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smoking decarboxylated weed

Discussion in 'Weed Edibles' started by twilly123, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. i was wondering, why do people only decarb weed before making edibles, why not all the time? if decarbing weed makes your weed more potent, why not just decarb and then smoke it?
     
  2. because the temperature required to combust weed decarboxylates it for you lol

    it doesnt make it more potent either, it changes the THC atom so its "activated". If it didnt decarb when you smoked it, you wouldnt get very high at all
     
  3. Smoking decarboxylated weed would actually cause a loss of potency in your high, because you decarboxylate it when you smoke like SIRSOG said. Further heating up the already decarboxylated thc could cause it to vaporize.

    ^That little tidbit of information I learned from an amazing cannabis chef BadKittySmiles :wave:
    Edit: Right here -> http://forum.grasscity.com/incredib...tive-glowing-hash-candy-canna-bombs-more.html
    Great thread.
     
  4. #4 PsychedelicSam, Sep 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2012

    I don't believe it. Sort of as a superstitious ritual, I always smoke a joint of my edibles batch and I have never experienced any decrease in potency. I started doing it when I first heard of decarbing and I wasn't too sure of it. I smoked it to make sure it hadn't deteriorated and have just continued the ritual since. You decarb at 220F. The active ingredients of the pot don't come close to vaporizing until the upper 200's and 300's. The heat in decarbing is basically just further drying of the herb to release that carboxyl group. Nothing else. If you have reefer from early last season that has been warehoused in a desert somewhere for the last year, you don't need to decarb because it is already as dry as it will ever be and decarbing it could actually degrade it. That is also why the time to decarb is so different for green weed and older, brown commercial. More time for green, much less for brown. So, if you follow the above line of reasoning, by putting fire to the old dry brown weed, you could be vaporizing off thc.:eek:

    Duh, hello! The point of smoking a joint is to vaporize the thc and inhale it. Isn't it? Am I missing something here? :confused_2:

    BTW, this is what BKS says about decarbing in the first post of her sticky thread. It sounds like I paraphrased her well. I believe you misinterpreted that vaporization reference, but what do I know?

    "Decarbing is a touchy issue for many folks, some know they need it but don't know the methods and practices that cause decarbing, some aren't aware of it at all, others think it's unnecessary and 'know' they get some amount of effect from eating bud on its own, here's why: some herb, if it's old, commercial, over-dry, whatever the reason, for a variety of reasons, some herb is already partially, or even full decarbed. The process begins happening, very gradually, the moment you cut a plant down and begin depriving it of
    water. The older the bud is, and the drier it gets, the more carbon dioxide and water vapor is released, and the closer it is to removing the carboxyl group. It's something that is almost never discussed publicly, but is frequently known in professional kitchens.The fresher the herb, or the more moist the storage conditions, the more necessary and extensive the decarbing process needs to be. Loose hash, separated from plant matter, in general needs a bit less decarbing. With herb, depending on the age, I decarb for a full 20 minutes after the preheat, rather than including that warm up in my 20 minute time
    frame.

    A food dehydrator works just as well, if not better than heat at decarbing, it reduces the risk of damaging your product with excessive heat. It's hard to tell when your decarb is completed when using heat, usually gently browned herb is a good sign but it often means you've taken it a hair too far, and some material in the middle may not be completely decarbed."
     
  5. Hmm, no that's not quite what I was referencing. I might be giving her credit for something that I read somewhere else actually. Been reading a lot about edibles recently (specifically glycerin tincture), and I may have read it on a tincture recipe. Though it didn't say a SIGNIFICANT loss of potency, just a bit of a loss. I wouldn't go smoking baked weed as a habit though.
     

  6. Of course not, why would you? I just do it, as I say, for superstitious reasons, otherwise I wouldn't. However, it is possible to decarb too much and in that case, where thc has been degraded to cbn, you would notice a loss of potency. I believe that I may have run across a reference like that for a glycerin tincture, maybe in relation to ecigs and vaping. But, like you, I've read so much at so many places that it gets a little mixed up. :D
     
  7. The first LONG portion of this post is for those actually curious why it works this way. And there's nothing wrong with needing a little insight, so don't let others make you feel foolish or dim if you needed the details. It's good to be inquisitive. :)


    If you already understand, or don't have the time, then just skip below where I'll sum things up!



    (For folks wondering why I sometimes go into so much detail when these things come up.... to be honest, I just grew tired of writing out the short and decisive bits alone, only to have people question them, and 'wonder why' anyhow! :D


    Forums are filled with diversity, and it's just easier for everyone involved this way.. for those who need quick and simple answers, as well as those who are curious about the mechanics.
    So try not to give me too hard a time, I'm only trying to please as many people as possible, with the time I have! I don't always get a chance or have the time to give every thread a second look. :p )



    ---



    In terms of herb that you intend specifically to smoke or vape, previous heat exposure absolutely degrades your potency due to a cumulative effect of heat exposure, and the heat sensitive chemical changes that exposure brings about.



    Just like over-aged bud will begin to mellow out and lose its headiness, becoming less intense but often more sedative before degrading further, with fresher herb, once off the plant and dried, even mild heat exposure can cause a potentially negative change in the effects provided by your herb.

    Particularly if you're not specifically looking for an increase in CBN and a decrease in THC....


    It's a lot like when herb gets too old, or it's been left in a half-opened baggy for too long, and it begins to lose it's potency and kick.

    You can't easily get that initial 'kick' back... and the same goes for even gently over-heated herb, when it's meant for smoking, rather than eating.



    With decarboxylation, we're removing the carboxyl group 'prematurely' with heat and/or overly-dry conditions. Keep in mind, this is the opposite of what you'd do when storing smoke-herb for longevity!


    When smoked and vaped, your herb undergoes an almost violent chemical change, which includes surpassing temperatures which case a rapid/spontaneous decarboxylation.
    To decarb beforehand, would be considered an unnecessary pre-exposure to heat which results in a cumulative effect.

    In other words that violent exposure, when placed upon herb that has already degraded and/or has been pre-heated, and is now much more chemically fragile, is going to have additionally degenerative effects beyond the effects it can have on properly stored herb.



    That exposure and intensity when smoking or vaping is the same, but you're now applying it to herb which has already undergone a considerable chemical change.



    The main loss first comes when igniting the bowl, and the remainder of the pre-heated herb is effected by the 'cherry'; consider again that the heat exposure is cumulative...



    ---


    As an example, we've taken two nugs from the same jar of herb.


    1) We've decarbed 'sample A', removing the carboxyl group and potentially causing the formation of a miniscule amount of CBN.


    2) 'Sample B' has been left normally dried. It is in the same condition 'sample A' was, before we activated it removing the carboxyl group.


    2) Where 'sample A' has already been exposed to the heat of decarboxylation, when it's later put into a smoking or vaping device and exposed to the SAME amount of heat you'd expose the normally-dried 'sample B' to, the first sample is enduring the same amount of exposure PLUS whatever occurred before, during decarboxylation!


    3) These are two samples with entirely different chemical make-up, even if they came from the same plant!

    It's very similar to the difference between smoking very old and improperly-stored herb, and smoking properly stored and cured herb.


    Ultimately I won't say 'impossible', but it's physically impractical that two samples, with different chemical components, would produce the same chemical output when both exposed to the same heat source.


    CBN formation does not occur very rapidly, but degradation does, it occurs in an instant.

    When exposed to a secondary blast of heat, the weakened sample is going to endure more total damage before it reaches your lungs.



    Just like reducing the temperature of your heat source when combusting (bic lighters, versus wicks and glass wands for instance), can increase the amount of active material that remains undamaged and enters the bloodstream, decreasing the amount of degradation that occurs beforehand, holds the same principle. :)

    (Combustion causes much more degradation than vaporization, and vaporization, more than properly made edibles)




    It's only ever a good idea to increase the temperature of your herb in storage, before smoking, if you're seeking an increase in CBN/A.

    For instance, if you store two jars of the same exact herb, but in two separate rooms that have a 10 degree difference, the jar in the room with the higher temps, in a few weeks time will have markedly more CBN/A than the cooler jar.



    You do NOT want, or need to heat enough to cause decarboxylation, when performing this conversion!


    The formation of CBNA, from THCA, can occur without disrupting the carboxyl group which gives you more time, to create more CBN without degrading your material! The more CBN(A) you create with the carboxyl group intact, the more will be preserved overall, once you get down to using it. ;)






    Anyhow, this is why everyone from your clinic and caregivers, to the testing and potency analysis facilities, will recommend storing your herb in a cool, dark location and to avoid any unnecessary heat exposure... even an afternoon in a hot car can degrade potency when you go to smoke it!



    It's also why over-aged or forgotten herb that has lost most 'all' of its smoke-ability, or produces virtually no potency when smoked, can still make half decent edibles with a gently heated or heatless extraction.


    Again, this is because in terms of heat exposure, degradation is cumulative. The less intense the secondary heat exposure, the more potency you'll preserve. :)




    ---


    Now, the 'short & sweet' bit. :p


    TL;DR.... ( I know a lot of people have a hard time with these longer posts.. the 'why' isn't interesting for everyone, and some people can intuitively understand the why, with just a few words. :p )


    In simple terms... decarboxylation, cannabinoid conversion, and the formation of additional cannabinoids post-harvest... these are just different steps of the natural degradationprocess of cannabis glandular material...


    Yes, even the desirable step of activation, when cooking! :eek:



    We can use things like temperature and air exposure to control both the rate at which our herb degrades, and even the ratio of the resulting chemical composition or cannabinoid conversion, by adjusting the intensity of the heat and its length of exposure, depending on what we intend on doing with it, and our desired outcome!


    You only want to encourage degradation, when it suits your needs and your desired outcome.


    With harsher methods, like smoking and vaping, both of which reach temperatures which surpass instant/spontaneous decarboxylation, you want to encourage as little degradation beforehand, as possible, in order to preserve and deliver the most potency to your blood stream.

    And when eating herb, you actually need to initiate decarboxylation beforehand, because when it is eaten as-is, or even when infused in oil without enough heat, activation won't occur before the time it reaches your blood stream and system.



    (We make carboxyl group intact oils for many patients, containing THCA, CBNA, CBGA etc., without using heat, specifically so people suffering from MS, epilepsy, and sensitive cancer patients can take LARGE doses for intense medicinal benefits, WITHOUT enduring all the 'fun' recreational sensations! )


    It's cumulative, but sometimes you need 'degradation', depending on how your potency needs to enter your system, and when you're seeking specific results... Sometimes you need more, or rapid degradation (decarboxylation for edibles), sometimes less, or more gently and gradual (formation of CBN/A), and sometimes degradation is best avoided whenever possible (preserving high THC/A content until, and during the vape or smoking process).



    Now don't take the length of this post to mean that it's a serious issue!... smoking decarbed herb isn't going to wipe the smile off your face via a HUGE or incredibly noticeable loss of potency. :)
    But it's less likely to have the same kick of the original herb, without that exposure. Just like a bag left in a hot car on a summer afternoon, can also lose a hair of its original potency. It's subtle enough, that if you contained and preserved your terpenes well while decarbing, it may even beat the loosely-bagged, hot car stash. :p



    Hope this helps clear things up! :wave:
     

  8. I say and stand by my statement that there is no difference in the smoking potency only because I've been smoking it when I decarb for a while. Am I the only one? At least there is no detectable difference by a human. Your (general loose reference, not "yours") spectrometers and other fancy gadgets may be able to tell that a molecule has changed here or there, but by human standards it's off the screen. Scientists say they can detect when a soul leaves a body at death by measuring this and that. Can't prove it by me or this point either. I've been smoking my decarbed weed for over a year now whenever I've made edibles and have noticed no difference, except for the times when it's BETTER!

    Yes, I said better. I have done my own extensive research on this subject and know that the ember or "cherry" doesn't always vaporize all the thc. If you've ever studied the ember and ash, you'll see unburned or just scorched weed in there. That's one of the reasons I hear people give for vaping. I don't vape, I smoke and once or twice my decarbed weed was better because when I smoked it, it all burned and it less material used.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the pot is more potent. All I'm saying is that the decarb process dries the reefer and makes it easier for it all to heat. With tight nugs, it can be hard to break up the bud enough without a grinder to give a good burn. You have to keep a flame on it which has it's own degradation issues and still it doesn't all burn. Also, it's possible that the decarbed weed could suffer some degradation with additional heat but immediately out of the oven, there is no humanly detectable difference other than a sometimes enhancement of taste.

    Just to sum up what you said, decarboxylation is naturally a part of the aging process of marijuana. Artificial decarbing, oven, just speeds it up. So, of course, in the process of fully decarbing, the plant is also in the process of degradation and decay. So, by speeding up the decarb, the degradation has been speeded up, too. And as we all know, reefer definitely degrades with age, as anyone who's ever smoked brick weed will tell you. So, extending that, once you've decarbed your weed you have accelerated that decay. But just like time and mother nature with smoke weed, that degradation is dependent on the conditions. (I said that).

    And finally, it's really all about what you want from your marijuana and that sometimes a little degradation can be a good thing.

    Jeez, I feel like I've just written a mid-term in Logic, trying to find a way to agree to your points without conceding mine. Don't know if I succeeded but the exercise was fun:D
     
  9. Well put PS and BKS. I always enjoy reading your posts.
     
  10. Again, awesome post BadKat. Always learn something from your posts. If you have time, I'd love to hear any tips you might have on edibles. Send me a pm or something :wave:
     

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