Second Grow - Both mixed media and hydro schizophrenic grow

Discussion in 'Micro Grows' started by JerryInDFW, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. #1 JerryInDFW, Jan 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2014
    Finally decided to start another grow. My last effort kind of came out fucked, despite appearing absolutely gorgeous. If interested, see:
    Anyway, I tried to do too many things last time, and kept changing things up. Typical rookie mistakes. I'm still working with limited light and space, but this time around, I've decided to say fuck it to mixed spectrum, since I'm using CFL's. I've still got that Dealzer Crap Crop 6 36" box. I've stuck 3 Seedsman regular "White Widow" in the supplied rock wool, using their hydro setup. Not going to fuck with trying to raise and lower the tank. It's just there, and will start light nutes once I get leaves. No point in posting a photo of that box. See my last grow attempt if you're wondering what one looks like.
    This is a schizophrenic grow. In the TV armoire I modded, I've got another hydro tub with a couple of Nirvana regular Blackberry seeds in GroDan blocks. These, and the White Widows are basically sativa. The five smartpots have my last 4 Dr. Greenthumb Freedom 35 seeds. These are feminized , and mostly indica. Of course being feminized, they're also autos. The last smartpot just has a random bag weed seed. These are in mixed coco and perlite at around 50/50, and I'm starting the seeds in coco discs. They're sitting in a tray loaded with big ass perlite.
    Primary lighting is a 96w T4, and later, I'll supplement with 148w of CFL for several hours a day. Still can't quite overcome the heat issues running the extra CFL's, unless I open the doors.
    I expect that if I get any female Blackberry plants, they'll quickly outgrow that TV armoire, and the F35 should be a little shorter. I'm prepared to move all the lighting and plants to a closet if things get too unruly.
    Feel free to chime in of offer and suggestions. Please don't be a troll, and I have NO patience for douchebags.


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  2. Hi jerry! I followed your last grow a bit. I am Excited to see the F35 again, and especially in coco/perlite because that's what I am running right now but I am soon starting the transition to organic.What kind of coco did you buy? Did you rinse it and charge it? What nutes will you be using? Also what are the average temps in both your boxes? Hope to see you excel this time I'm subbed!Sent from my iPhone using Grasscity Forum
  3. #3 JerryInDFW, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2014
    Hey Ding,
    Just thought I'd shoot you an FYI when I started back up.
    The Coco I bought was GH Organic Coco-Tek. I didn't rinse it, because I didn't know you were supposed to. As for charging it, I dunno what that is. I've been away from the forums for quite a while, and don't have the time to devote to reading them. I still have the same GH nutes, and since I have the coco, a jug of cal-mag. To be honest, I was looking for a LOT less fiddling this time around. Basically feed 'em, turn 'em, watch for males, and maybe do a little LST on any sativa fems that show up. Not going to touch the F35's this time, just let 'em rip. As I mentioned, I'm likely to move them to the same closet that has the Dealzer box when they get too big. Might order another light source for the flowering stage in the closet if I can find one that doesn't need any special wiring. Maybe LED. I've seen some killer results on youtube, and the heat issue would be reduced.
    If I recall correctly, the Dealzer thing gets to hanging around 80. The modded armoire gets to nearly 90 near the lights when they're all on, but better down low. So I'll be pouring on the watts for the veg stage, probably 20/24 for the T4, and maybe 8/24 of the extra CFL's. I was going to only fill those smartpots halfway, but that seemed like not enough soil, which is prompting the decision to move 'em later. I have the individual trays for them which only give me a couple more inches of clearance, so useless in the box.
    I looked at the WW earlier, and all three had popped. They have a days head start on the others, since it took forever for that coco to break up. Haven't looked at the others yet.
  4. #4 Dingus, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2014
    i feel you completely on less fiddling and things. Was it pre expanded or did you expand it from the block? I'm only asking because a lot of bricked coco is really high in ec out of the package. Some people have success with growing it without rinsing and others do not. My pH was all off without rinsing and charging. Rinsing and charging is when after expanding you basically flush it 2-3x its gallon size, but you do it with really low veg nute like 1/8th strength I'm not sure what this would be in ppms  + 1ml calmag.
    You've really got to get those temperatures down in the armoire. I've reduced the wattages of cfls in my cabinets because i realized the temperature was slowing growth. To get good growth ya really need the whole environment to be good. My cfl cabs have shown a lot of improvement since I lowered wattage and added more fans. I place my humidity/temp monitor thing right up between the top foliage and the lights to get an accurate reading of the canopy. 
    The coco was the compressed stuff. I had no idea about the extra rinsing and nute thing. Suppose I should have checked, but the horse is kind of out of the barn now, so I'm gonna just wing it. I'll figure out a fix for it later today.
    I did notice the Blackberry seeds had popped yesterday evening.
    Been looking around for an LED light for the closet to use in the flowering stage, instead of moving the lights in and out of the big box. The armoire is cool enough for starting & vegging, especially if I just mostly use the T4 and crack the doors. It was okay last go round for that much. With only the T4 the temps are fine. Got my mind on a 90-135w UFO type of LED, and maybe a grow tent while I'm at it. I can squeeze in a 3x3 with no problem, and they're pretty reasonable. Still shopping. Anyway, adding the tent and LED would allow me a perpetual grow setup. I've already ordered some fem seeds for next go. Gotta go pay a visit to the school. Later.
  6. Found an okay deal on eBay for a 32"X32"X63" grow tent, which is absolutely perfect for the space I have available in my walk-in closet. Good for either the smartpots (On round trays) or hydro. Still looking about for a 90-135w LED for a light source, which will eliminate any heat and weight issues. Got my eye on a couple different ones, and am just trying to decide on which spectrum mix to order.
    6" fans and controllers are inexpensive enough, and I'm not too worried (Yet) about smell leaking out of the closet. If it does, I'll just do what I did last time and blame the neighbors,
    I've seen some good deals on a pair of 135w  LED UFO style fixtures that were reasonable. Just not sure I can get them to sell me one mostly red along with one broad spectrum for the same price. I'm going to email them and ask. Regardless, a couple hundred watts and change of LED ought to be plenty for 7 sq. ft, and give me some nice, solid buds. Will probably turn the crap crop box into a cloner down the road, which is something I originally had in the back of my mind when I build the armoire. Actually used it to make a few F35 clones, so it works well for that, no problem.
    In the seed pipeline:
    Aurora Indica feminized
    Indoor Mix feminized
    <strong>10 mixed seeds for free</strong>
    These are from Nirvana in Holland.
    So, I'm very excited about actually getting a perpetual grow going!
    Stay tuned.

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  7. #7 JerryInDFW, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
    Fixin' to figure out the ph of that coco/perlite mix. :confused_2:
    In the meantime, I ordered a couple of fixtures. I was initially thinking of the 90-135w range, but decided I'd rather not fool with minimums, especially after I remembered I have a couple of good checks coming in next month. The tent and LED's are for the flowering stage. Looking around, there's so much information on lights out there, your brain kind of locks up after a while. I just said "Fuck it," and tried to find as full a spectrum I could manage in my price range. Ended up ordering 2 Toplinkinc 10-Band 300W LED Grow Panels. I want some solid buds. I did look at the 5w LED fixtures, but they're really pricey, and I didn't see where I'd get that much more bang for the buck with a 5w fixture.
    Specs for the curious:
    Color         Nm            Beam Angle   Led qty
    Yellow         580           90                     5
    Orange        610           90                     5
    Red             630           90                     5
    Red             680           120                   60
    Blue            460            120                  10
    Blue            430            120                   4
    White          14000k      120                    2
    White          2800k        120                    2
    UV               410           120                    1
    IR                730            120                   1
    Total:                                                  100
    Scored online. These two fixtures should be adequate for that 7 Sq.ft. grow tent. No real idea about what the CFL, HPS or MH equivalents are. Seems that if you ask two people, you get 3 opinions. So, see the "Fuck it" above. Should be enough.
    I'll order a fan and stuff after I see how the setup ends up situated in my closet.
    A little later.....
    So I took some of the coco/perlite mixture and put it in some neutral water. I filtered that after stiring for a while. That filtered runoff checked in at about 6.25. So I'm not gonna fool with it. I did take the starter discs out of the smart pots and put them in a basin with water, since the F35 weren't doing anything.
    The White Widows are coming along just fine.

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  8. 6.25 is ok, a little high but coco buffers to around 6 anyway. sweet LED's sounds good man
  9. #9 JerryInDFW, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
    Yeah, thanks.
    I'm hoping for some kick ass stuff this time around. I might throw one of the F35's in there as soon as I set up, just to see what happens.
  10. Just wondering if anyone lurking out there might have any experience with grow tent ventilation.
    The tent I ordered works out to a cubic meter and change of volume. Seems to me that a 6 inch fan/filter combo is going to be overkill, and big, while a 4 inch setup would be plenty, considering that small of a volume. I would prefer to keep all the equipment inside the tent. Even with two LED panels (2 X 300 Watt), I don't believe heat will be enough of an issue to need a 6 inch setup.
    I might even add CO2 if I can find a setup for a steal, but that's a big maybe, and not yet a consideration.
  11. [quote name="JerryInDFW" post="19422491" timestamp="1390927128"]Just wondering if anyone lurking out there might have any experience with grow tent ventilation.The tent I ordered works out to a cubic meter and change of volume. Seems to me that a 6 inch fan/filter combo is going to be overkill, and big, while a 4 inch setup would be plenty, considering that small of a volume. I would prefer to keep all the equipment inside the tent. Even with two LED panels (2 X 300 Watt), I don't believe heat will be enough of an issue to need a 6 inch setup. I might even add CO2 if I can find a setup for a steal, but that's a big maybe, and not yet a consideration.[/quote] if you've already ordered the tent and the lights then definitely hold for a sec before getting a fan. You may not need a fatty inline fan like the rest of us have. Once you receive your tent and lights set em up and turn em on for about a half hour or so and then check temperatures in the tent. Check what the temps are all over: the ground, immediately under the lights, above the lights, 5-6" under the lights (especially, this is the one that matters it's your canopy temp) if everything is under 80 I would say you don't need a fat fan. If you don't end up buying a inline fan then I would recommend buying PC fans. I buy mine from they say what the CFM is for most of their PC fans. I would buy 2-4 4" strong PC fans and mount them around your tent wherever you think is best to actively be moving the air around. Otherwise you could get a mold/mildew problem possibly. From there you can add co2. You can't really have co2 with an inline fan unless the inline fan is totally separate, like for example my inline fan only pulls air through ducting and my cool tubes, not from inside the grow area. If your fan is extracting from your grow area all your co2 will go bye bye lolSent from my iPhone using Grasscity Forum
    I stopped by one of the hydro stores this afternoon, hoping to actually eyeball some of the stuff, and maybe see some tent setups. Unfortunately, they're fixin' to move to a more prominent location, in anticipation of decriminalization, and have been packing up the static displays. I spoke to one of the people who runs a (Bigger) tent with LED's, and he's not running as many watts as I plan on, and was suitably impressed. He has a similar panel, and claimed that if he really needed to, he could get by with just a table fan moving air around in the tent, and the the plants could touch the LED's and not burn, but that would block the light. Huh!
    But I did get an opportunity to looks at a few different fans and filters. I could probably get by with one of those cheap, Home DePot inline booster fans and a filter. I've seen some okay-ish deals on 4" combos, with the consensus around GC being that 4" should be plenty, as well as taking care of any potential heating issues. I have computer fans on the armoire, and they just do not move enough air, IMO. Besides, I kind want as professional as possible setup in the space available, so no cutting corners.
    But your advice is good regarding testing the temps everywhere in the tent. I have one of those pillar fans I'm not using which I planned to throw in for circulation when the girls got large, and a smaller table fan for starting out. I have the indoor/outdoor thermometer/hygrometer deal I can use to check things out quickly, and I'll pick something up for a more permanent install later. Since I'm not running a hot bulb, I shouldn't need to pull too much air from outside. I'm told the idea with a tent is to maintain negative pressure to keep the odor in. Personally, I love it, but those freaking indicas get loud. The downside to waiting to buy is that it's an extra 3-4 days waiting for yet another delivery. Since I ordered full spectrum lights, I figured to put at least a couple of the feminized plants in right away. I can do that, I suppose if the lower temp is under 80, In fact, that sounds like a plan. I could always buy local. If I show that shop an online package, they'll try and match it. They're pretty good about staying competitive.
    The CO2 thing was simply because I had it in my head for some reason you only supplied it during night hours. I had thought I'd put the exhaust fan and the CO2 feed on timers, so that after the fans kicked off, the CO2 would come online. Guess I need to do a little more reading up on that.
  13. Ya I wasn't totally sure how much heat the LEDs actually give off. Perhaps a tower fan or a medium-large oscillating floor fan would be better than PC fans. I was just recommending them because they work wonders for me, i'm sorry to hear that they weren't so good for you. It really depends on which ones you get because literally they all are different. I went through outletPC's choices and bought the highest CFM ones for price. I recently purchased two 140mm high cfm fans and have placed them under my 250w HID's and they keep the canopy very cool in combination with my large oscillating floor fan. 
    A booster fan probably would be enough depending on the CFM. At one square meter you really don't need much ventilation. Thats 27ft^3
    I think plants don't use co2 at night, only during the day. You would need to recirculate your air and cool it at the same time to use co2 effectively. My flowering setup is closed but not like tightly sealed. I was thinking about buying one of those co2 bags that supposedly just give off co2 when you add a little water or something.
  14. I found this interesting, not so much for the comparison, but that I didn't' see any filter on the LED grow. Of course, these guys seem to be selling those LED fixtures.
  15. First Mistake: Minor
    I put those F35 seeds in those coco starters, and set them on top of the smartpots. When I added a bit of water to those disks, I washed some of those itty-bitty F35 seeds right out to the smart pot. One was still in the disk, and I managed to spot another one among the coco and perlite.. I transferred those two to 2" GroDan blocks. Fook. I'm hoping I'll just get a pleasant surprise out of two of those pots at some point down the road. Just in case, I spread the remains of those coco disks on the smartpots.
    It ain't all bad:
    The 3 regular White Widows (Hydro) all had a couple of inches of root. I really don't care for the rock wool things that came with the Crap Crop box. What a fucking mistake it was buying that. I could have scored a decent, entire tent starter system for the price, and been happily toking away now, using the armoire as a starter box. I cut down some blocks to fit those little holes, made sure the hulls were off, and got them going with a little 2700k light in the box.Once I see a bit more green, I'll up the wattage. Timer set for 18/6.
    The regular Blackberries <span style="font-family:'times new roman', times, serif;"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);">(Hydro) are fine. All I've done to those is so far to make sure the heads were clear of the blocks. Still in the dark. Probably will move the seeds to a dark closet tomorrow, so I can get some light on the BB's. Don't feel like fooling with the timers tonight.</span></span>
    Since I might be out a couple of F35's, I took the opportunity to start a WW and a BB, destined for the smartpots.
    Been watching YouTube vids. I noticed that many of the LED setups in tents I saw do not have any filter/fan/exhaust setup. They only have small circulating fans. The ones with a decent clamp can be stuck anywhere on the poles. So it's definitely hold off on the fan and filter until I see what I get after setup. I could probably put together a CO2 sensor/controller, regulator and maybe a 10 lb. tank for in the neighborhood of $250.00. But wouldn't need that for a few weeks at the earliest.
    I looked at those CO2 bags, but was unimpressed. The only ones who seem to like them are the people selling them. At least CO2 tank refills are readily available locally in numerous places. Meanwhile, if I see a cheap tank, I'll grab it.
  16. like the perspective there ??? I look at it as they say opinions are like assholes everybody's got one ( although I have two & mines the only one that matters opinions that is ) you seem fairly intuitive so I am looking forward to your new project
    Good Luck
    Yep, and thanks.
    Some debate about the amount of heat those LED's will generate. I've seen replies to "Not much," to "None whatsoever," which seems impossible from a physics standpoint. Must be something there, since they build in heat sinks.The first one should drop tomorrow, and I'll plug it in and see for myself. I'm a little more concerned about available amperage on that circuit than heat at the moment.
  18. #18 JerryInDFW, Jan 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2014
    January 30, 2014
    The first of my two LED panels I ordered from Toplink arrived a little while ago. Naturally, I couldn't wait to open the box!
    First impressions: Appears very well constructed - solid and well made. Well packed. The case is metal, with zero flex. 3 essentially silent fans. 100 3w LED's. Universal voltage and cycles. LED's are behind a panel, but I expect that's a good thing, considering what a klutz I can be. I'm 6'2”, and do bump my head occasionally. Oddly, not a bit of paper in the box about warnings, usage, etc. Came with fixed length metal cable hangers. Unfortunately, they come out around 3 feet. Fine for starting out, but I'll need to get some adjustable ones. Weight is minimal, @4.8kg or 10 pounds. As previously noted, 10-Band Full spectrum. When I selected this model, I was careful to insure that all the bands the so-called experts recommended were included. Hard to locate one that hits that yellow 580 band along with a small amount of IR and UV.
    After plugging in, I immediately wondered if you're supposed to have special eyewear when you're around one of these. This sucker is fucking bright! I was very concerned about how many amps this thing was going to pull, thinking it must be horrendous. Put it on the Kill-A-Watt, and was stunned to see it fluctuate between only 1.39 to 1.41 amps! Call it 1.4 - excellent.
    Heat seemed minimal. The air being exhausted through the top fans was close to room temperature. It was a little warm directly below the LED array, which I fully expected, and I wouldn't want any colas laying up against it, but 4 inches below was fine. A circulating fan blowing at fixture base level will eliminate any heat issues.
    So, IMO, this fixture is so far worth every penny, in spite the niggling disappointment about the hangers. If I were using these in a big grow, those furnished hangers would probably be perfect for a commercial grow application.
    Okay, I understand that this isn't a “Name” brand, and yeah, made in China, etc, etc., and not a “Dragon Breath XL Super-Grow Ninja Stealth 1000” model, but I figure why pay for a fancy sticker and full page magazine ads? As long as it produces, which remains to be seen, but I'm confident. A lot of folks still don't appreciate that many of the name brands come off the same production line with the same parts as the lesser known brands. For the name droppers, this uses Bridgelux LED's.
    I should be able to get away with just circulating fans, since the install closet stays cool, even in summer.
    I'm excited, and can't wait to get going. The first thing in the tent will likely be some outdoor herb and pepper seeds to start up, since there will be space enough for that.
    As I don't think I'll need any exhaust fan and filter, I found and ordered a decently priced CO2 Flow Meter, set up for hydroponics, so I'm beginning the process of putting that setup together. Going to end up being a CO2 grow after all. Not fucking about this go round. Saw two different monitor/regulators. The “Cheaper” one pulls 10 amps (Seriously?), has two components, and you need to put it on a timer. The next higher price has three PPM settings, with 1500ppm being the highest, and sports a built-in light sensor. No light, no CO2. This is just what the doctor ordered. I like no brainer stuff, and worth the few extra bucks. Bonus: It only pulls half the amps of the cheaper model.
    The little sprouts there are the Nirvana Blackberry plants.
    20140130_155636.jpg 20140130_155631.jpg
    Hardware Porn:
    20140130_140207.jpg 20140130_140428.jpg 20140130_140714.jpg 20140130_141421.jpg 20140130_141357.jpg 20140130_141600.jpg 20140130_141623.jpg
    (NOTE: There appears to be a dark LED on that panel. It's illuminated, but the camera isn't picking it up. Pretty sure it's the one (1) UV LED)
  19. looks good! depending on your results with this grow I may eventually pick up the same one. Like you I don't have the money to shell out for a crazy top of the line new 2013-2014 led light. What are the dimensions of the lamp and also the light footprint and how much was it?
  20. #20 JerryInDFW, Jan 31, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2014
    They didn't supply any exact footprint specs, but similar units come in at 4'x4', but I can't tell from what height. They furnish some metric specs: 1M/19.63,1.5M/32.15, 2M/58.06. Makes little sense if that's in centimeters. I probably only needed one fixture for that size tent. I've seen a pretty wide range of prices on eBay for these. You should be able to score one for about USD$160.00. Ya gotta watch and check spectra carefully, because a similar housing might have different light bands. I've seen an identical fixture listed for 3 bills.
    With only a 63" tent, I'm going to end up having to mount them pretty high toward the end. Depending on how this grow goes, I may get a bigger tent later in the year. I'll maintain clones of any of the regular females that turn up.

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