Sluggish growth and continued cal mag deficiencies

Discussion in 'Hydroponic Growing' started by spaceghostdank, Jul 1, 2017.

  1. Here are some pictures. If more would help say so.
    My conditions right now in both buckets are 780 ppm, ppm starts at 140, 73-77 degrees, fresh nutrient solution, and at least 20ml of cal mag. How much cal mag would you suggest for plants this size and in general what are your thoughts on calmag, I've read you don't need too much in forums, articles, and nutrient schedules but I always seem to see at least faint cal mag deficiency. My temp ranges were 3-4 degrees lower earlier so I assume that contributed to slow growth but i fixed it and it has persisted. The plants are sagging and limp all the time and I can't see why. My only other guess is I need more fans. There is constant intake from an ac keeping things cool for optimal oxygen in root zone. The pump and stones are over powered for these buckets. Can anyone give me some feedback. Also on another not can anyone speak on fungus gnats in soil.

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  2. How are your roots?

    What type of water are you using. For RO, you definitely want to use what they recommend. For a 5 gal bucket, I use 20 mL of CaliMagic. More than that is not a good thing. If you're using some sort of tap water that already has ca/mg, then you don't need as much, if any - depends on what the water's hardness is.

    Fungus gnats... Keep soil covered in a layer of grow stone or hydroton and you might not ever get them. Once you have them, beneficial nematodes will do a good job decimating the larva. Also, diatomaceous earth is like glass dust and rips apart their joints and sticky. Last, sticky traps will get some of the adults but it will give you an indication as to how well your other strategies are working.

    Question - do you have any sort of rock wool or rapid rooter that is under the grow stones and staying wet? It looks like overwatering symptoms, and this issue can cause that. Root issues can also start out looking like these as well.
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  3. How do your roots look? How big are they? Nice and white and smell earthy? Could the water level be to high? Like Fenn mentioned looks like an over water symptoms, have you had a good look for bugs? Sorry just thinking out loud
  4. #4 spaceghostdank, Jul 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
    I diagnosed it since I posted this it's root rot slowing the growth, can someone still give me some info on calmag. The root rot may be causing cal mag deficiency in this case but I've seen it too often I must not be adding enough

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  5. #5 spaceghostdank, Jul 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
    I'm also doing deep water culture so there are no bugs or overwatering. I keep my ph at 5.9 ish and I'm wondering if this causes problems even though I was told that's the optimal ph level.

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  6. No. If you're using 4 mL/Gal - that's max. Giving them more will not fix it. Once root disease sets in, the roots are no longer exchanging nutrients adequately. For some time will they will take up enough water to keep from wilting, but growth comes to a crawl.

    You need to fix the roots first and then think about ca/mg - you can put that on the back burner for now.

    First - prevention. I know, you already have it - but whether you start new plants or fix these you'll need to take 1 of 2 approaches. Sterile rez or beneficial bacteria. I do beneficial bacteria (hydro guard) in my DWC buckets and don't care at all what my rez temps are and it only needs to be added during rez changes. In my RDWC system I keep my rez sterile with UC Roots - a hypochlorous acid disinfectant that needs to be added every 3 days. I also use a chiller with this system. If you are diligent with one approach or the other, root rot will stay away.

    Now - do you want to fix these or start new ones? I've fixed up bad root issues and lost others that were just too far gone. It's going to take some time and resources to get these fixed - like a couple of weeks for roots to start to regrow well and another 2 weeks until they catch back up and resume vegetative growth. Often times the plants are weakened by the root disease and later in life can be more susceptible to pests, PM - or recurring root disease. Sometimes it keeps coming back. Starting again takes about the same amount of time and you're left with much more vigorous and hearty plants.

    If you DO want to fix them you need to determine what the cause was. Rapid rooters or rock wool - used in DWC it's often the source of the rot if it's too low in the netpot causing it to stay damp and harbor pathogens. If so, once they're in there, it's probably not going to clear.

    Treatment would involve cutting all infected roots, spraying them roots with a kitchen faucet to rinse off as much dead material as possible, running them in ONLY RO water, a chlorine disinfectant like UC Roots (not H2O2 - it dissipates too quickly), root stimulator like Rhizotonic and enzyme like Cannazyme to break down dead matter. You run that for 1 week. The plants will start to yellow as they canniballize to make new roots. There are no roots to get nutes to be able to build roots with, so it uses up it's reserves. After a week, if new roots are showing, introduce 1/4 nutes and normal strength ca/mg. Give this another week and you should see new green growth. Bump up to 1/2 strength...

    It boils down to a comparison of cost of rehab vs clean slate...
  7. Your pH is perfect. DWC can get all sorts of bugs including root aphids. Always look out for them. Overwatering symptoms can show in DWC when there isn't enough O2 to the roots. If your air pump goes out, your plants will get all droopy, but not flopped like under watering. Root issues cause this too. Rooting plugs when they stay too wet can cause a damping off of the stem at the root crown - which also looks like overwatering.
  8. What lights are you using? it doesn't look very bright in there. Like Fennario Mike said what type of water are you using? I use 40-45 ML of cal/mag per 10 gallons.
  9. Yep, that's exactly the right ratio
  10. I use 2 mars hydro, but they were off when I took those pictures. I added h202 a few times the past few days to slow the rot, I'll get hydroguard soon and add that. Hopefully hydroguard fixes it, I looked up reviews and saw an instance of root rot overpowering the hydroguard. My particular case doesn't seem that bad, just wondering how often that happens.
  11. Root rot is stubbornly persistent. Do you have rock wool cubes under the grow stones?
  12. Opps Posted by mistake. Cant seem to delete.
  13. In those two plants no there isn't a rock wool cube but I usually use them. Can the root start on the cube or cling onto the cube or something?

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  14. If rockwool or rapid rooter cubes sit too low in the netpot then they don't drain well enough and not enough O2 gets to the roots inside. That's where rot starts - anywhere where there's not enough O2.

    So if you do use them, have them up out of the grow stones enough that they are above the wet line and can drain.

    I grow my clones and seedlings out with roots only before transplanting into the netpot. I just had too many issues trying to use anything absorbent in the netpot.
  15. I usually have the cube at the top of the pot so the top of the cube is level with the lid. The water is usually right at the bottom of the net or a little below so the cube is dry almost, if not , all the time. Also does anyone know how quickly hydrogaurd starts working and if it can kill root rot that already started/ is lingering.

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  16. Hydroguard isn't a root rot treatment. When used from the start, it's bacteria can produce an environment that pyrethrum doesn't do so well in. But conversely, a pyrethrum bloom creates an environment that the Hydroguard doesn't like so much. You would first need to cut away all dead and dying material. Then it MIGHT have a chance - but it's more of a prevention than a treatment. Even as such, root rot can still take hold even with Hydroguard. From my unfortunately considerable experience with root rot - to have any chance of recovery from systemic root rot - it needs cutting out, considerable fresh water rinsing, chlorine disinfection with UC Roots or Rez Clear, then a week of straight RO water with a root stimulator and enzymes only. This cleans out all dead/dying material, encourages new growth and leaves nothing dead that the pyrethrum can cling on to.

    H2O2 - especially in an environment rich in microbes and dead material - reacts with it all and dissipates into H2O and O2 pretty much within minutes - leaving no residual disinfectant level.

    Oh, and obviously, Hydroguard can't be used in conjunction with ANY disinfectant.

    More times than not it's more economical to start over - sorry to say.
  17. But to answer the question, Hydroguard works immediately, but it doesn't do what you might think. It creates a beneficial relationship between the roots and the nutrients and ALSO helps keep pathogens from gaining a foothold. The benefit to the plant is over time. When inoculated into a fresh rez, the bacteria replicate within the first day or so and develop a natural population. When trying to add it to an infected rez, the pathogens could inhibit it from developing a healthy population.
  18. Thanks for the info that helps a lot. It was hard to do but I ripped the plants out. The whole root system was brownish but it was really the worst on the stem I probably should have lowered the water like you suggested and like I normally do. They were probably doomed as soon as it developed though should have scraped them then.

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  19. Sorry - that really sucks. But it sucks more to keep struggling, paying for more resources, to lose them anyhow, It's painful though, I do know.
  20. No worries man .You got this the next run!☻

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