The Official teachers Are Not Underpaid Thread

Discussion in 'Pandora's Box' started by mandrin13, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. #21 Meursault, Jun 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2013
    Yep. You're the one who has chosen to single out teachers... 
     
    And as for your second paragraph there...as I've already pointed out, the "average" doesn't point out the very real cap on salary that you hit around 70k (in CA) that you would not find in other professions. When you're working in the public sector, there is usually a ceiling. Not so in the private sector. Is working for 15 years as a teacher to get to the highest pay category and make around 70k for the rest of my life worth it, when I could go to work for Northrop and be making 70k within the next 6 years easily, and then continue to advance
     
    And, I've tried to keep the subjectivity out of this as much as possible....but to claim that most other professionals work as hard as teachers do every day, especially when it comes to unpaid overtime, is just complete bullshit. Teaching requires your full engagement with your work all day. If you work on spreadsheets all day and you let your attention lapse....no one knows or cares. If you let your attention lapse in the classroom....things go very wrong very quickly. People like you who don't appreciate what teachers go through ought to volunteer at a public school. Just go for an hour a week. Come talk to me after a couple months of that.  -_-
     
    Middle school teachers.....get away with not doing much? Lol. Elementary is great, and high school is fine. Middle will steal your soul. 
     
    PS: For the record, I am not a teacher myself, though I come from a family of them and have volunteered extensively on various fronts of public education for the past 6 years. 

     
  2. #22 mandrin13, Jun 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2013
     
    hahaha
     
    edit: I wasnt going to respond since you seem to already have made up your mind about me, but I also acknowledge that on the internet it is easy to misinterpret...which is why I chose to ignore your "fuck you buddy"comment in the other thread where I mentioned teachers.  I suppose the hahah is not very adult like and I would rather keep this thread civil and on topic and will just ignore any future ignorant comments from anyone, as its the internet and your free to do what you like.  I feel I have been very fair in this thread, and have not once degraded a teacher to my knowledge, nor said I do not appreciate teachers, yet you seem to be jumping to that conclusion.  If I say teachers get what is fair that is not a lack of appreciation (and I in fact said this in previous posts), yet you seem to be accusing me of being "one of those people who dont appreciate teachers", since gasp, I question their pay rate...assuming I am interpreting your posts correctly.
     
     
    Yes this thread is on teachers, and you criticized the method of comparison for such a large number of teachers across the US.  My point is that I cannot possibly break down a pay rate per teacher, just like I cannot possibly break it down for any profession, and while you can focus on that the wntire time, I would rather focus on why teachers feel they are underpaid as I stated in the original post.  I will continue to focus on teachers as I have done, and due to the large numbers will be forced to generalize them as a whole.
     
    Regarding the advancement cap, I find that a bit weak, sorry.  Your job stays relatively the same year after year, yet teachers complain that they cannot advance.  I am providing information showing that you can at least advance pay wise, which naturally has a limit, true of any profession.  I have also said you can move on to private schools and universities as you gain experience, which would seem like career advancements to me.  Anyone who works their way up a corporate ladder takes on greater responsibilities as they advance, and thus greater pay, but eventually will not be able to make anymore.  Teachers chose to follow this profession knowing the pay limit, which is why I cannot understand all the complaining.  Its not like they were tricked into it.
     
    I said that the excuse that teachers take work home is invalid, as most of us do this.  In the end you saying the opposite doesnt make it anymore or less valid than me saying otherwise, let alone "bullshit".  If I have an "attention lapse" peoples lives are potentially put at risk, but that is neither here nor there as this is simply a personal comment, as is yours.  To say others dont work as hard as teachers is equally ridiculous as people who say teachers dont work hard as others, and those are comments I dont believe I have said.
     
    I am sure that all levels of education will test people at times, elementary can be hell with the wrong kids, just like middle school, just like high school can be hell with the wrong kids, so lets not make this a debate between teachers of what years are worse.  Even with the same grades the location will greatly affect what the experience is like.
     
  3. K
     
  4. #25 Meursault, Jun 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2013
    If you think that the workload is the same for teachers and non-teachers, then you do not fully appreciate the work they do. Sorry, that's simply not the case. I don't care what your conservative thinktank that you posted in the OP has to say (LMAO!).....I know many teachers that are up until 10 or 11 every night simply to get their grading, IEPs, report cards, w/e done. All of the clerical work that is expected to be handled by teachers is expected to be handled at home, unpaid. Summer vacation is not really just vacation either. It's full of inservices, other forms of (forced) career development, and usually, summer school. Is an obviously biased study any more valid than me talking about my personal experiences? I don't really think so....
     
     
     
    Okay, and the stats that you post will continue to prove nothing.
     

     
    Relatively the same year after year? Please! Curriculum is always changing and becoming more stringen, while budget is always going down and you are expected to be in school yourself for most of your career. Every year teaching becomes a more thankless job. And the problem with saying, "Oh you just become a professor then! Duh!" is that this is a qualitatively different job. We need good, talented and experienced elementary school teachers just as much or more than good professors, but there is absolutely no system in place to retain them. So, you can either raise the salary cap for teachers or you can not bitch when the quality of teaching goes down because there's such a high turnover rate. You cannot have it both ways. 
     

     
    No. Most of us do not take home 6-8 hours of unpaid overtime on a consistent basis. Not even close. If you do that, you either work for a really shitty company, are self-employed, or you are a teacher. All I'm saying is that, for the salary, working with children is one of the hardest things you'll ever do. If you don't buy that, I encourage you to try it just a tinnnyyyyy bit. There are plenty of opportunities. Until you've done so, in both the public and the private sector, you're just talking out of your ass. 
     
     
    Again, this gives me more than a sneaking suspicion that you have no experience in schools lol...I don't have anything against middle school students, and of course every class at every school is different. But, everything else being equal....those kids will put you through the ringer lol. Most teachers shy away from middle school once they've tried it, and most districts pay subs more to go to middle schools than to high schools or elementary. There is a reason for that.

     
  5. All depends on the state.  WV has some of the lowest paid teachers in the US, according to this chart(http://www.wvea.org/Legislative-Action-Center/Salary-Schedules.aspx)
    starting at 28,000/yr. and after 35 years making only 41,000/yr. without higher education than a required undergraduate degree.  A maximum of $58,000/yr after 35 years with a Doctorate.  That's way to low, at least for what teachers are SUPPOSED to be doing.  Now, considering that the CSOs are getting increasingly shitty to prep kids for standardized tests that show no accurate representation of intelligence thanks to old Bushy Jr. (worst president we've had in a goddAMN long time!), I may consider this a decent pay if it was the teachers responsible.  Instead, I've seen no teacher (including my mother and some of my friends) that actually agrees with the changes pushed by the state dept. and only do what they're told to keep their job, which is goddamn ridiculous.  The No Child Left Behind Act sent the education system into a downward spiral creating a generation of more ignorant children who aren't taught to think, but how to recite off random information given them trusting that it is true without questioning it.  But back on topic, it all depends on the state.
     
  6. In my personal opinion teachers have a priceless job. Children shape the future of the country, teachers prepare these children for this. Now our system of teaching children may not be great but you do not blame the teachers for this. Not just anyone can teach, go sit inside a standard or intermediate class in a decently sized high school and you will be in for a rude awakening.
     
    Yes you can argue that they picked their jobs, which they did. They signed up for the job, knowing the pay was low and knowing the conditions were bad all because they love what they do. Go to all most any other profession and you will not find that at least 90% of those people enjoy their job, but at schools you will.
     
    In Florida, we are a Right To Work state, so teachers have a lot of trouble striking. We are also are on a pay freeze, this being our 6th year I think.
     
  7. I think that it still depends on the teacher. They should be paid more based on if they do a good job.

    I had one english teacher in high school who drove a dodge charger, his wife(also an amazing teacher) had a brand new jeep, and i had seen their house just walking by it and it was huge. But he also helped EVERY student and would proof read my essay five times over if i asked. He deserved his pay and probably more, he went above and beyond what most teachers do.

    But ive also had teachers who have nice vehicles, house, etc but wont help a student unless they sucked up to them. They shouldnt have even had a job as a teacher
     
  8. Yes I certainly can see how behaviorally middle school can be overwhelming. I was just refering to the fact that you only have to organize work for a 45 min block and extrapolate that for 6 periods. So as far as organization of classroom material and time dit seems like less. Not oncluding c hanges for advanced or ap classes. You do have more students , a lot more, so more papers to grade for that individual subject. But for elementary you have to lesson plan for various subjects and cover a lot more time since there's no repetition of classes. They both have there pluses and minuses and it depends on the teacher which is best for them. For some teachers middle school is the toughest. But I bet a lot would cast there vote for special ed. Where I worked, teachers have a mix of low and high functioning students so you are dealing with prep for state standard tests and at the same timehaving kids with behavior plans, which could mean spending hours a day with behavioral interventions.
     
  9. You can't judge the worthiness of a job by "average salary."

    Example

    A teacher in the hamptons may make upwards of $100,000 a year

    A teacher in inner city Detroit may make $30,000 a year

    Thus making the average $65,000/year.

    And that's just BS. Averages mean shit in the USA where we have such a pluralistic society and different socioeconomic classes
     
  10. i can attest to the fact that some teachers aren't underpaid. most of the teachers at the high school i went to had nice cars
     
    and i take care of this woman's lawn, its like my landscaping job, she's a teacher who has been working at a middle school for 10 years.  despite the average-looking home she lives in, she is able to support two children by paying for their education and apartments
     
  11.  
     
    But does she not deserve all of that? I mean, not her specifically, but "her" being a teacher in general. Is it unreasonable for her to be a teacher who has a nice car, an average home, and the ability to provide for her kids while they're in school? That honestly sounds pretty fair to me. :confused_2: 
     
  12.  
    it is fair. i described it that way meaning that people think teachers are "underpaid" compared to making "a lot of money like they should"
     
  13.  
     
    Ahh, gotcha. :smoking: 
     
    Definitely doesn't apply to all teachers though. I'm sure my teacher friend would be thrilled if he could afford a nice car and a nice house and providing for his kids while they're in school and all that. 
    That's just why averages are silly in situations like this though. :p
     
  14. #35 *guest, Jun 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
    This seems totally relevant to this thread... 
     
    Portland, Oregon teachers face unprecedented attack on jobs, work rights
     
     
     
     
    OP mentioned in the first post that average teacher wages were around $60,000 a year. The average teacher pay in my county is about $56,000 a year. 
     
    Meanwhile, check out the wages of school board employees: http://schools.oregonlive.com/salaries/
    One superintendent in Beaverton makes nearly $250,000 a year. A principal at a high school in the same city makes nearly $150,000 a year.
    Teachers in that city? Between $40,000 and $70,000 a year with a Bachelor degree, not much more with a Master's. 
     
    Does that not seem a bit crazy to anyone else? 
     
  15. #36 Meursault, Jun 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
    Oh for sure, special ed. is like a whole different ball game - especially severe emotional disturbance classes/schools.
     
  16. Teachers certainly aren't underpaid in Canada. I knew one teacher in high school, he was cool, I liked him. He told me he just got his salary upgraded (I think because of seniority or something) to like 75 grand a year. He's only been working as a teacher for like 10 years or something, and with less school, he's making almost as much as my brother, who is a mechanical engineer and had a much harder and longer education.
     
    Plus in my 12-13 years in the public school system, I had to deal with 3 or 4 unions strikes, just within that time period. Also for my last 2 years the teachers union wasn't providing any "auxilary" services like special ed teachers, and extracirriculars like sports, music, etc.
     
    Plus you have to remember that teachers probably work less days a year than anybody else making a comparable salary. 2.5 months off in the summer, 2 weeks in March, a week in December, they don't get a raw deal at all in my opinion.
     
  17. #38 Capt Soydog, Jun 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013


    <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >Meanwhile, check out the wages of school board employees: http://schools.oregonlive.com/salaries/
    One superintendent in Beaverton makes nearly $250,000 a year. A principal at a high school in the same city makes nearly $150,000 a year.
    Teachers in that city? Between $40,000 and $70,000 a year with a Bachelor degree, not much more with a Master's.

    Does that not seem a bit crazy to anyone else?

    </blockquote>
    The number of students in the Beaverton school district is insane, high level administrators should get paid more when they have more shit to deal with.
     
  18.  
     
    But why do they deserve so much more than the teachers who are actually dealing with those students on a daily basis and are responsible for actually teaching them? :confused: 
     
  19. Do you think they just sit in their office all day and read magazines, then come speak at assemblies?

    They make decisions on things that have not only an impact on their school or district, but their communities as well. Very infrequently do they do solely their own jobs, shit my principle was practically a part time janitor because there wasn't enough money to pay someone to scrub shitters.

    Basically, their wide range of tasks and working in a management position make them worthy of higher pay.
     

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