - it is a place that people chose. Or rather, refuse to climb out of. Jesus Christ died for all men - it is a gift from God whether one accepts him or not.

    Because of Jesus, God has made a way for all men to come before him. Jesus is described as the Word of God in the flesh. To believe in Jesus is to believe in his Word (this is the narrow gate that leads to life described in Matthew 7:14). Read the Bible as if you want to get to know about God - and he will give you HIS faith.
     
  15. Anytime peer pressure comes into play this story comes into light. The devils entertaining to please their jest offering you an option to please them or not right or wrong and when you stray from God and those so called friends leave you, you truly realize how naked you were without God's help

    From the darkness, God said ,"Let there be light."

    Light is knowledge, darkness is ignorance

    On the second day he created two horizons reflective of each other, the sky and the ocean.

    These are ways to go, towards the heights or towards the depths

    On the third day he created land

    This is tangible thought. The foundation for all life. The Earth

    On the fourth day he created birds and fishes.

    Thoughts for the skies and thoughts for the waters

    On the fifth day he created animals for the land

    These are solid thoughts running around a foundation unlike the flight of birds or the swimming of fishes. The land provided a surfaces for the animals to traverse on

    The the sixth day God created Man, which we call our subconscious projections (Inception the movie. Forget all the hype around it if you get the concept of the movie, how an idea is originally generated you will get this thought) Pulled a rib from man and created woman. The woman loves the Earth, we are made of Earth therefore the woman loves man. The woman is the vision of God's gift to man, Eden, which is why man loves woman so. And hates her for making him lose favor with God. The woman also hates man for not keeping her in the light of God. An endless cycle you will see today still

    On the 7th day God rested, symbolizing the smile and relaxation we all share when we are done with a project. This subconscious projection we call man is also a projection of ourselves

    In our own image in His image


    The Bible and the Quran are the ultimate guidebooks to Life but you have to discern meaning for yourself, see it through your own eyes instead of the eyes of another. You think books like those would last over a millenia and their teachings practiced to the letter everyday to this day would contain nonsense. Oh, you're the smart one after all these years and everyone's dumb? Get a grip. The only nonsense and confusion you see in religion these days are of man. Tower of Babel. Everyone reaches God in their own way. Attempting to say there is only one way to reach is God is speaking way ahead and is basically trying to control how others worship, which usually leads to coin being ushered into the priests' hand in the name of God
     
  16. Appreciate Thoughtware.

    Sigh.

    What to believe and why.
     
  17. #17 Postal Blowfish, Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2011
    I'm sure that religious people have already told you that its not your place to call the plan faulty and noted that fallible people can't really make such a judgment. If not, well, I guess I just did.

    If religious people have pointed that out, I can only hope they have realized that their judgment is just as flawed.

    I'm agnostic with no good reason to believe, but if I entertain the notion of a creator long enough, the available evidence makes it far more likely that religion comes from some kind of alien intervention than from a god who gave us conscience and reasoning but didn't also trust these things to guide us.

    The logic in Genesis is ages old, and I'm sure it applied strongly to the world it was created for, but we've moved far beyond that world. I think those old books had a purpose and it was probably well-intentioned for the environment they were living in, but there is little sense in trying to apply that logic to modernity.

    We don't take flat earth logic and try to apply it, we don't take Earth-centric cosmology and try to apply it, so why would we take even older ideas than these and try to apply them? These ideas were logical with the available evidence in that context, but we have conflicting evidence now, so there is no application and no honest way to consider them logical anymore.
     
  18. A better question would be why did God create things in the order presented in gensis, then give astonishing amounts of evidence they happened in a different order, and absolutely no evidence they happened a la genesis?
     

  19. How could you pretend to know what is faulty in God's eyes. There are people that are happy and there are people who are sad, ALL at the beckoning of their choosing. Tell me how this is faulty again.....
     


  20. Ahh Blowfish...good to see your (non-postal) comments once again in a thread about God.

    Just wondering if you ever noticed that in one of the earliest books of the Bible it clearly states the world was round.

    (New King James)
    Job 26:10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness.

    Also, I am not talking about religion (which is man-made) - but rather about a relationship between the created and the creator.

    An interesting concept is that every "religion" is about man doing good works (which is to say "proper human behaviors") in order to earn a spot in "heaven".

    The Bible says something altogether different from human nature - God himself provides attonement for man's inherent sinfulness. Man need only accept this gift and move forward into a relationship with the creator. To me, this has always blown my mind.
     
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