Hello to everyone! For a while now i want badly to join the organic world of growing . These days i have been reading all the stickys here and got a basic comprehension of the subject. I want to make my own organic mix and let it cook for a month. My intention is to make about 100-200 liters of a soil mix which will be used for 5-10 plants. Threads like this one http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1116550-easy-organic-soil-mix-beginners-30.html simplified things a lot towards my desire to make a simple and effective growing medium. According to this very helpful thread it is going to consist of: Base Soil: 50% Sphagnum Peat Moss 50% Coco Coir Aeration amendment Perlite Worm Humus Nutritional Amendments: Tomato fertilizer in powder form Kelp Meal Mineral Amendments: Dolomite Lime Basalt Dust Additional amendments: Neem meal 1)Any other things i should add to give water only to my babies and some ACT (planning on making a small brewer)? I saw that crab meal and alfalfa meal are also recommended, i don't seem able to find them here. 2)I can't find a product by the name Neem meal, i found Zeo-Neem cake instead. It contains: Humic-Acid Karan-Fyt Neem-Cake Is it the same to neem meal? 3)I plan on putting the soil mix inside 20lt pots, is it ok to leave it there for a month and periodically wet it? 4)Part of this mix is going to be used in some of my babies that are currently in veg, when they will be about to be put into flowering. They are currently sitting in a mix of Biobizz All-Mix and Light-Mix soil. Would any complications arise from transplanting them to the mix i mentioned above and continuing through flowering with water only? That is all for now, i appreciate any answers, wishing you the best guys!
Hey lowryder, Talk to me more about this: Tomato fertilizer in powder form What are the ingredients? The "in powder form" worries me, this sounds like a chemical fertilizer. What I mentioned in the thread was one brand of organic fertilizer by Espoma called "Tomato Tone". It's just a good dry organic fertilizer, but an all-purpose organic fert works just as well. You would not want to use a chemical tomato fertilizer in your garden. You can transplant them before they start flowering. Neem cake=neem meal. It sounds like the product you found also contains karanja meal (neem's wild cousin), which is a plus. Sounds good.
Hello there, thanks a lot for your response! Unfortunately the brand you mentioned is not available where i live, this is why i mentioned that one. You were right, its chemical, so it is automatically excluded from my list. I found another one, by the name Vilmorin, says on the label that it is organic, it is in dry form. That should do? Nice hearing about the neem meal, besides those ingredients it says that it contains N-P-K in slow release form, but does not state the amount of these nutrients. You believe i would be ok with the above list without adding crab or alfalfa meal? Thanks again for your answer and the very useful post you made in this section of the forum!!
Try looking for alfalfa at your local grain/farm/feed type store for livestock. They also sell it to feed pet bunnies at the pet stores. J Edit: don't figure on lime as a "mineral amendment" - at least not as far as amounts added to your mix go. The basalt is excellent and should be added at the rate of 4-5 cups per CF/7.5 gallons. Lime is the gardeners call, and should not exceed 1 cup/CF. J
Thanks a lot for the suggestions Jerry, i am sure they will come in handy! I changed my mind about peat+coir, propably its gonna be only peat moss. I should go with the unfertilized one right? Because i saw that most peat mixes i checked are a bit preferted. Thanks on your advice about lime too, i have heard its pretty easy to fuck it up with this one. Any alternative for crab meal? Or i should not bother with adding something else in its place? And regarding alfalfa, if i don't manage to find any, should cotton seeds be used? They have approximately the same N-P-K, but i know its not optimal because the seeds could have been treated with pesticides (brand is GK-Organics, i dont know if anybody has any experience). Plus they don't contain any triacontanol, but i would like something more in my soil than neem meal+kelp meal. So, say for example that i wanna make 1 CF (7.5 gals) of this soil mix (or ~30 liters if you use metric ). 3 gals of Peat Moss 2.5 gals of Perlite 2 gals of Quality Humus (what is the difference between humus and dry worm castings? Their price difference is vast) 1 cup of dolomite lime 4-5 cups of basalt 1 cup of dry organic fertilizer, 1 cup neem meal, 1 cup alfalfa if i find it, 2 cups of kelp meal. I am mixing them separately of the main soil mix and then add 2-3 cups of their mix to the soil? Thanks for the help so far, thank you for pointing me in the right direction!!
So, say for example that i wanna make 1 CF (7.5 gals) of this soil mix (or ~30 liters if you use metric [Smilie] ). 3 gals of Peat Moss 2.5 gals of Perlite 2 gals of Quality Humus (what is the difference between humus and dry worm castings? Their price difference is vast) 1 cup of dolomite lime 4-5 cups of basalt 1 cup of dry organic fertilizer, 1 cup neem meal, 1 cup alfalfa if i find it, 2 cups of kelp meal. I am mixing them separately of the main soil mix and then add 2-3 cups of their mix to the soil? Thanks for the help so far, thank you for pointing me in the right direction!! Sounds good! EWC is humus. Humus= compost, ewc, leaf mold, etc. ("Alaskan Forest Humus" and similar products are NOT good humus. They are money-stealing products.) If you don't want to use lime, I would suggest you use oyster shell flour. But there's nothing wrong with lime. I vastly prefer calcitic lime (CaCO3) to dolomite lime (CaMg(CO3)2). Oyster shell flour is calcium carbonate (CaCO3), so you can see it provides the same thing as calcitic lime. It just depends on what's available in your area. Oyster shell flour isn't available here, so I would have to ship it in, which would not be (imo) very responsible in terms of being sustainable and earth-friendly. Calcitic lime does the same thing and is cheap and easy to source locally. But you do want to add something (be it lime or oyster shell flour) to provide CaCO3 to help neutralize some of the acidity in the peat moss. Cottonseed meal is not a substitute for alfalfa meal. In addition to the pesticide and herbicide concerns, cottonseed meal is highly acidic. I guarantee you that if you can find cottonseed meal, you can find alfalfa meal, alfalfa pellets, or alfalfa cubes somewhere in your town. The Vilmorin organic fert sounds like it would work. Can you tell us the ingredients that it contains so we can be sure? Shrimp meal or lobster meal is a substitute for crab meal. You can also make your own crustacean meal. Collect some shrimp, lobster, or crab shells (or a combo), and clean and dry them. Then put them in a ziploc bag, put that inside another ziploc bag, wrap the whole thing in an old rag, and run it over with the car. There you go- crustacean meal (this is the same thing you'd be paying for).
Thank you very much, you seem like you've really got the best of the subject! I know that EWC is Humus, its just that they have two different products, one by the name "Worm Humus" at 15$ for 20 liters and another one called "Dry Worm Castings" at 45$ for 5 liters! The price difference is vast and i was wondering why is that. I have dolomite lime, had a hard time finding this one, let alone oyster shell, the market here does not have the product range of your country unfortunately . There could be a product like this but another difficulty i am facing is that we are talking about european market and i live in a country where english does not have a lot to do with my native language, so finding certain things with their names in english is difficult. There could be the exact products i want, but in some cases i don't know how to ask them!! I reject the idea of cottonseed taking your advice, will do my best to find alfalfa. If you say that cottonseed is as tracable as alfalfa i am sure i could find something! About vilmorin, i will have to get to the store, as the dumbasses don't list it in their site and i can't find any info somewhere else. I will notify you as soon as i get back from there about this issue! . Holy fuck, nice idea about the crustacean meal! Ha ha ha, that would be a fun way to make it! Crab meal and the rest of the products you mentioned are sold on horticultural stores or other kind of stores? P.S:With a better search on google i found alfalfa in powder form at 8$ for 250 grams. How many grams is each cup? If its 50 grams, it means i should get two packages.
The dolomite lime will work. Lime is just crushed limestone. I think what you are finding is vermicompost vs pure worm castings. Vermicompost is a blend of worm castings and the worm bedding from the bin, and worm castings is the pure, fine worm castings. Vermicompost is fine, some would even say it's preferable to pure castings. At that price difference I'd absolutely go for the vermicompost (worm humus). 1 cup=8oz=227 g. So each 250g package is a little over a cup of alfalfa meal. Honestly, if you have a pet store in your area you can get alfalfa meal or alfalfa pellets there. It's sold as rabbit food.
Nice explanation of the vermicompost and pure worm humus! Ouch, that means i would need to pay 40-50$ solely for alfalfa. I wanna make about 40 gallons of soil in the first phase, so that means 40-50$ for alfalfa. Another question that comes to my mind, the soil mix you suggested is suitable for autoflowers too? Because i am plannning on growing some autos besides photoperiod plants and after ~1.5 month 9 of them will have to be transferred to the soil mix. In total i have 9 babies vegging now (photoperiod ones). They will be sitting in 2 gal pots soon with Biobizz potting soil. After one month they will be transferred to 5 gal pots with my soil mix. That means 27 gallons of soil required for them. Plus 23 more gallons for the autos, i am aiming for 50 gallons of soil mix in total. Considering peat moss, i guess i should find one with no fertilizers? Does it matter if its black or white peat? Its difficult to find a blend with no fertilizer in it (from the internet).
lowryder, this soil is good for all plants (photo and auto) in all stages of growth. Your peat moss should definitely not have fertilizers added. I have no clue what white peat moss is, but it doesn't sound like the right thing for your garden. Peat moss is a rich, dark brownish-black color. Why are you ordering peat moss on the internet? That's going to be expensive. Can you not find it at a nursery or garden supply store? Don't order the alfalfa online. Go to a pet store and buy some alfalfa pellets. People feed them to their rabbits, and they're just alfalfa meal pressed into a pellet-they fall apart easily when wet.
Found this: " White peat is of botanical origin. White peat consists mainly of a mixture of moderately decomposed remains of different species of peat mosses (Sphagnum sp.) and less remains of herbs. White horticultural peat is collected from the surface of the peat layer using a mechanical cutting method. The white peat is collected using a combined pneumatic and mechanical collecting method. The combined collecting method ensures a more suitable structure for the collected peat (min 40% will be fraction of 10–50 mm) and lower dust content." Of course i am not planning on ordering peat moss from the internet, just checking various sites to find what i am looking for and then visit the corresponding store. I believe i could find it, i have found Lithuanian Peat Moss very close to my house, its unfertilized, but its a mix of black and white peat moss. In fact, peat moss is the least thing that's troubling me in my list (besides dolomite lime and perlite!). After some more checking i found alfalfa in prices of 1$ per kg! With some checking in pet stores i am sure i am gonna find it. To fully understand it, if i get alfalfa pellets, i have to grind them to powder form to mix them with the rest and that's all? Is there anything else needed if i get raw alfalfa? Another problem i have, so far i have only found bags of neem cake of 20 kg, haven't learned the price yet, but i bet its going to be expensive. The same for kelp meal, but i believe i could find some fking bags of kelp at 5 kg and not 20. I don't know about neem cake, i found it only at one store and the rest i have visited don't even know about this stuff. This week i am gonna do all the mixing, so i had better find all the ingredients i am looking for quick. Ah, how easy things would be if i lived in your country!!
You're going to be using the soil a long time. Don't rush things. Get the quality products you want and need - then mix. I
What you are saying bro is true indeed, i am planning on using this soil mix for some time, that's for sure! Its just that i have some babies in veg now, they are gonna be comfortable in their 2 gal pots for 1 more month maximum, after this time, the soil mix will be nescessary. Besides, time is pressing me to have my main grow done by the end of February, that means i must have my soil mix ready by the end of November. Neem cake seems such a nice addition to my soil mix, but 20 kg bag is really unescessary and costly indeed. If i have no other option i am gonna buy this bag (i hope the same does not apply for kelp meal). I guess 2 weeks of mixing the soil would not be enough, right?
You can order the best organic neem from India - neemresource.com 5 pounds for ten bucks or 44 pounds for fifty four dollars, but I guess it's a time thing for you. Your mix probably will not be cycled long enough in two weeks, though. Your only other option is to leave these items out of your mix and then add them later through top dressings and teas. J
Hey lowryder, To fully understand it, if i get alfalfa pellets, i have to grind them to powder form to mix them with the rest and that's all? Is there anything else needed if i get raw alfalfa? Alfalfa pellets are just alfalfa meal that is pressed into a pellet form. They fall apart easily when wet, so you can put your pellets in a bowl and add a small amount of water and crumble them up. Another problem i have, so far i have only found bags of neem cake of 20 kg, haven't learned the price yet, but i bet its going to be expensive. The same for kelp meal, but i believe i could find some fking bags of kelp at 5 kg and not 20. I don't know about neem cake, i found it only at one store and the rest i have visited don't even know about this stuff. Keep looking. Make sure to ask for help at the stores you go in, sometimes they will have things in the back that aren't on the floor. Some places might be willing to sell you a smaller quantity, you just have to ask. If you can only afford to get one, go with the kelp meal now, and add the neem meal later if you can afford it. Like jerry said, 2 weeks will probably not be enough time for the soil to cycle. You may be able to use it after 3 weeks, but 4 would be better. If you can't get the neem now, go ahead and make your soil without it. When you do get the neem, mix it up with a small amount of your soil and let it sit for several weeks. Then, apply the neem/soil mixture as a top-dressing to your pots. You can also use the neem meal to make a botanical tea and apply it that way.
I like your practical way of thinking guys! Here is the plan: I am going for the basic ingredients of the soil mix+the kelp meal, since i have understood its the most important of the amendments. If i am not mistaken, Jerry has mentioned in a previous post grows of users who used only kelp meal as amendment and they were fine. If i find 5kg bag of kelp, i may go for neem meal whatever the cost since it would suit me. If i find both in bags of 20 kg, then fuck it, only kelp and top dressing+ACTs along the process. And after this, i am gonna order from the site Jerry suggested, since time would not be so pressing as it is now. So, for sure kelp meal+alfalfa meal in the mix, maybe neem meal. Glad for the help so far, i owe you some organic buds if everything goes smoothly! Gonna buy as many igredients as i can and i will notify you on how it goes! Mixing will be proably done in final 5 gal pots
Ok, i found 2kg bags of neem and kelp meal, 3$ for the 2kg neem meal bag, 12$ for the 2kg kelp meal! Going to get some alfalfa pellets from the pet store and ask about the tomato fertilizer . Much more economic than i thought so far!
Let me ask you another question. I have a product called Mineral Magic from GHE, you can see details of this product here: Mineral magic GHE for all growing methods: hydroponics and soil, a rare organic additive with silicate Is it ok to add 1 cup of this per CF of my organic soil mix along with my other amendments for more diversity or the silica in it would be preventive for the good guys? I saw in the description that problems would arise with hydroponics+beneficials, they don't say it would be a problem for soil but i wanna be sure.
Hey lowryder This looks like a good silica supplement (sort of like pro-tekt in powder form). This would not harm microbes in the soil. In fact, at the bottom of the page, they say, Conversely in soil, when mixed in powder form, the large range of elements included in Mineral Magic stimulates the growth of beneficial micro-organisms, and helps create a natural environment for extremely healthy plants. Just make sure you also include rock dust!