SIP and Organics - PH Issue with roots in reservoir

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by blackwo1f, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. Hey all. I don't really like to throw up random posts like this, but life has been keeping me extremely busy and I'd like to get some quick opinions on this issue.
     
     
     
    I recently converted to a smart pot SIP set up in organic soil. I found that the bottom-watering was working excellently, but have recently noticed some of the girls looking limey and stretchy on the new growth. From experience, I can say that the only clear answer to this is my ph of the water in the reservoir. It seems to be affecting the new growth because of these newer roots growing through the pots and down into the res.
     
     
     
    Has anyone else encountered this issue? PH should not be an issue with organics, but I feel that this half organic, half hydro set up may require some extra attention. The girls I have in smarties but NOT on the reservoirs are much darker green than the SIP ones.
     
     
     
     
    OR..... is this just overwatering??? 
     
     
    What should my PH be in my reservoirs for this sort of organic smart SIP set up?
     
     
    Any help would be greatly appreciated... thank you in advance. Love this place  :smoke:

     
  2. Post some pic's if you can. Reservoir pots and non'.

    It must be "overwatering". Do you keep you reservoir "topped off" all the time, with an (~1") air gap between the top water level and the bottom of the pot?

    I run with well water that has a pH of 8.1. I don't have issues. Roots growing in the res' and all. Not so much this go around, as I'm letting the res' and pots dry out a little bit more before filling the res'. I fill them when the bottom of the smart pots feel moist/damp, but not wet.
     
  3.  
     
     
    Will take some photos when I do some work in the room in a bit.
     
     
    I do not keep them topped off all the time. One issue is that I have 4 reservoirs that are connected with tubing. I will probably have to undo this, because although the convenience factor in watering is definitely there, I believe it's causing more problems than easing them up. The water level equalizes between the 4 reservoirs because of the tubing, which is not what I want because 1 res has 3 huge flowering plants whereas the others have smaller vegging plants. So the watering schedule is not right for the little plants.
     
     
    If this is the case, then you're right about overwatering. 
     
     
    However, I am using city water, not well water. The ph is 8-8.5. I have always had issues with the water, so that's the reason I can't be certain than my issue isn't the water itself, not just OVERwatering. 
     
  4. 1. White Widow. Looking lanky and lime green and clawed. Was the healthiest one last week.
     
    IMG_3117.JPG
     
     
    2. Bubba. Also a bit limey and slightly clawed.
     
    IMG_3119.JPG
     
     
    3. Hawaiian Snow. Looks good to me. Not SIP'ing at the moment.
     
    IMG_3115.JPG
     
     
    4. WW roots going into res. Yes, the res is dry but the pots are damp nearly to the top on some.
     
    IMG_3118.JPG
     
  5. #5 waktoo, Dec 28, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
    You use the same water for the top watered pots, right?  With no problems there?  Then it's not the quality of your water.
     
    I would not describe what you are referring to as "clawed" as such.  More like "drooping", which is either from overwatering or underwatering.  We know it's not the later....
     
    I think you'd see better results if each plant had its own reservoir, and you filled each one individually.  That way each plant is able to take water as it needs it, and they're all not subject to having the same moisture levels forced upon them.
     
    The quick fix would be to remove the affected plants from their reservoirs, and top water them for a while.  See if things improve.
     
    What soil are you using, what lighting, and how close are your lights to the plant tops?
     
  6.  
     
    Yeah I guess you're right! The Hawaiian Snow pictured above was given water that I didn't even dechlorinate.. so it's got to be too much water for the smaller ones.
     
     
    Thank you very much for the help... do you think I should still bring down the ph of my water a bit for when I refill the res's? 
     
  7.  
    I edited my last post.  Please reread and reply. 
     
  8. #8 blackwo1f, Dec 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2013
     
     
    I'm using an organic mixture I made, Pro-mix, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, EWC, glacial rock dust, neem meal, etc... Didn't have problems until it started getting too soggy from SIP.
     
    I'm using 600w HPS for veg, 1000w for flower. The plants pictured are varying in height, but the WW is about a foot away from the light. However I am running an enclosed, air-cooled tube system for the lights so temps are low (77F).
     
     
     
    EDIT: also, there are so many roots coming out the bottoms that I really shouldn't remove them from the res. I removed some of them a few weeks ago and I already felt uncomfortable even lifting them from the hydroton. At this point the roots are probably a couple inches down in there at least. 
     
  9. Did you add any extra perlite to your mix, or did you rely on what was contained in the Pro-mix for aeration?
     
  10.  
    No added perlite, although this is something I wanted to do this round on the soil mix. Maybe even add the hydroton rocks...
     
    Do you think my mix could be a little heavy and hardened by the excess water?
     
  11. #11 waktoo, Dec 28, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
    I think that most of us that utilize the smart pot SIP add extra perlite. I know I do. You'd think that it wouldn't be needed for sub irrigated planters (no compaction from top watering), but it is. The soil stays more moist with SIP's. That aeration factor is important so that soils do not become water logged or compacted. Get some more in next round. I would not use hydroton. It is much larger than perlite (depending on the grade of perlite that you get). The way I see it, you're just taking up valuable soil space that could hold nutrients, rather than inert media. Of course the same could be said for the perlite...  :confused_2: 

    I wouldn't worry about damaging the roots that have grown out of the bottom of the pot and into the reservoir medium. I pull mine up ALL the time. It will not stress the plant. There's plenty of healthy roots inside the pot. Think about it... root pruning is what cloth pots do. The only reason they're growing out of the bottom is because there's plenty of moisture available (maybe too much), little open air, and NO light. Unlike the sides of the pot....
     
    So here's what I would do.  Either take the pots out of the reservoirs and top water until they're finished, OR start to let the reservoir (individuals) dry out way more than you have been in between fillings.  Either way, make sure that the pot itself is drying out some in between waterings.  I like to tip the pot up on its bottom edge (for top watering) to feel how light it is.  A pot ready for water will really feel light when you do this.  A whole plant, even when flowering and close to harvest, will only weigh a few pounds tops (within reason, of course, we're not talking monsters here!).  When you compare this to the weight of a pot that has just been watered with, say 2 gallons of water (at 8# per gallon), the difference in weight is quite significant.  Get what I'm sayin'? 
     
  12.  
     
    THANK YOU!! I really needed to first-hand advice from someone running a SIP setup. I have been lurking in the darkness reading through SIP threads but you just helped out with lots of things I have been worried about but haven't found answers to yet.
     
     
    I think I'm going to do some top watering for a while. Some are pretty dry whereas others are heavy as hell, so I think that I need to level out my hydroton better in the res's so that the water level is even when I do bottom water again.
     
     
    I will definitely be adding more perlite to my new soil mix. I can see what you're saying about the soil staying moist longer with the SIP.
     
     
    Again.. thank you so much!!! 
     
  13. No problem.  Glad to help.
     
    Post up in a week or so (or whenever!) with a progress report, if you would.
     
    Happy New Year!   :D  
     
  14.  
     
    Happy New Year (eve) to you, too! Hope you have a good night tonight.
     
     
    I'm back at a point where I'm again thinking that I just CANNOT feed my girls the city water from the hose/tap. Even in my new batch of soil that has not been shot by previous low ph issues, I'm seeing new growth slow/stop and turn lime green to white since TOP WATERING with dechlorinated tap water. So here I am again, stuck. Everyone on here mixing their own organic soils has told me that water shouldn't be an issue in our soil. 
     
     
    So why is it that the only times my plants truly thrive are when I buy distilled/mineral water from the store or use R/O water. My R/O system is contaminated right now, so that's not an option. I have too many thirsty girls to buy water. What can I do :( how can I treat my tap water to make it acceptable for my organic soil?
     
  15. [quote name="blackwo1f" post="19259114" timestamp="1388512185"]Happy New Year (eve) to you, too! Hope you have a good night tonight.I'm back at a point where I'm again thinking that I just CANNOT feed my girls the city water from the hose/tap. Even in my new batch of soil that has not been shot by previous low ph issues, I'm seeing new growth slow/stop and turn lime green to white since TOP WATERING with dechlorinated tap water. So here I am again, stuck. Everyone on here mixing their own organic soils has told me that water shouldn't be an issue in our soil. So why is it that the only times my plants truly thrive are when I buy distilled/mineral water from the store or use R/O water. My R/O system is contaminated right now, so that's not an option. I have too many thirsty girls to buy water. What can I do :( how can I treat my tap water to make it acceptable for my organic soil?[/quote]Get an air pump and air stone and bubble you're water for 24 hr before use. I usually fill a 32gal Rubbermaid garbage can. Or they make these carbon filters that attach to your garden hose and they filter out chlorine.
     
  16.  
    That's exactly what I've been doing and it doesn't seem to help except if I make it into a full on ACT.
     
     
    I will look into these hose filters you're talking about.
     
  17. So your top watered (with tap) plants are now having the same problems that your SIP plants were having?
     
    Have you seen a report on your municipal tap water?  Do you know exactly what's in it, and if it contains chloramine, as well as chlorine?
     
    These things still should not matter in well built organic soil.  What, specifically, was the humus source (brand of compost/EWC) in your soil mix?  And did you use 25-33% humus in your mix?
     
    Although I don't think you need them, here's an excellent source for water filters.  They have filters that will remove chloramine/chlorine.  They also have the kind that you can hook up to a hose spigot, if that's what you're looking for.
     
    http://www.friendsofwater.com/
     
  18.  
     
    I've checked out the water report and both chlorine and chloramine are present.
     
     
    My humus source is Worm Gold EWC, it's the only stuff that is available near me and do not have to order online. However, I do not know much about the brand and would like to find a better source for humus. I did not use quite as much as I should have, at least not 30%.
     
     
    My clones that I've been top-watering (in organic soil) also have essentially stopped growth. At this point, I can say that the last time I was seeing normal growth rate was when I was using about 60% R/O water 40% hose water mixed. But as stated, R/O is out of commission. 
     
  19. #19 waktoo, Dec 31, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
    How long did you cycle your soil, and did you use any kind of microbial inoculant in your soil mix?
     
    How do you determine when to water, and are you experiencing any "deficiencies", burning, or discoloration towards the bottom of the plants?
     
    How long have you been growing?
     
  20. #20 blackwo1f, Dec 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2013
     
    It 'cooked' for about 5 weeks. All seemed great until my water filter (I was using D/I at the time, stupidly) became exhausted and put out GNARLY low ph water. It seemed to suck the life out of the soil.
     
     
    I water when the pots feel light. I did not use any microbial inoculant in my mix.
     
     
    I can post photos of different stages, but this is as best as I can describe it:
     
     
    The fan leaves, starting from the BOTTOM of the plant at the stalk, progressing up and outward toward the buds, shrivel and die. Even when they still have green to them, they turn dark, almost brownish, and claw under and are so brittle/crispy that they turn to dust. It seems that the plants are cannibalizing themselves in order to finish their flowering cycle. The issue doesn't look like a single deficiency because of how aggressively the leaves died.
     
     
    I enter plants from veg to flower in sets of 3. So, the first set I put in had recovered less from the low ph damage, and shed leaves to the point where there are zero fan leaves left and now the flower leaves are even yellowing.
     
     
    The next 3 I entered into flower are nice and dark green and the flowers look healthy, however I am beginning to see the same issue: they are shedding all of their fan leaves to the point where there are none sticking out from any main stems. Yet, the growth around the buds looks healthy and dark green.
     
     
    This is my fourth grow, first organic. As I said, it was looking INCREDIBLE when I was still using Sparklett's water from the store. I feel like the water here has slowly but surely killed the soil.
     

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