Started a Thermal Compost Pile

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by Seven Flower, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. #1 Seven Flower, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012
    I started a thermal compost pile for next year with a couple bales of straw, big block of peat, bone meal, dried blood, greensand, alfalfa pellets (no meal readily available), some leftover plant tone, egg shells, coffee grounds, and weeds/rogued-out plants from the garden. I'm still trying to find some kelp and neem meal to go in there as well, and I'm gearing up to grow some biodynamic accumulators, do FPEs, start a bokashi bin (working on my BIM culture), make some AACTs, start a vermicompost bin, etc.... but that will happen over the next few months. I have fresh kelp readily available, but I suspect it's prospering due to people dumping chemical fertilizers into the water, so I'd rather not use that.

    Now some questions! First, I'm hoping to take this compost (which will hopefully be bacterially dominant), mix it with peat, perlite, and vermiculite to use as my final soil mix (as well as using it as starter for all my other projects once it's cooler). I'd like the compost to supply all the nutrients, which is why I've mixed everything into the compost pile. Is it a bad idea to put the bone meal, dried blood, greensand, and plant tone into my compost? I'm hoping that the microbial life will process it into a more usable form for my plants later on down the line and benefit directly from it themselves.

    Second, it's been a few days since I started it, and we've had some good soaking rains. I checked it this morning, and it's really hot. I wasn't expecting it to heat up so fast (I'm blaming the alfalfa!), but once you skim off the top layer, it's steaming pretty nicely. I don't have a soil thermometer (yet), so I'm looking for some way to gauge what's too hot and the best way to slow it down if necessary. TWM suggests watering and turning it as methods to cool it down, with watering being the more drastic, but I don't think those are going to cool it down very much or for very long. I also suspect I have a quite happy soil food web starting in there, as well as in my garden, for there is a plethora of beasties and the plants dont seem to be the worse off for what I used to consider "pests".

    So, what can the fine folks of GC's organic section recommend that I do differently now or in the future? What am I lacking and/or what should I not have added to the pile? Earballs open, ready to learn!
     
  2. #2 Possuum, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012


    CongratZ man! You are well on your way to producing the absolute BEST (on the better/best scale) soil conditioner and fertlizer that has ever been produced on terra firma.

    Rodale Institute could well be considered THE authority on composting but we'll leave that to the critics to decide Rodale Institute, Organic Pioneers since 1947

    This book, The Rodale Book of Composting: Easy Methods for Every Gardener, for about $12 will advance you to the point where you will be extremely successful. No stoner science here at Rodale. Pure academia.

    The number one thing any of us need to be cognizant of and completely understand when composting is the carbon:nitrogen (C:N) ratio. It's not an exact science, rather KY windage when estimating but estimate we should and follow the recommendations for C:N ratio. That is what will ensure success.

    Diversify. You need manure. You'll find out why when you read the book :).

    Keep stoking and composting and I guarantee you that when you mix your soil next year the only thing you'll need to add is an areation ammendment, alfalfa, kelp, water. Bingo!

    Good luck and enjoy the wonderful world of composting. You get this figured out (which you easily will) and you will grow plants of every variety that will be the envy of all your friends and neighbors ;)
     
  3. Oh and one more thing and this is extremely important!

    Do not ever, and I mean not once, put even one Tbsp of unfinished compost in your soil mix and in your plant container. If you do you will run an exceedinly high risk of killing your plants. You'll read about this when you study up on compost. The short version of "why" is long-chained alcohols produced by the 1st and 2nd level decomposers as a byproduct of lignin decomposition (this is the carbon side of the C:N ratio) is, in part, "alcohols". One molecule of alcohol will KILL a tiny plant root on contact.

    Ensure your compost is "finished". This is a term used by professional composters.

    Whole books are written on composting and various methods to achieve a similar end result so attempting to abstract the finer points of composting is not recommended as some key piece of info will be overlooked. Like long-chain alcohols in the compost pile. I compost in a plastic tote. You are doing it most correctly by performing this task outside and using a method similar to the Linore method of composting. Read the book :)

    Buy the book. What you learn in the book I posted will more than offset the $12 cost in that you will never ever have to buy much of any other kind of plant "fertiliser" to grow. Once you get into it you will observe the produce isle of the grocery store with a different eye than the eye connected to your stomach ;) All of that wonderful looking produce at the store is destined for the recycle barrel if it doesn't sell. Besides, it's cheap enough to buy spoiled lettuce et al by the CASE if you get in good with the produce manager.

    I highly recommend adding legumes and cucumbers and alfalfa sprouts to your compost pile. They will be very cheap when the produce manager and you become friends and she is able to sell cheaply to you versus her throwing the produce in the hog bin out back of the store. A lot of hog farmers purchase old produce from grocery stores to feed their hogs, pigs, swine, etc. PorK! Pigs eat "garbage".
     
  4. #4 Seven Flower, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012
    Thank you! It's an honor to have your presence over here on this thread. I've run across so many useful and informative posts by you that I can't even remember what I learned from you specifically (it's a staggering amount). Thanks for all the info and I hope you can keep on educating us all. :hello:

    Added to the shopping list!

    Here, I cheated somewhat. I went mostly from memory on what amendments to use, recent reading (TWM!), and personal preference. So, while we're here, I'm going to try and work up an estimate of what's already in there. The values are taken from:



    Now, the compost mix. I think I got the sizes of the amendments right, but I don't have the bags on hand anymore:


    • 10.5 cf straw (0.5 - 0.15 - 0.6) (green material)
    • 50 lbs alfalfa pellets (3 - 1 - 2)
    • 4 cf peat (? - ? - ?) (brown material)
    • 17 lbs dried blood (12 - 0 - 0)
    • 10 lbs bone meal (4 - 12 - 0)
    • 36 lbs greensand (0 - 0 - 0.1) (added for trace nutrients)
    • 10 lbs plant tone (5 - 3 - 3) (leftover)
    • n/a coffee grounds (2.08 - 0.32 - 0.28) (insignificant amount)
    • n/a egg shells (1.19 - 0.38 - 0.14) (insignificant amount)
    • n/a other plant matter (? - ? - ?) (insignificant amount)

    So, now, my question is, given these NPK values and amounts of the various materials, how do I calculate the NPK of the mix? Do I need to weight (multiply) each N, P, and K value for each amendment, relative to the amount, then add all the respective N, P, and K together? Also, how would I begin to calculate the C:N ratio here?

    Can I ask for a spoiler now? I considered adding manure, but held off because I was worried about pathogenic organisms. If I stick to herbivores (presumably cattle and fowl?), will I avoid issues with composting meat/manure from carnivores?

    So, just keep adding material and turning it to cool it down? Guess I need to find me a pitchfork. It's a BIG pile. And by aeration amendment, do you mean perlite, or peat and perlite together?

    Thank you again! I think I'm well on my way with the rich variety of resources available around these parts, though over the past couple years, I've started to realize just how wrong everything I did as a gardener was. Live and learn. :cool:
     
  5. Disregard NPK amounts. They aren't going to mean diddly in a diverse compost. You'll just drive yourself crazy trying to get amounts correct.

    Besides the blood you seem to have a nice mix happening. If its already in there it won't be a deal breaker, but I might not add it myself.

    Lots and lots of autumn leaves will help you considerably come fall. Take Possums advice and get a mess of manure - horse, cow, chicken- into the mix.

    The very best advice that I can give anyone starting a compost heap is to not rush it! Time is your friend - be patient. I waited 3 years (very impatiently) before mine was finally mature enough to add to my soil mix, and lemme tell ya, it was well worth the wait!

    Get a second heap going come fall so that you won't be waiting. I keep multiple heaps going in various stages of decomposition.

    I made a screen with a wood frame (2"X6"'s) and 1/2" hardware cloth screen. Once the material started breaking down well I screened it all rubbing it thru the screen. It helps to make it all consistently sized and mixes it well together before use. Compost can be very heavy and "clumpy". This helps to really fluff it up.

    You're spot on by adding your soil amendments to your compost. I do the same with both compost and worm bins. Many amendments take awhile to break down and be "usable" to your plants. Composting them all first is simply ideal. I didn't notice but if you haven't, source some glacial rock dust to add to your mix. This kind of diverse compost also makes perfect worm food - utilize it as such!

    This is one of the very best things an organic gardener can do for themselves - congratulations!

    Jerry.
     
  6. #6 Possuum, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012


    You're welcome. Pay it forward ;) If you ever catch me posting something inaccurate by all means challenge me on it. Reinforcement is a critical learning process.



    You don't calculate traditional NPK vlaues when using compost. And quite frankly putting a NPK value on a fertilser is simply state law. If if weren't for the law (the label IS the law) then fertiliser companies wouldn't put it on there. Here's something to think about off point of compost but on point with NPK. The label on the bag is the minimum amount of guaranteed analysis. Uh oh! so does that mean my bag of complete dry fert carrying a label of 4-1-5 as 4% N in it. YeH. Guaranteed. But what that label doesn't tell you (among many things) is that in fact your 4-1-5 fertiliser my contain MORE N than 4% it's just that the company will NOT warrant that it does. Hmmm. Something to noodle on.

    With compost we never, ever, wonder about the NPK value of the compost.




    Compost purists will drive their stake in the ground to declare than any quality compost will contain manure from an equine, bovine, swine, rabbit, or any other herbivore but never from a carnivore. Herbivore's carry unique bacteria in their gut that helps to break down the green leafy materials they forage on. I won't get into my opinion on which manure is "best' but personally I will use rabbit manure over any other and it will be seconded by bovine, then equine. Swine... fogedaboudit.

    Withstanding discussion of antibiotics and other "things" that might be found in equine manure and those that might survive a composting adventure, I personally put equine and bovine on the same level but that's because my source of equine manure is known and it is known that the equine are fed only high quality alfalfa, oat, and barley for meals. The grass they forage on is untouched by any chemical. So, in this case I'm long on equine manure.



    Areation is perlite, rice hulls, or whatever the current "best" flavor of areation component is. Again, personally speaking, I've got no axe to grind about perlite. I use copious amounts of the large, chunky perlite. I don't use the smaller version any more. In the case of perlite, bigger IS better ;) IMO.




    That's what we're all doing bro - living and learning. I try to learn something new everyday. As it relates to gardening with cannabis, keep it simple and you'll have stellar results.

    Spread the word! Compost rocks! :metal:If one gardens organically one simply can NOT garden without it. Good luck man and I will once again promise that if your produce a quality finished product you will have gardening success like you've never had it before. Think "Jack in the Beanstalk" or something similar. You'll be amazed. I promise. You will never look back ever again. Forever. And that's a very long time. :)

    :bongin::bongin::bongin::smoking:
     
  7. #7 mjmama25, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012
    This thread is gold. So much good info gathered into one spot with no bullshit bad info to muck it up. Thanks guys.

    PS-I just put a link to this page in my grow log so hopefully more people will come read it.
     

  8. Hey Mama!

    After the compost discussion this morning j went out and turned compost for an hour *lol*

    Seven - thanks for the reminder!

    J
     
  9. Compost Happens.

    Unknown Organic Terrorist.

    J
     
  10. Hey guys I have a quick question. I know my compost needs more carbon. It's something I've been thinking about for a while. The problem is, I've found patches of powdery mildew on a couple of trees on my land. Once the leaves fall all the bad and healthy get mixed together and I'm scared to add the PM bearing leaves to my compost.

    So, my question is, will the PM spread to plants grown in the compost mix in the future, or will the bacteria in the compost make fast work of the PM?

    And if I shouldn't use the PM laden leaves, what could be another possible source of carbon?
     
  11. #11 Seven Flower, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2012
    Disregarded! But, before I totally forget about it, I have something of a theoretical question. This stems from an interest I have in biodomes/self-contained habitats. If you were able to account for the materials going into your compost, and have some means of sampling and identifying the organisms present, shouldn't it be possible, if very difficult, to work out the amounts of nutrients available in their different proportions (similar to working out a problem in chemistry, where you have to calculate the amounts of reagents and products)? My hunch is that you'd need to know both the chemicals (used here in its most generic term, without reference to gardening), the organisms present, and the reaction conditions over time (to account for what got converted into what, taken up, exuded, etc.)? Just a thought, not really something I'm ready to tackle.

    It's already in there, but I'm curious why you prefer not to use it?

    Wow! I'm hoping to speed this up and be able to use some of it by next year. Guess we'll see, because I don't want any long-chain alcohols (thank you Possum!) killing my plants. I mulch heavily with straw, and haven't experienced any negative effects, but it's also not decomposing nearly as fast.

    Great! I just picked up a copy, right after reading your replies! I know what I'll be spending my weekend reading. Plus, it has plans for all sorts of compost bins, and now I'm definitely trying to think of a way to screen large amounts of compost. Jerry, how much compost do you normally screen at once? My pile probably covers 12 square feet or so.

    Thank you! I was on the fence about creating this thread, because I was sure I'd managed to waste a goodly chunk of soil amendments, but you've all inspired confidence in this approach!

    Hi Mama! I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer this, since my own culture isn't ready yet, but I noticed that lacto bacillus is recommended for getting rid of powdery mildew, so perhaps pre-composting those leaves in a bokashi bucket could kill the PM? And thank you for the link! (Even though it's really Possum and Jerry providing all the juicy info here!)
     
  12. Disregarded! But, before I totally forget about it, I have something of a theoretical question. This stems from an interest I have in biodomes/self-contained habitats. If you were able to account for the materials going into your compost, and have some means of sampling and identifying the organisms present, shouldn't it be possible, if very difficult, to work out the amounts of nutrients available in their different proportions (similar to working out a problem in chemistry, where you have to calculate the amounts of reagents and products)? My hunch is that you'd need to know both the chemicals (used here in its most generic term, without reference to gardening), the organisms present, and the reaction conditions over time (to account for what got converted into what, taken up, exuded, etc.)? Just a thought, not really something I'm ready to tackle.

    For me to answer the whole NPK question in regards to organics would take me a bit. I'd like for you to take a look here at this thread - http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/336810-evaluating-n-p-k-numbers-organic-fertilizers.html

    Please take my word for it that the original poster, Lumperdawgz knew what he was talking about. NPK applies much more to chemical fertilizers than it does organics - but take a momet to look at the thread and it will help considerably to explain why.

    Re: blood & bone - This is really the gardeners preference and I should have said so from the get go. I don't like adding these items for a couple of reasons. While I'm not as against bone as much as I am about blood, I usually like to use fish bone meal vs. livestock bone meal and alfalfa as a replacement for blood meal. To me it's just kinda gross. I've been ankle deep in blood on the killing floors when I was a teenager and can still smell it. I'd rather use fish or plant based items these days - again, it's simply a preference.

    Wow! I'm hoping to speed this up and be able to use some of it by next year. Guess we'll see, because I don't want any long-chain alcohols (thank you Possum!) killing my plants. I mulch heavily with straw, and haven't experienced any negative effects, but it's also not decomposing nearly as fast.

    You'll see what I mean when you get further into this. While hot, thermal compost will break down fairly quickly - especially if you continuously turn your heap(s), I prefer a longer, cooler compost. It does take much longer, but now that I have the initial waiting period done, with multiple heaps from multiple years to back me up with this method, I feel that the longer, cooler compost gives me a (slightly) better end product.

    You absolutely are not wasting your amendments by adding them directly to your compost - you're doing yourself a favor - a huge favor. Many amendments take quite awhile to break down - take greensand (years) and fossilized guanos (years) or bone meal (minimum 6 months) By composting your amendments you're just making them more ready for your plants to be able to use - this is just common sense and you're definetly on the right track.

    I'm working on getting my own gardening to a point where every amendment used gets run thru the worm bins and compost heaps prior to use. This way, when I go to mix a soil, the ingredients for me will be earthworm castings, compost, Pro Mix and an aeration amendment and I'm done - with no "cooking" time - just mix it and use it.

    Jerry.
     
  13. You'll see what I mean when you get further into this. While hot, thermal compost will break down fairly quickly - especially if you continuously turn your heap(s), I prefer a longer, cooler compost. It does take much longer, but now that I have the initial waiting period done, with multiple heaps from multiple years to back me up with this method, I feel that the longer, cooler compost gives me a (slightly) better end product.
    Hey Jerry, not only will it give you a better end product, you should not have to worry about your compost not being 'finished'.

    I'm working on getting my own gardening to a point where every amendment used gets run thru the worm bins and compost heaps prior to use. This way, when I go to mix a soil, the ingredients for me will be earthworm castings, compost, Pro Mix and an aeration amendment and I'm done - with no "cooking" time - just mix it and use it.

    Jerry, I am at this point and 'how much easier can things get?'. lol
    Everything goes through the hot compost and if it is not quite 'finished', not a problem as it is going to be making a pass through the flow-through worm reactor. Again, everything goes through the composting process or it at least goes through the bin. The worms complete it.

    I can turn out as much or as little vermicompost as I want. By regulating the amount of foodstock they receive I can turn out many gallons a week or just one or none!

    Sam
     
  14. #14 Possuum, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2012


    How about this instead?

    The path of least resistance to get to the same type of information would be to take the finished compost to an agricultural extension office or a local university (attempt) and have the compost quantitatively tested for the breadth of minerals contained in it.

    One of the main obstacles in trying to get this type of information via a census count is the ebb-n-flow of the microbes in the soil. Bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes will go through varying stages of development in their life cycle. Those acids and alkaline chemicals these microbes secrete is largely dependent on what the plant signals them to as well as the normal life cycle. The point being that at any given point in time these critters may be doing one thing or the other but it's gonna be hard to nail down whether their activity produces x or y elemental value.

    It would be much easier to just have the compost tested at the local extension office me thinks. They'll have the gear to do it - for a fee.

    Regardless, get that compost pile a'goin'! :)

    EDIT:

    For example, here is a menu of compost tests performed by the extension office of Penn State Ag.

    Penn State Dept of Agriculture

    I used to know this :bongin::bongin: ... but it escapes me now :bongin::bongin:.... there is a specific reason why the tests for nitrogen are performed only for the NH4 ammonium nitrate, and NO3 nitrate is specifically omitted from all soil/compost testing :bongin::bongin::bongin:. Phuc I can't recall ATM and it's such a simple reason. Phuuuucc.

    Also keep in mind that soil tests don't indicate whether the element is in a plant available form or not. P is a good example. K and Ca might be others. The tests will indicate, sometimes quantitatively, how much P, or K, or Ca, or Mg is present but not that the element is favorable for root absorption. Make sense? So, soil tests are good indicators of elements present but as we know pH, temperature, microbe activity, and a host of other inter-elemental relationships going on impact, sometimes negatively, the soluble form of the element such that it is "unavailable" for plant root uptake.

    Bottom line. Feed your compost pile everything you feel comfortable putting in the pile and nature will take care of it. Turn it frequently and it will finish quicker, all things being equal.

    :smoking:
     
  15. #15 Seven Flower, Aug 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2012

    I've been reading! And this is the first mention of it I've found, on page 53:


    It's still unclear why this occurs to me, so I dug some more, looking for that study. The first thing I found is this, from Fulvic Acid Benefits:




    ---




    *gulp* Minor correction: "Indore" method of composting, pages 139-141 primarily. Also modified and called the "Bangalore method". This is the method I'm using, though I didn't know what it was called until you pointed it out. My heap, however, is not quite so tall as the recommended 5 ft yet.



    ---




    I'm actually not interested in measuring the final product except as verification, and methods in addition to a census count could be employed. I think that any reasonable profile (covering organisms, the different ionic concentrations, other substances, etc.) would actually require many individual methods. My interest in that sort of thing stems more from a desire to predict the breakdown of given substances under given conditions--something that could prove eminently useful to biodome-like environments, given that the entire environment must be supplied up front and all current experiments in that area have failed. It was a theoretical question, not something I intend to put into practice in my outdoor (or even indoor) garden.

    For my gardens, I certainly would rather just send it off to a testing lab. Cheaper, requires far less equipment, and far less brain/computing power than creating or running predictive simulations (my field). As a scientific curiosity, I think it's ripe for exploration. Being able to re-establish a truly self-sustaining organic environment from more basic precursors would be huge.



    ---




    From page 30:




    ---




    Completely understandable. There are certain things that might be useful to me, but make me sick simply from previous negative exposure to them.



    ---




    From page 32-33:


    This also gives another reason, in addition to long-chained alcohols, to avoid using unfinished compost, since you're potentially risking nitrogen lockout or loss with an incorrect C/N ratio or unfinished compost.



    ---



    Thanks for the book recommendation Possum; this is fantastic reading! And, thank you again to everyone else, especially you Jerry, for all the wonderful advice and participation (and putting up with my inane questions!).

    DISCLAIMER: All quotes are here by the provisions of fair use doctrine, for academic discussion.

    Back to the book! :smoke:
     


  16. Yeh .... :bongin::bongin: my memory ... :bongin::bongin: ain't quite ... :bongin::bongin: what it ...: bongin::bongin: youst ... :bongin: to :bongin: BEEEEEEEE !!! :smoking:




    Kewwwwwwwl!



    If you, or anyone else for that matter, wants to get completely disgusted take a TBSP o dried blood meal and put it in a glass of water for a little bit. In all likelihood the result will break them from using blood meal in the garden. It's just plain fuckin' gross and there are much, much, better alternatives to blood meal. Just saying .....




    No problem man. You seem to be a gentle person and a scholar. I enjoyed the convo. Enjoy your composting efforts and just for fun since you've got such a big pile, consider builing a 4x4 "california style" bin. I did a couple of years ago and if done properly you'll get enough compost out of the bottom in 6-9 months. Just never, ever rush it or you'll kill or severely damage your plants... like I did :eek:

    Peace and bountiful harvests!
     
  17. #17 Seven Flower, Aug 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2012
    I'll pass, but good to know I shouldn't try that. :p What do you use in place of blood meal?

    And I'm no sir! I work for a living--two jobs. I just got done with 9 hours of hauling stuff around! Sure, one is physical labor, and one is mental, but I believe in building the mind and body together. Someday, I'll have everything in place and retire to a nice farm in the hills of nowhere... until then, work work work!

    See you around, peace!
     
  18. #18 Thekidthatshigh, Aug 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2012
    I want to make one as well to attract worms
     
  19. So, here we are in September. It doesn't feel like fall yet, but my internal clock is saying fall is coming very soon, followed by winter. My compost heap is for next year, depending on where it's at, but I'd like to keep it cooking through the fall and winter. Pit composting seems like the cheapest option, but I'm worried about it going anaerobic. P38, Jerry, anyone else have any ideas for keeping it alive through the dead of the year?
     
  20. Unless you have the ability to keep it warm year round, it will (the microbes will) go primarily stagnant during freezing cold winter months.

    The very best composts are not constantly, by any means, thermophylic. Having your compost heat up once, initially, is totally sufficient - high temperatures after that are detrimental to the life in your compost.

    Compost can get VERY hot - which is fine initially, but after that new types of bacteria take over, continuing the job of breaking down the organic matter the heap is made from.

    Keep your pile moist. Be patient. Get multiple heaps going over time. Each fall I collect all of my (around an acre) yard and throw them in a massive pile. The next spring I start adding horse manure that we collect all winter. I add a lot of kitchen scraps. I slowly add kelp meal, fish meal, rock dust, alfalfa meal, keeping it moist and turning it when I get the inclanation.

    It takes time. Thus the reason for multiple heaps. The compost I use is always 3 years old. By starting new heaps I'll always be ready.

    Patience means everything, but Compost Happens.

    J
     

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