The Illusion of Free Will

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by thabosshogg, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. #1 thabosshogg, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
    Do we ever make a choice?



    I personally don't think we have free will.



    It's kind of like "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind", where, if you go back and re-experience everything you have ever done, without knowledge of the future, you would make the same choice and re-live the exact same thing every time.


    So really, our entire existence just "happens" to us, or at least the majority of us. Which is funny because we get so frustrated about our choices, our actions, and events in our lives, when they happen the only way they could ever happen.


    These events just happen to us, they are not us. They are not our choices, we just respond to what happens in the only way we could ever respond at that exact moment in time.


    Our "choices" are really just a mathematical equation in our heads, that will work out the same way every time, given the same variables (i.e. past experiences, what is going on in our lives at that point, what was on our mind earlier that day, what is going on around us at that moment, and so on and so forth).

    So does anyone have free will?


    I would say some people do, but only those who are in complete control of every factor in their existence, i.e., what some would call the most "enlightened" individuals, and even out of the most "enlightened" there would only be a select few in the entire world.



    This is all just my opinion regarding free will... what do you think about free will?
     
  2. I don't believe we have total free will. There are already rules that govern our choices, gravity, aging, time, laws of physics and I believe that there are other rules that govern our choices when it comes to free will as well, we just don't understand them.

    I believe we are given a set of choices and we can make them as we please giving us the illusion of free will but in the end, the major things in our lives, including our death are predetermined and unavoidable.
     
  3. Free-will exists... Some things are unavoidable (aging, death, loss, regulation), but overall, we are in control of our progression. It's simply individual flaw that sets up for a disastrous end... I've written about this subject for my English class on Oedipus.
     
  4. I think free will does exist, that although there are various forces governing movement and actions, our thoughts have the random element to introduce chaos.
     

  5. But if free will didn't exist how would we know?
    If free will DOES exist, why can't I do all the things that I want to do? It's because we don't truly have free will. Rules govern our lives and existence, societal norms, traffic lights, gravity.

    I do believe we make choices, but the choices that we make bring us to our final "destiny" anyway.
     
  6. In a sense, there essentially is no such thing as freewill or fate alone. They are essentially one in the same, two different parts of the same whole.
    It's just being.

    The Moment is freedom. — I couldn't live by a rigid schedule. I try to live freely from moment to moment, letting things happen and adjusting to them.




    thabosshogg
    : You have a very good point though. I think about that a lot..like if I live my life over and over again eternally(really bad deja-vu). Or that im in the witnessing my life flash before my eyes during my death.

    Whether any of that matters..maybe in the totality of things. But right now it does not. And it's highly possible that theory is not the Truth. It's only a reflection of how I feel. And how it can manifest into my actual life.

    What you think you become. You can choose to do something. Or let fate fall upon the men who do not act.

    And I don't believe enlightening people have complete control of every factor in their existence. I don't have control over what you do, now do I?
     
  7. #7 Kardredor, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
    We all have influence though.

    All there really is is awareness, and we all get to perceive things our own way. Everything anyone does to you influences the way you perceive things, which is our ego is it not? There is desire, and whatever you want to perceive is what is.

    Physical free will doesn't really matter anyway if we're all just awareness and thoughts in the end.

    It's the thought that counts.
     



  8. I agree, they do not have complete control, but they do have a greater degree of control over their will. So in other words they too are affected by happenings in their life beyond their control, but I think they have more free will in their decision making process, in that they can will to will something (compared to someone who's will is determined by their thoughts, their past experiences, etc..., I think a person can reach a level of enlightenment when their will is controlled by themselves, regardless of outside factors).
     
  9. See, you think that you are living freely, but why would one be aware of if we had free will or not? If I choose, through free will, to stand on the ceiling right now, can I? No. I do not have free will because the rules of gravity apply.

    You choose to live your life freely but how do you know that's not your path in life? You THINK you are living freely and making your own choices, and I do believe we make a certain amount of free will in meaningless choices, but all those choices bring us closer to where we are meant to be.

    People seem to assume that people who believe in fate are waiting for life to happen to them, just like you address, but that isn't so. Fate can happen by giving us the illusion of choices that we make. The illusion of deciding to be a certain way, but that could also just be what you were going to do all along.
     


  10. :hello:

    Exactly. In my opinion, the illusion of free will is a vehicle for fate.
     
  11. #11 nepo, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
    After long hard months of thinking on this subject, and even suffering an "external locus of control" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control for more info. on that) perception on life from it, I've come to the conclusion that there's no real free will. That doesn't mean we don't have free will. Sounds strange, I know, but no-free will coexists with having free will.

    We chose to do what we do, because we want to.
    Why do we want to do what we do though? That's ultimately out of our hands and traces back to an uncountable amount of reasons and factors in the universe.
    The complexity of these factors, though, is what makes free will indistinguishable from not having free will.

    It's like the concept of destiny. Everything has been predetermined from the start of the universe... but it's not really practical to live by that, since we don't understand the complexity of the universe.
    Ultimately, in a first person perspective, we do have free will. In an omnipresent, "universal" perspective, we don't. The "bigger picture" has laid out destiny for us, but we're not the bigger picture. We're part of it. Part of the system. That's why the illusion of free will exists, because for us humans, it's real. :smoke:
     
  12. Exactly that's how I feel.
     
  13. In relation to this topic, atoms behave in a predictable manor, our minds are made up of nothing but trillions of atoms...
     
  14. I believe we have limited free will. I can choose my lunch, my clothes i wear, the music i want to listen to...but the major milestones in life are unavoidable. if i had total free will then everything i could possibly choose from would be available to me instead of a pool of choices governed by what someone else had chosen. i.e. for lunch i could choose anything available to me but what is available is not completely in my control. the people who hired me and govern what my pay is dictates what i can afford and what the manager of supermarket stocks and price also dictate what i can or cant have. its not me choosing something or not choosing something because i have a taste for it.

    as long as other peoples choices dictate and control what you can choose you can never have full free will. if i had complete free will this world would be in trouble. dinosaurs vs zombies kind of trouble.
     
  15. #15 teh_biscuit, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
    You keep saying "we" and tell me "you are this".....speak for yourself..

    Reality is apparent one ceases to compare. It just is. It is the wholeness of things. I am free to be with the moment.[FONT=&quot][/FONT] This is the liberation of duality.

    What about the illusion of fate?
    It's all just words. Ultimate Truth is beyond limitations, confinements, attachments.


    I don't think you understood what you quoted in bold.
     
  16. #16 Kardredor, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
    I could care less if we have free will, because right now I'm at a good point in my life and I'm just learning how to express myself more and more. Why would I want to choose to do anything else?
     
  17. I think we do have free will in some sort of sense, but it is not the free will that religious vs non debate. Free will, to me, is the ability to act against chemical reactions of the brain. Our physical bodies are bound to nature, but our minds are not. We have the ability of foresight, hinsight, etc. We can describe beauty fealt by the heart rather than of the brain.

    It seems much more reasonable to believe that physical existence is a playground for intelligent beings to rise up and use this free will.
     
  18. We can describe and generalize it, but we can't express direct feeling. Soon enough, hopefully.
     

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