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Discussion in 'Politics' started by Kylesa, May 21, 2010.

  1. To everyone that says the government is a necessary evil, I have one single question.

    On average, what direct contact does any individual have with the state?

    You drive on their roads, but that isn't direct contact. If you're a registered voter and have signed your life away to Selective Service, you may vote every 2 or 4 years and occasionally have jury duty. Once in a while you may get a driving ticket, or something worse. You have almost zero direct contact with the state on a daily basis. What does that mean? You, as an individual, make your own decisions. The state doesn't matter.

    To the average individual, what would be difference if the roads were owned privately? You would have more direct contact with the individual or organization which owned and operated the roadways. What would be the difference if security was a private industry? You would have more direct contact with the individual or organization which owned and operated the security industry.

    Being governed by an organization as large as our government is a lot like being a mushroom. They feed you shit and keep you in the dark. The state is only a monopoly of force. They are the only ones "legally" allowed to implement rules. Why is that? If the government is nothing more than a group of people, what makes it any fucking different than any other group of people? The difference is that you choose the other people while the government forces you to participate. Voluntarism is key.

    Government has been, is, and will forever be evil.

    Even better, give me an example of any official government which has done more good than harm. Every single example of government has done nothing but appease the masses long enough to unfold these horrid plans of war and destruction. Any example of some government doing otherwise would be greatly appreciated.

    If your idea of "good" includes appeasing the masses at all costs, then I don't even have a desire to talk to you. Obviously the group is more important than the individual (in your eyes) even though the group is comprised of and functions solely on the individuals which it consists of.
  2. but, why?
  3. Because if your end goal is simply cash, there's no room for ethics.

  4. I vote at least 2 times a year. Every March and every November. If there's a primary, then it's 3 times a year.

    I frequently participate in town hall meetings, and every year I attend our Town Meeting Day.

    I've been involved with many local/state petitions which have made to the ballot.

    I've met and spoken with both of our state senators, and countless local politicians.

    I've served on a board of directors for a non-profit organization which had direct, frequent contact with our local select board.


    If someone doesn't have direct contact with their government, then frankly, that's their own damn fault for not making the effort.

    I've said a million times, that our government is not a single entity that we have no control over. Our government is a reflection of our society.
  5. It's more than a reflection, it influences society which then influences everything else which then eventually comes back to influence government and so on. But yeah, pretty much.
  6. I guess you didn't notice that I included the word average in there. I also wish you responded to more than just part of the post.

    Alright, so you vote. A lot.

    Does this stop you from making your own decisions? On a daily basis is someone directly telling you how to live your life?

    No. You're a responsible person (I'm assuming) that knows the difference between right and wrong. YOU make your own decisions, not the government, so why do we all continue to pretend otherwise? Like the government actually has some control?
  7. You're telling me that killing 100,000 innocent people (civilians) in Iraq is a reflection of our society? You're telling me that we have been influencing our government even though we have been crying to be removed from these wars for years with an overwhelming majority (At least we were until Obama was elected at which point everyone which was hating on Bush for these wars started making excuses for Obama to continue them. Now it is like they aren't even existent.)? Was it the people that wanted to bailout all of the government fuck buddies on Wall Street? Or were those bills passed nearly unanimously against the will of the people? I guess that marijuana prohibition would have happened without all of those government lies and propaganda, simply by the will of the people. That makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:.

    Quit deluding yourself. Don't even try to justify your statement. The government is not a reflection of the society it governs. It is its own entity and you have zero control over it.

    Give me one example of a government which has done more good than harm. One example... Every government throughout history is known for the horrendous acts of evil it engages in, I wonder why that is?

  9. So now we're supposed to roll over on our backs whenever the government tries to control its people? :rolleyes: Golly gee whizz it was such a stupid idea to resist the oppression of the federal government! I shouldn't have done that, after all, that would be *illegal* and I wouldn't want that kind of a title branded on my actions! I want to be a hard-working obedient sla-- err, citizen, because I know those actions would please the federal government, and they sure do like it when people are less intelligent than domesticated pets.

    "Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
    -Abraham Lincoln

    When the federal government has the ability to control the workings of its citizens personal lives then its power is unlimited. Why should the government have a say in what citizens do, if it does not affect the inter/intrastate black/white markets? If someone is growing a plant for his/her own personal use, and the federal government has the self-entitled authority to come and arrest them, then where do you think their power is limited?
  10. I know you'd think people on a Marijuana forum wouldn't be pro-tyranny.

  11. Which is it, Buddy... this ^^?

    Or this:

    You don't remember people screaming and picketing to go turn the middle east into a parking lot after 9/11? You don't remember the huge approval ratings that GW had when he invaded Iraq?

    It's amazing how quickly people forget history.
  12. hypothetical question:

    if a republican were in office right now, and someone made this thread.. would the same people have the same replies?
  13. You give the government control by allowing it to continue to have control when in reality you make your own decisions.

    You still aren't answering my questions... When has a government ever done something overwhelmingly good for the people? Every example of government throughout history is a huge failure that only ends up destroying and raping the people which it consists of. ALWAYS.

    The fact that I've asked this question three times now and still haven't gotten a response is testament enough to the answer of this question. Never has any government done any amount of overwhelming good. Government throughout history is known for death and destruction, war and chaos, yet we are taught (by the government mandated curriculum) that anarchy, the absence of government, means chaos.

    People do not have the right to control other people, period. Not through taxes, not through public programs, not even through the defense of a nation. Control over others is evil and always ends in destruction. Always. From every tyrant to every democracy to every church that has ever had control of the masses, war and destruction are the only result.

    PLEASE show me something that tells me otherwise.
  14. itt: conflation of "government" with "the US Federal Government"

    Everything is interconnected. Where did the government come from? Obviously, it started out as an idea, which is cool, but as it was executed it ran into problems along the way and adjusted slightly. Government has always been in the social engineering business whether it knew it or not (as are economic systems and cultures, that's just how things work), so what's interesting is how the government has changed over the years. Sure, of course there are examples of persons or parts of the government that work for themselves against public interest. But that's not because of the state, it's humans. We exploit things. So it goes in any system in which humans are involved, because humans can learn and change over time, but dogmatic systems really can't.

    Humans are known for their horrendous acts of evil. Not everything a government does is necessarily evil. I'm a big fan of the practical stuff: making sure no one puts poison in foodstuffs or medicine (whoops!), enforcing laws against violence and coercion (this last word is obviously up for debate), providing basic services. Not so much the murder and conspiracy and intrigue.

    I don't think so. Obviously people are interested in their own survival, but it's important to distinguish between self-interest and 'greedy'. Few teachers are drawn to the teaching profession for the lavish lifestyle, more often it's because they either enjoy the idea of educating students, or because they like dealing with kids, whatever. That falls into interest, not greed. The same goes with government. Some people are greedy, and some are simply interested in helping public interest. The problem to me is ensuring you keep out the fuckheads who ruin everything by exploiting their positions.

  15. Ok I agree with you. I don't see where were disagreeing here? People who are greedy are INTERESTED in making lots of money.

    Greed is subjective anyway. People have different values. You do realize that right?
  16. Um, if you're breaking the law, it is your RIGHT as a human being to a fair trial in a court of law. We live in a Republic. A Republic, by definition, means a country of LAWS and EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. Sure, they broke the law, but does that mean they should be subversively murdered because of it?

    Sorry but, this is a pretty weak defense.

    I asked for people to give me an example of a 'good' Government in history. It's impossible, because it doesn't exist. That is the paradox of Government. They WILL do good things, but the only reason they do 'good' things is so that they don't get over-thrown. Governments don't care about solving every little issue, because they have no incentive to. As long as you keep people fat and happy, and are able to keep the wool pulled over their eyes, they can get away with mostly anything.

    The reason most people are opposed to anarchy is because they're not educated. They think we *need* Government. We don't. They think that by getting their guy in office everything will be fixed. It has never, in the history of man, worked out like that. The simple fact is, there are tens of millions of people who work for the Government. Only 536 of those tens of millions are elected. In 2012, when Obama leaves office, (or gets re-elected) you have the same people working in the CIA, the FBI, the IRS, etc., before Obama was in office. The whole system of 'representatives' and 'leaders' is an illusion.

    I disagree. Government is inherently evil because it is not accountable, and it will only provide enough happiness so that they are not overthrown. Their goal is to maintain equilibrium--but the thing is, they're ABLE to maintain more than just equilibrium. They are able to do much more, but there's simply no incentive for them.

    This is one of the reasons why I'm a free market guy. In a market, if there's demand for something, it will be met with supply. It is the spontaneous self-organization that makes the market great. People arise to solve a problem or fill a niche not because some guy in a suit tells them to, but because it is in their own-self interest to do so. If we had a stateless society, private companies would continue the duties the Government has, and they would undoubtedly do it a thousand times better. Why? Incentive. People RESPOND to incentives. Governments create an atmosphere of disincentive. Not just for themselves, but the rest of society.

    For example. A Government could say, I'll tax you at .05% of your income, and we'll give the money to a charity of your chosing. By doing this, the Government has removed your individual incentive to donate money to charity, and put it on themselves. You no longer have an emotional investment to donate to charity, because it's done for you. You then become apathetic, because it's done for you.

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