The Politics of Climate Change...

It's the same idea as the anti capitalism groups.

They run around screaming fuck capitalism while wearing Levi jeans, Forever 21 shirt, Northface hoodie and tweeting their agenda from their Apple Iphones and tablets.

It's a cult. They have no idea about the topic they just want to be part of a group for the sake of acceptance and tribalism.

Vigilo Confido

 

I'm like most people on this discussion; not an expert. I'm unlike most people in this discussion in that I'll admit that first part.
I've done some surface examination of the literature and the discussion (surface-level examination of literature reviews, IPCC reports, and a few conference debate notes, as found on places like Google Scholar and Web of Science), and here are my main takeaways, as they relate to your post:

• The only thing that has been proven beyond reasonable doubt is that the climate is changing. This is nothing new in our planet's history.
• Humanity does contribute to the changing climate. There is no definite science on how much the current rate of change is caused by us despite the outraged rhetoric. The amount of factors that go into this calculation is too long to list here, but most of them are natural processes.
• Data does correlate the increase of the rate of change to industrialization. More data will be available in the next 15-50 years, when the emerging industrializing economies (mainly China, India, parts of Africa if trends continue) have been online long enough to analyze data. As you point out, this is a slow-moving phenomenon, and in recent years the rate of climate change has declined mildly.
• The West, and USA in particular, is no longer the main problem as regards to greenhouse gases. The main problem is the above-mentioned emerging economies. If we were to follow the leftist mindset on this, what we really should be doing is going to poor people in China, India and Africa and telling them not to buy cars, not to take flights, and not to consume products resulting from industrialized processes.
• The data is highly politicized. There's a gap between scientific understanding of the data and the popularization of that data. You see this with the... what could we call them, the Bill Nye the Science Guys. They don't know much about the science themselves, none of them have read a full article, but are parroting talking points which have gone through several stages of framing. This goes for both sides of the debate, though there is more scientific skepticism and less tribal moralizing on the side of the deniers.
• Scientists agree on the facts, which are universal, but disagree on the analysis of these facts. Just as a capitalist and a socialist will both recognize that people are poor, but debate endlessly on why they are poor.

TLDR; Earth getting warmer, scientific debate about why is ongoing, as there isn't enough data to either A) predict the future or B) determine how much the different parameters impact the data.

I stress again that I am a complete amateur in this field. So, take everything here with a grain of salt. I also stress that nearly everyone you'll hear from is also a complete amateur, and that the angrier or more sarcastic they are, the less likely it is that they know a damn thing.

Takes me back to a date I went on in my early twenties, where the young lady who was digging into the nachos I'd bought her was berating me for eating a burger, those poor animals, humanity should move forward. The young lady was wearing dead animals, and carrying around a bag made of dead animals.



hey fair point sweetie

 

The irony is we have the data but then you have these exploit groups that scream fire and destruction like Town Criers and then turn to the government and say "Give us money for our data and ideas" then when the earth doesn't explode when they say it will they move the goalposts and say "we need more money"

Vigilo Confido

 

And don't even get me started on the Polar Bear horse shit.

Coke making hand over fist when they stuck polar bears on their cans. Polar bear population was supposed to be GONE by now but not only did they not die out their population skyrocketed and became stable.

Vigilo Confido

 

I loved the polar bear picture LOL that’s the cool thing about being on the Internet… If you guys want to give me a few minutes I bet I can come up with a picture of a polar bear in a swimming pool Lol

So I’m taking a very quick break at lunchtime right now and I decided to type into Google “How much is man really contributing to global warming?” - and this was the very first link to pop up:

Climate Change, Fossil Fuels, and Human Well Being

I thought it was fantastic to tell you the truth; and if any of you could take a minute to at least breeze through it, it’s actually pretty enlightening!!

That includes you as well, @svedka - if you have the time, at least.

So many fantastic points made! We hear about all the doom and gloom but according to this website at least, things have gotten significantly better with the rise in temperature albeit a very very small rise in temperature…

And seriously - what really is the downfall of a slight rise in global temperatures? This website has shown that crops are growing much better which of course they would, with warmer temperatures and added carbon dioxide - but seriously if you can, take a couple minutes and take a look at the link above. I’d be happy to discuss more later but I got to get back to work.

Peas

J

 

I personally think that Donald Trump is a scumbag but seriously dude? This guys been in office for how long now…a couple years? Global warming is what… His fault? LOL

If a different person you liked was president would that mean - what?

I’m not sure what you mean by “time is running out”? Can you elaborate? What time is running out?

What is it exactly that we are wrong as hell about?

Where did this information come from? I’d really hate to think it was an anti-government or anti-military website… Because there is around 1.4 BILLION cars on the road right now… And that’s only cars… That’s not trucks or buses or smokestacks from manufacturing or planes LOL

Or feedlots! Lol

So you’re telling me that the military uses more then these items? Data?

you don’t know me… How do you know what I’ve bought into or what I haven’t?
With this said - I am guessing that you don’t use any oil products since you haven’t “bought into it”? No oil based heating, no fossil fuel electricity for you? And I have no idea what you’re referring to by “Farm Inc.” - But you must not use flour or eat mass produced or mass farmed supermarket items then? One really cool thing though is I just bet my buddy that you would bring the phrase “ military industrial complex” Into your response in a thread about climate change LOL! You just won me a coffee dude - and for that I thank you LOL

I do love how you brought “Politics” and “climate change” into the same thread - I do love The City lol

Peas

J

 

You ever notice that all this global warming shit is aimed by Svedka sock and the Lefties at the US?

Get fuckin real, China, India and the gaggle of major shit hole developing countries pump out so much toxic waste with nearly 0 oversight or responsibility and you're gonna sit here and give the country with one of the smallest carbon footprints and the most eco activism shit?

But that's the point. It has nothing to do with "global warming" it's just another angle to attack the US from to push the narrative.

Vigilo Confido

 

We’ll lose thousands of years of a habitable environment?

I normally don’t have the energy or time to
Stay on top of the latest and greatest evidence. Can you point me in the right direction from solid sources?

What are you doing to help fix things?

J

 

Very true.

From Forbes magazine - According to the 2017 BP Statistical Review of World Energy, since 2005 annual U.S. carbon dioxide emissions have declined by 758 million metric tons. That is by far the largest decline of any country in the world over that timespan and is nearly as large as the 770 million metric ton decline for the entire European Union.

@svedka - where are you from - roughly? Just curious.

It does seem that the US rose again in 2018, but is still only supplying 15% of the total world emissions. China is twice that.

J

 

This thread is a textbook example of people making up their minds and then going to look for data that supports their opinion. But all the data I've seen suggests our opinions don't mean squat.

The data I've seen suggests that things are much, much, much worse than anyone on the left or the right is willing to address... and there's really no way to address it anyway, because the crux of the problem isn't climate change, it's overpopulation -- and human beings are incapable of going against their instinct to make more human beings. And even if you could somehow convince the people in one area of the world, it wouldn't be enough. You'd need the whole world to willingly reduce their breeding numbers. Ha. You might as well ask gravity not to suck.

Every new study shows that the polar ice is melting faster, seas are warming faster, and the ocean is rising faster than the previous study predicted. This doesn't mean all the studies are wrong, it means the planet warming is happening at an accelerating rate.

No need to worry about that though. The latest ecological disaster looming is the extinction of insect life which is pretty much the end for all of us. Without insects, the whole biosphere will collapse. And to the biosphere it doesn't matter what you believe.

As things stand now, there is no future for us. We are in a mass extinction event, and it looks like it's going to happen from the ground up. First the insects, then the animals that feed on them and the plants that are fed by them. Next, the animals that fed on the plants that no longer exist, and the plants that used to feed on the animals that no longer exist. Then, like ripples in a pond, more and more species vanish. Ours may even be last, but I doubt that very much. Before that happens, one madman or another will engage in nuclear Armageddon or something similar, and that'll be the end of us.

But relax! Kick back and smoke your weed. We still have a good forty or fifty years before everyone is dead. Plenty of time to engage in politics and let people know you won't be gulled into believing whatever those dopes on the other side believe. Hell no! we'd rather die than admit they're right!

Right?

That'll show em.

 

Interesting. I posted this link yesterday that I stumbled across - and again I state I know didlysquat about the whole deal - but take a minute and take a look and I’d love to chat afterwards?

And 40 to 50 years huh? You’re getting this information where?

“Next, the animals that fed on the plants that no longer exist”

So - plants are dying? Cite, please - because my information is showing that plants are growing faster and stronger and with more mass then before? What do you think C02 & warmer temps do to plants?

I was just out in the woods in the fresh snow in backwoods Maine on my property and my world was beautiful.

J

 

So the average air temps have risen by somewhere around one degree in the last century and the oceans temps have risen by a little over 1°F in the last 135 years - according to documented data.

Edit: Cite:Oceans Started Warming 135 Years Ago, Study Suggests

According to the data, the oceans temperatures have been rising for this entire time of 135 years - so with this said, do you think that mankind was contributing to the ocean temperatures rising 135 years ago? - pretty much before cars and planes and massive industrialization?

I’m also curious - as I asked above - what you are doing to help?

Serious questions.

J

 

As I stated in my earlier post, "The crux of the problem isn't climate change, it's overpopulation -- and human beings are incapable of going against their instinct to make more human beings."

Until that issue is addressed, none of the ecological concerns that people deny or decry are addressable in any significant way.

I get my numbers from the United Nations studies on population growth. It is an issue that I have been concerned about since the early 1970's. If it wasn't for the development of cheap ammonia through the Haber-Bosch process (and from that, nitrogen fertilizer) in the early 20th century, world starvation would be much worse than it is now, and would have started much earlier.

Meanwhile the desertification of the planet continues apace. The amount of arable land per person worldwide is shrinking, not growing.

While the UN predicts a world population of 11 billion by 2100, the IIASA believes population will peak around 8.5 billion and then die back to about 8 billion people. (It's amusing to note that according to one opinion writer in Forbes magazine, we don't need to worry about overpopulation because only poor countries make populations grow, and by 2100 everyone will be rich so there will be no overpopulation. I suspect this fellow was the same guy who predicted we'd all be flying nuclear powered space cars by the year 2000.)

So what's the problem with 11 billion people on the planet? It's beyond design specs. Most scientists agree that the upper limit of world population is 9-10 billion people. Counting all of the arable land on the planet, we currently feed less than 4 billion people without the aid of nitrogen fertilizer. It's important to remember that the Haber-Bosch process utilizes natural gas as its source of hydrogen in the production of nitrogen fertilizer. So we rely on a natural resource that may run out, to feed the several billion surplus people who over populate the planet.

Meanwhile, natural disasters are magnified while weather patterns exacerbate conditions worldwide. Roughly a third of the world's insect population is gone. Glacial ice has mostly disappeared from the Sierra Nevada mountains. Kilimanjaro is no longer white crowned. It would take a fool to fail to realize that our environment has changed in the last 50 years. I've observed it with my own eyes. Owens lake is gone. It covered the floor of the Mojave when I was a kid. The glacial ice above Cottonwood pass is gone. I remember hiking to it when I was 8. Look at any satellite map of the area around Mount Whitney. Where's all the glacial ice? Nothing remains but glacial lakes.

I must admit my earlier post was written in one of my more cynical moods. The one thing that remains to be seen is that which has not yet been revealed. lol... that is to say, there will be inventions and contraventions natural and man made that we have yet to perceive... like the guys in Switzerland who just recently developed an effective air scrubber that removes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Their only problem is they haven't found a ready market for the C02 they recover so the process is currently a loss leader, but they hope to develop the market (and their technology) into something that may mitigate the affects of carbon saturation in the atmosphere.

So is the future hopeful or hopeless?

Yes!

 

Yes what? Lol Hopeful or hopeless?

Of course it’s hopeful - at least for the 2% that have any common sense.

YOU’LL NEVER, EVER BE ABLE TO TELL PEOPLE NOT TO FUCK.

One thing leads to another. I’m personally snipped lol - 3 daughters was plenty.
I did meet a fella the other day, though, whose wife recently became pregnant with their ninth child. He just turned 30.
30! With his ninth child on the way! He told us as if he was proud; but all the time I’m thinking “Dumbass”... lol

I don’t care where I lived on this planet - I wouldn’t allow my wife and daughters to go hungry. I would either make sure that I could - A. Grow my own (organic, nutritional) food and raise my own animals, or B. Make damn sure I had a job that would allow me to buy what I needed, or C. Under cover of night, start walking until I was elsewhere, in a position to do A or B.

People being crammed together in cities doesn’t help at all. Spread ‘em out and let them raise and grow their own food. We grow a tremendous amount of food here - not enough to cover us year round but for many months out of the year all I need is rice or noodles etc and we take care of everything else.

“Would take a fool to realize that our climate has (not) changed in the last 50 years”

Oh, it has - but I also believe that most is due to natural phenomena.

Edit: this is at least worth checking out. I’ve been doing a lot of reading about this lately and I’m still not convinced that man has made our climate shift as so many claim.


“CLIMATE change is a natural phenomenon, according to a shock new report which throws a spanner in the works of those who say global warming is a result of man-made activity. Well respected Australian scientist Jennifer Marohasy says global temperatures would have still risen without the industrial revolution – essentially dismissing the claim that man is responsible for climate change.“

Here: Climate Change - the REAL inconvenient truth: Scientist claims global warming is NATURAL



J

 

Research pair suggest global warming almost completely natural (Update)

A great blog here discussing various topics surrounding the cause of climate change: Research pair suggest global warming almost completely natural (Update)

File under: FWIW

J

 

"CLIMATE change is a natural phenomenon...."? well Duh. it's hard to believe people have been brain washed to believe anything different.

 

Thank goodness - and almost unbelievable - 2 common sense answers in a row?

I’m off to buy a lottery ticket LOL

I honestly think that these people are giving mankind much too much credit to think that we can change the weather like we are being told. There is no doubt and it is documented that temperatures have risen around 1° or 1 1/2° depending on who you talk to over the last 135 years I have a hard time believing the “accelerated rate“ that we are being told that the earth is warming. It does seem to be enough to melt some of the big ice at the polar regions and as temperature controls the expansion of water the ocean level has risen.

But is man doing this or is this a natural phenomenon? Obviously the earth has been going through cycles since day one.

I linked a great website that was pretty enlightening and I am going to link it again. These folks make some fantastic points that this is not the doomsday that everybody is saying it is. Where is all the negativity coming from?
It’s been proven that plants are growing bigger and fatter. Do you want bigger plants? Raise temperatures and add CO2! Mankind has added CO2 into the atmosphere. I am sure of that also because of the polar ice melting it’s been shown that a lot of carbon dioxide has been trapped in the ice and is being released as the ice melts.

Again, where is all of the negativity bigger plants and plant mass on the planet is only good in my opinion.

This is the site I linked above: Climate Change, Fossil Fuels, and Human Well Being

They made some great points all briefly touch on but seriously if you’ve got just a couple of minutes check it out…

Some copied and pasted highlights -

How has mankind fared since 1950?

“Globally, life expectancy increased by 48 percent, from 48 years in 1950 to 71.4 years in 2015. All regions made substantial gains, including Africa, the poorest continent, where life expectancy increased by 68 percent.“

“Some scientists claim warming will depress crop yields. Yet global yields for wheat, corn, and soy have been increasing since 1960. U.S. corn yields increased by 25 percent since 2000, 44 percent since 1990, and 88 percent since 1980. A recent Michigan State University study reports U.S. corn production “has steadily increased by an average of two bushels per acre every year for the past 40 years.”
Thanks partly to higher yields, global per capita food supply increased by 6 percent since 2000 even though global population increased by 17 percent. Similarly, the global percentage of undernourished people declined from 15 percent to just under 11 percent.”
“world population living in extreme povertydeclined by 55 percent despite an increase in global population of 1.3 billion. Life years lost due to disability and disease also declined for all age categories, especially children.”
“so-called carbon pollution has significant and well documented ecological and food security benefits. That’s because rising CO2concentrations enable plants to grow faster and larger and use water more efficiently, and warming lengthens agricultural growing seasons.”

I personally thought that it was pretty enlightening and worth reading.

I have no idea where all the doom and gloom is coming from. I am certainly not seeing it.

J