A phenotype of a plant is the visual characteristics, as opposed to the genotype with include the hidden or recessive ones.
Vox Continental Sometime check out what the grow store kids have done with other legitimate scientific terms - Amino acids, Enzymes or my favorite: plant hormones. PGRs? Auxins? It don't matter - the catch-phrase is what is important here. Screw the details. Fun times in River City LD Official Gunk Hater
Vox, "pheno" is shorthand for "phenotype." Wikipedia has a good article on it. In the cannabis context, consider that almost every seed available to you or me is a hybrid, usually a hybrid of many many hybrids. COnsider also that very few if any breeders, at least these days, are going to take the time and make the significant (huge) effort necessary to breed out most of the genetic diversity that you get from crossing and recrossing multiple generations of hybrids. The result is that the seeds we get have the same strain name, but there is likely to be a lot of genetic diversity within that strain. If you haven't had any genetics in biology class or whatever, google "recessive trait" or "dominance in genetics" to get a taste of what this is about. So IMO when people here talk about a "pheno" they are referring to the way a particular collection of genes gets expressed in an actual plant, given that the strain involved probably has a lot of genetic diversity within it. And yes like all jargon, maybe especially reefer jargon, it has taken on a life of its own. But there is a real phenomenon--he he a real pheno --behind the term. I think LD could tell some stories on this as it happened in the breeding of the strain he runs, as he was actually involved, and I wish he would....
Vox Take Marapa's post here, copy it, paste it into a text document and keep it on your desktop for easy access. I was going to try and answer your question more fully but it would not have been nearly as polite as his. I have as much use for commercial seed breeders as I do for politicians. You can tell they're lying because their lips are moving or the keyboard is humming. Not unexpected really. They've reinvented each and every science associated with growing plants - Chemistry, Biology, Botany, Soil Biology and especially Genetics. Big on buzz-words and really, really short on facts much less reality. Even an IBL arrives in your hands a hybrid of sorts. The only way to truly mono-culture is to use plant tissue to recreate another plant - 'cloning' for example. In a group of Thai seeds straight off stick would show a huge diversity. Some of that could be attributed to seeds from one plant grown in Valley A for 1,000 years and you would have seeds in that same package/load from Valley B thru Valley Z and beyond. So when someone tells me that this or strain (mongrel) is a 'Thai' crossed with this or that - it means absolutely nothing other than the fact that the seed may have come from genetics that originated in what we now call Thailand. There is no 'Thai Strain' or 'Kerala' or anything else. They're selling you a myth. In one run to find some breeding stock for a large grow in South Orange County ("Goin' Thai High in The Ortegas"), I planted over 400 seeds that had been collected from a specific load of Thai sticks. Even within that limited run with seeds from the same 'bundle' the diversity was wide and deep. If you want to understand genetics as it's taught and studied for the past 120 years and you still want the cannabis angle then I would strongly recommend Robert Clarke's book, Marijuana Botany. This was his graduate thesis at the University of California meaning that his work had to be reviewed by real academics and not the guy pushing $20.00 seeds over at The Bay. Clarke's explanation of Mendelian Genetics as it relates specifically to cannabis is easy to understand but still technically accurate. At least with Clarke's book you have a fighting change. Going through Botany and Chemistry in the cannabis growing paradigm was brutal enough. By the time I hit Soil Biology at Oregon State it was clear that someone was talking gibberish and I kinda figured out that it probably wasn't Gregory Mendel. YMMV LD
Thanks guys, I know what a phenotype is, I'm just saying that its still open to interpretation of the breeder, each season is different (In that recessive genes can start showing up and change your whole idea of what your "pheno" was) and as LD said these commerical breeders are people simply making money and only benefit from lying about their product. Selling hermie seeds and giving us the incorrect harvest times (Which are also open to interpretation of the grower). Also anyone can rebrand a strain name. People could buy bud from a dealer (or even a dispensary) and claim that it is trainwreck when its really OG kush or something, then they plant the seed and cross breed among their flock, thinking they just bred a trainwreck with something else, coming up with a new strain whose real biological parents are not even given any credit because bob on the street corner gave you the wrong strain name so you can over pay for your weed etc etc. Many things about true plant botany are changed in the weed growing world as well, like pistils, and as LD said auxins etc. As well as what a hermie is, as opposed to a female which pops nanners later in its life cycle.
All true, and the clear implication for me, and I think BP and LD and many others on here, is that you take all the breeder info and online info about a given strain with a few grains of salt and a bong hit or two, you grow out the seeds or the clones available to you until you find ones you like, meaning particular plants, which you clone and keep and adore forever. And if you are cash cropping then you have no escape from playing the game at least to the extent of naming the plant you grew, preferably some name that helps it sell and builds a positive association in the mind of your buyer (aka "marketing"). But if you are outside that market and just in it for the love of the plant or just dealing with your personal stash you may as well call them Peggy Sue, Barbara Allen, Janis Joplin or Mary Jane....
Vox, >>and only benefit from lying about their product A little strong wouldn't you think? Reputations are hard won and easily lost. The unaware will always be duped, but to suggest the business model for the industry is based on lies is too much. I do a Google search before I will send my money off to get some seeds. If you do you will find people track this kind of stuff, so only the incautious consumer will get hooked up with shysters. Maybe if people stopped obsessing about 'this year's model' or finding 'the next big thing' they could get some stable genetics. My experience First Purchase Crystal Paradise - consistent Ambrosia - multiple phonemes (recent cross, this is where I figured it out) Second Purchase Chemo consistent (killed them all trying to clone :*() Third Purchase Chemo consistent Atomic Shiva - consistent Romulan - consistent Fourth purchase God Bud (DOA) - Seed seller issue in my opinion, not seed maker Fifth Purchase God Bud - consistent Fifth Purchase Northern Lights #5 - multiple phonemes. Timewarp - consistent Sixth purchase Trainwreck - consistent Timewarp - consistent 12 times I have gone to the well. Only once since I figured out not to buy new strains have I been disappointed. That breeder had provided a consistent Atomic Shiva, so even within the breeder it was not all bad. So there is some truth to what you say, but to claim it is all crap is not right. The chances of us each developing or knowing someone who can develop a strain like my Chemo is pretty well zero. And since it is illegal, if I did develop one, I sure as hell wouldn't share it. Breeders and banks perform an invaluable service. As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't think so is not looking at the broader picture. Maybe 'they' don't need them, or 'they' can do better, but there are lots who do and benefit greatly from their existence. Like me for instance. Sterces.
I suppose I just dont like brand names of any kind, even in the black market we all take part in. I feel like the strains that are amazing today will be dirt next year. Its constantly changing. Also all the hype behind these brand names leads some growers to grow only one kind of bud. For example, I believe its pineapple kush, I saw somewhere this "farm" growing heaps of this stuff, and they have it protected as their brand name, though recently all they have been dealing with is mites. Out the ass mites, like everywhere, they need vaccums to deal with it. This strain is being grown over and over again and the mites have picked the lock of their defense and the growers are paying for it. If they had innovated, and selectively bred their way out of it they would be fine. Yes there are innovative and incredible growers that have changed the marijuana plant in the last century as much as technology has changed. The point still stands though, great strains can be rebranded, phenos are open to interpretation of the grower and the unbelieveable amount of variation that takes place during the grow process makes this "science" more of an art.. plus I could easily buy a 20 dollar industrial hemp seed as opposed to God Bud and wouldn't know the difference until flowering.. Sorry for jacking your thread marapa!
[quote name='"LumperDawgz2"'] Vox Take Marapa's post here, copy it, paste it into a text document and keep it on your desktop for easy access. I was going to try and answer your question more fully but it would not have been nearly as polite as his. I have as much use for commercial seed breeders as I do for politicians. You can tell they're lying because their lips are moving or the keyboard is humming. Not unexpected really. They've reinvented each and every science associated with growing plants - Chemistry, Biology, Botany, Soil Biology and especially Genetics. Big on buzz-words and really, really short on facts much less reality. Even an IBL arrives in your hands a hybrid of sorts. The only way to truly mono-culture is to use plant tissue to recreate another plant - 'cloning' for example. In a group of Thai seeds straight off stick would show a huge diversity. Some of that could be attributed to seeds from one plant grown in Valley A for 1,000 years and you would have seeds in that same package/load from Valley B thru Valley Z and beyond. So when someone tells me that this or strain (mongrel) is a 'Thai' crossed with this or that - it means absolutely nothing other than the fact that the seed may have come from genetics that originated in what we now call Thailand. There is no 'Thai Strain' or 'Kerala' or anything else. They're selling you a myth. In one run to find some breeding stock for a large grow in South Orange County ("Goin' Thai High in The Ortegas"), I planted over 400 seeds that had been collected from a specific load of Thai sticks. Even within that limited run with seeds from the same 'bundle' the diversity was wide and deep. If you want to understand genetics as it's taught and studied for the past 120 years and you still want the cannabis angle then I would strongly recommend Robert Clarke's book, Marijuana Botany. This was his graduate thesis at the University of California meaning that his work had to be reviewed by real academics and not the guy pushing $20.00 seeds over at The Bay. Clarke's explanation of Mendelian Genetics as it relates specifically to cannabis is easy to understand but still technically accurate. At least with Clarke's book you have a fighting change. Going through Botany and Chemistry in the cannabis growing paradigm was brutal enough. By the time I hit Soil Biology at Oregon State it was clear that someone was talking gibberish and I kinda figured out that it probably wasn't Gregory Mendel. YMMV LD[/quote] Thank goodness for you LD. For a while i thought i was the only one that thought that way lol.
Not a problem, VC...I think you and Sterces actually worked around to the correct middle ground on this issue. I mean it's not like strain branding is totally random, at least for the good breeders, and it's not like hybridized hybrids that aren't fully stabilized are random. It's a numbers issue, a probability thing, and if people find strains and phenos within strains that yield consistent enough results for them, great. Besides I'm too blissed out on grinder kief to care about thread jacking Also I'm a believer enough in strain brands to say that this Cheese does seem cheesy to me, which is a good thing, I love cheese, and the last time I grew this out I screwed it up, so didn't know what to think of my Cheese Mum. So now I know. I like my Cheese Mum.. She gives me presents like this which'll be my last bud porn for awhile...I am closing out this run...but not this thread, as I've changed my mind about the next run. It starts right away, on the next page. This run was happy and calm after a seed disaster, I sent in the clones, and they performed really well. I was able to keep the environment and the watering much more dialed in than ever before, and the buds reflect that, sin duda. So...forward, into the fog
I had planned to pop some seeds on New Year's Day to start the next grow, my sixth. But Santa brought me some surprise genetics, in the form of cuts of Sour Diesel, Alien Dog and Kandy Kush. I've cloned them and in addition to the mothers-in-waiting, I have these nice little clones now that I haven't run before. So...the seeds will just have to wait a couple months. Let's grow out the alien clones....
Talk about a marketing scheme...... I suppose you guys have seen the auction at another site where an Aliendog cross brought $4001 for 15 regualar seeds..........last night. 4 packs of em...lol Those Alien genetics are so rare and so limited with so much hype people actually pay that for it. omg You gotta love this LD. lol People are asking if they can get clones for 5k. Now thats some damn good marketing. $4001 for a roll of the dice...whoooeee Is that bravery or stupidity?
lol Didn't know you had posted that about growing out the Aliendogs when I posted. Just to be clear, I'm not knocking the Aliendog(I heard you had a pretty good cut) but its another one of those hybrid to hybrid to hybrid type crosses that no one knows the results of yet and they're paying unheard of money for them.
Holy crap BP, >> $4001 for 15 regualar seeds And I compare that with the $60 I paid for my Chemo. A fool and his money... Marapa, So when are you going do the C99 thing and start selling purebred Alien Dog? Sterces.
Holy shit BP, I had no idea! That Santa's a special dude. I'm headed out at halftime of the Texas/Cinci game to give those little Adogs a treat! Vox, there are at least a few efforts at that out on the web.Trad databases like SeedFinder, wikis like WeedWiki, somehwere there's one with a cool graphic front end you can move around, but I've lost the bookmark; there are a lot of efforts at family trees like for Chemdawg. There's really an unbelievable amount of information out there these days...and even more noise! I still like searches (Ixquick, no Google for me) for whatever strain I am obsessing about. BP, are you shitting me? 4K for 15 seeds! off to mix up some aloe and lavender spritzer for those little alien pooches
decided to do a little lurkin around the city,nice informative journal and a good collection of funk,my smile in veg had a real deep astringent pepper smell to it before the termites had there way with her,that macro you got of it looks splendid.
I must be worth several hundred thousand using this as a guideline. I wonder what I could hawk my seeds for. Heck - I know how to take a photo with a DSLR and run it through Adobe Photoshop's Unsharpen Mask 6 times to increase the visual effect of the trichomes - Duck Soup! Color correction? I'm an A.C.E. (Adobe Certified Expert) in Photoshop - I could teach classes on it. All I would really need would be knee-pads to secure a seat at Glenn's House of Greed & Stupidity - both of them. I would probably go with a company name like 'House of Dawgz' and all I would really need are seed names that have the 'hook' to increase market penetration. LD Certified Gunk Hater
Like cocaine! Haw damn it!!! I WANT IT!!! ill give six hundred bajillion-zillion! But i only want regular seeds so i can cross it with my hawaiian snow LMFAO